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So the consensus on Shanny's #14 is a no?


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#61 Nev

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:50 AM

Yes, the bar is very high, not a lifetime Wing, changed sides and is working on destroying the game for the league.

Easily an HHoFer but not one deserving to hang there with Develchio, Howe, Y, Lindsay
 

 

Neither was Howe, neither was Lindsay, neither was Sawchuck.....

 

I agree that Shanny doesn't deserve to go up, but the not-a-lifetime-wing thing is bogus.


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#62 Crymson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:54 AM

 

Neither was Howe, neither was Lindsay, neither was Sawchuck.....

 

I agree that Shanny doesn't deserve to go up, but the not-a-lifetime-wing thing is bogus.

 

It's a necessity for modern-era jersey retirements.


They couldn't wait to raise a couple numbers up so they just blew their wad? Bleewaaaahhhhh! DAneykO!!!

 

I think that the retirement of Bourque's number in Colorado takes the cake for most absurd, and his was the organization's first retired number. He played a whopping 128 games for the Avalanche.



#63 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:52 AM

 
It's a necessity for modern-era jersey retirements.

 
I think that the retirement of Bourque's number in Colorado takes the cake for most absurd, and his was the organization's first retired number. He played a whopping 128 games for the Avalanche.


They wanted to get the ball rolling lol

#64 TheXym

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:57 AM

I took it as a dissing of the Bruins' miserly ways at the time. It could also have been viewed as disrespectful to the guys who spent a much longer time there that deserved it (such as Sakic, Forsberg, Roy) by setting the bar for retirement so seemingly low. He did not play there nearly long enough, and it reeks of the franchise being desperate to put a number in the rafters. Borque may have won a Cup with the slush, but I'd think that the vast majority of hockey fans consider him a Bruin.
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#65 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:00 AM

I took it as a dissing of the Bruins' miserly ways at the time. It could also have been viewed as disrespectful to the guys who spent a much longer time there that deserved it (such as Sakic, Forsberg, Roy) by setting the bar for retirement so seemingly low. He did not play there nearly long enough, and it reeks of the franchise being desperate to put a number in the rafters. Borque may have won a Cup with the slush, but I'd think that the vast majority of hockey fans consider him a Bruin.


Ya... I was joking

#66 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:39 AM

So is it safe to say that the "high bar" aspect works against him the most?



#67 Nev

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:26 AM

 

It's a necessity for modern-era jersey retirements.


 

 

Says who?  Where is the stone tablet upon which this law is inscribed?


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#68 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:54 PM

 

It's a necessity for modern-era jersey retirements.


 

I think that the retirement of Bourque's number in Colorado takes the cake for most absurd, and his was the organization's first retired number. He played a whopping 128 games for the Avalanche.

 Absolutely it does.  It's an absolute joke that they retire his number when they already have guys like Sakic and Forsberg to retire along with Roy.  New organizations trying to create history too fast.  Daneyko's was just funny.  That's like the Avs retiring Adam Foote's number.  It's just laughable.


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#69 Crymson

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:33 PM

 

Says who?  Where is the stone tablet upon which this law is inscribed?

 

Says the Red Wings, and the imaginary stone tablet's rules are evident. Other teams have their own guidelines.



#70 EssexWinger

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:41 PM

To be really honest, if we keep retiring numbers... we will run out, so many amazing players from that era. On the other hand, 91... 14... and a handful more from a certain line wouldn't hurt. I would have loved to see this 90's line being retired as a line, they were amazing. They were the foundations of how I wanted to play hockey when I was a kid.

 

Yes, perhaps some players might be a bit of a di*k, however they often have foundations (+money for charity) and a heart/soul/passion/skill for the game. It is what they contribute to the club and society what we should value, not if we would have a pint with him in the pub.

 

Btw, hello. I am new here and from the United Kingdom. Winger since 1993.



#71 The Axe

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:09 PM

To be really honest, if we keep retiring numbers... we will run out, so many amazing players from that era. On the other hand, 91... 14... and a handful more from a certain line wouldn't hurt. I would have loved to see this 90's line being retired as a line, they were amazing. They were the foundations of how I wanted to play hockey when I was a kid.
 
Yes, perhaps some players might be a bit of a di*k, however they often have foundations (+money for charity) and a heart/soul/passion/skill for the game. It is what they contribute to the club and society what we should value, not if we would have a pint with him in the pub.
 
Btw, hello. I am new here and from the United Kingdom. Winger since 1993.


Hey dude. Welcome. I agree. Feds should go up.

#72 Nev

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:52 AM

 

Says the Red Wings, and the imaginary stone tablet's rules are evident. Other teams have their own guidelines.

 

Says the Red Wings where?  If Yzerman convinced Lidstrom to come out of retirement and play 1 season for TB, would #5 suddenly never get retired?  I don't think so.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#73 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:56 AM

The high standards shouldn't come down, but they should have some sort of honorable mentions, where they don't retire the number to the rafters, but where notable long-time Wings can be honored, like Shanahan, Osgood, Holmstrom, McCarty, Draper, Maltby, etc.
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#74 Crymson

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:29 AM

 

Says the Red Wings where?  If Yzerman convinced Lidstrom to come out of retirement and play 1 season for TB, would #5 suddenly never get retired?  I don't think so.

 

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. I do agree that they'd probably still gift a jersey retirement to a player who had a season or two elsewhere. That said, Shanahan played less than half 0of his career with the Red Wings, so your point doesn't have much validity here.



#75 Opie

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:50 AM

 

Says the Red Wings where?  If Yzerman convinced Lidstrom to come out of retirement and play 1 season for TB, would #5 suddenly never get retired?  I don't think so.

 

What is to stop Chris Chelios from wearing a 5 jersey in a beer league and thus no longer allowing the WIngs to retire it?

 

You argument is as valid as mine above, neither of them are in the realm of possible. (if you think about Lids you will realize there is no way he is coming back, let alone to another team)

 

The very thing that made Lids a lifelong Wing is the same thing that would prevent him from playing one season in TB.

 

That is what you are missing, Lids could have gone to Boston to play with Chara (Both talked about wanting to play together) probably got more money with any team than he did with the Wings.

 

BUT...

Like Yzerman before him, Lids embodied what it means to be a Red Wing, and that includes taking less personally to achieve more as a team.


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"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

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#76 Euro_Twins

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:40 AM

 
What is to stop Chris Chelios from wearing a 5 jersey in a beer league and thus no longer allowing the WIngs to retire it?
 
You argument is as valid as mine above, neither of them are in the realm of possible. (if you think about Lids you will realize there is no way he is coming back, let alone to another team)
 
The very thing that made Lids a lifelong Wing is the same thing that would prevent him from playing one season in TB.
 
That is what you are missing, Lids could have gone to Boston to play with Chara (Both talked about wanting to play together) probably got more money with any team than he did with the Wings.
 
BUT...
Like Yzerman before him, Lids embodied what it means to be a Red Wing, and that includes taking less personally to achieve more as a team.


Some people just have a profound love for the game, and remember who took the chance and got them to where they were. Not knocking other players, everyones situations are different, but when a team spends a lot of time and money developing you into a star, that should definitely play a big role in what you sign for and who you sign with. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, lidstrom, could have all made more money elsewhere, but they were loyal and not greedy. That is why they led our team to multiple Stanley cups (Zetterberg only one) guys like Sammy, huds, flip, feds, and others obviously decided what was most important to them, money.

#77 StormJH1

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:33 PM

The very thing that made Lids a lifelong Wing is the same thing that would prevent him from playing one season in TB.

 

That is what you are missing, Lids could have gone to Boston to play with Chara (Both talked about wanting to play together) probably got more money with any team than he did with the Wings.

 

BUT...

Like Yzerman before him, Lids embodied what it means to be a Red Wing, and that includes taking less personally to achieve more as a team.

 

Each one of your statements is true individually, and they add to the qualifications for a guy having his # retired.  But to extrapolate each of those into a rule that ALL future nominees must follow like checklist?  Sorry, no.  Jarome Iginla should have his number retired in Calgary, and he'll have played on at least 2 other teams hopping around looking for a contender.  I really don't fault him for it either, and neither do most Calgary fans.

 

Eras are different, business differs by era, and every player's career is different.  What if the Wings had botched the '89 draft and didn't end up with Lidstrom or Fedorov.  Maybe the Wings make a few first rounds, get bounced, and are back out of the playoffs.  Maybe some of those veteran players we later acquire don't want to play for the Dead Wings.  You can tell me, with full certainty, that a mid-30's Steve Yzerman who never won anything here, NEVER would have left because he just loved Detroit so much?  I don't think anyone can know that.  Yzerman deserves the praise he gets, but he wasn't the only one determining his situation.  And the Red Wings organziation, with the help of almost a dozen other Hall of Fame players here and there helped to make that situation pretty darn nice.

 

Plus, as has been mentioned, Howe, Sawchuk and other retired numbers didn't play their whole careers as Wings.



#78 Opie

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:05 PM

 

Each one of your statements is true individually, and they add to the qualifications for a guy having his # retired.  But to extrapolate each of those into a rule that ALL future nominees must follow like checklist?  Sorry, no.  Jarome Iginla should have his number retired in Calgary, and he'll have played on at least 2 other teams hopping around looking for a contender.  I really don't fault him for it either, and neither do most Calgary fans.

 

Eras are different, business differs by era, and every player's career is different.  What if the Wings had botched the '89 draft and didn't end up with Lidstrom or Fedorov.  Maybe the Wings make a few first rounds, get bounced, and are back out of the playoffs.  Maybe some of those veteran players we later acquire don't want to play for the Dead Wings.  You can tell me, with full certainty, that a mid-30's Steve Yzerman who never won anything here, NEVER would have left because he just loved Detroit so much?  I don't think anyone can know that.  Yzerman deserves the praise he gets, but he wasn't the only one determining his situation.  And the Red Wings organziation, with the help of almost a dozen other Hall of Fame players here and there helped to make that situation pretty darn nice.

 

Plus, as has been mentioned, Howe, Sawchuk and other retired numbers didn't play their whole careers as Wings.

 

 

Here we go:

 

1. I never said it would be for all teams, it is just the way it is done in Det. So your Iginla comparison is a moot point, much like saying because COL retired Ray Bourque's number Det should retire Shanny's.

 

But to play along:

 

IF Iginla was drafted by the Wings and left at the end of his career, maybe his number gets up there like Howe, however if Iginla was on the Wings, and as loyal to them as he was to Calgary. he more  than likely wins at least one cup and due to the org doing what they did for him, probably never leaves.

 

But the difference between them and the reason your comparison makes no sense is Shanny played for other teams both before and after the Wings, Iginla was drafted and only played for Calgary until the twilight of his career, never asking to be traded or complaining until they rebuilt yet again around him.

 

 

2. What people tend to forget about the different era's is the different owners. Many players left Detroit due to ownership being complete A-holes. I suggest reading "What it means to be a Red Wing". And you will realize many of those guys you mentioned above left due to the Norris family being complete and utter ****** Canoes!

If you do not have an understanding of how the Norris family ruled this organization you really should not comment on players leaving during that era and getting their #s retired.

 

3. You can speculate about what would have or would not have happened if Yzerman leaves or the Wings botch the draft, that does not change the fact that in the Illitch era in order to get your # retired you need to be the embodiment of what it means to be  Red Wing.  

 

If Yzerman leaves in his mid thirties with no cup, his number does not end up in the rafters, not saying he doesn't still go into the HOF, but he doesn't end up as THE Captain, and 19 is not in the rafters. Again though your argument is moot because Yzerman won a cup in his early 30's.

 

But the reverse is true as well, if Lids and Yzerman don't take pay cuts and don't make the sacrifices they made the Organization is not what it is.

 

That is what puts Yzerman and Lids in the rafters and guys like Ozzie, Draper, and Shanny will always be looking up at the rafters.

 

 

Edit: BTW; this is not my opinion on how # retirements should or will go after the Illitch family hands over the reigns, but is just my take on how they do it currently and why players in the past that may have played on other teams are in the rafters!


Edited by Opie, 08 August 2013 - 01:33 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#79 DickieDunn

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

Shanahan is not an iconic player in Detroit, although he was instrumental in the Cup runs he was here for. The players with their numbers retired are icons. That's the difference.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#80 The Axe

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:19 PM

Shanahan is not an iconic player in Detroit, although he was instrumental in the Cup runs he was here for. The players with their numbers retired are icons.That's the difference.


Agreed. Well said.





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