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Who do we Unload, reload on before the season starts?


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#21 ogreslayer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 07:39 PM

Thanks guys. Perhaps the Wings put Sammy and Bert on LTIR come October. Does that solve all our issues?

 

If the Wings could keep them on LTIR the whole season, it sure would.  Would also clear up more money than the other alternatives Kenny's looking at too I would think.



#22 The Axe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 07:44 PM

 
If the Wings could keep them on LTIR the whole season, it sure would.  Would also clear up more money than the other alternatives Kenny's looking at too I would think.


I bet this is the direction they are headed then. I just cant see 2 guys (Sammy and Bert) that the Wings have been good to holding the organization hostage. The players are probably going to act as assistant coaches/mentors this year while staying on LTIR and picking up a paycheck before being hired on as consultants next year.

#23 Son of a Wing

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 07:45 PM

I really don't see any of the vets getting sent to the minors (it's just not how the Wings do business) and I don't see us getting anything of value for our extra bottom six forwards. Especially with the amount of unsigned UFAs still available and the mindset of many teams to let their young players fill the holes.  Why would a team give up even a 7th rounder for Eaves when guys like Morrow, Cleary, Raymond, Grabovski, Latendresse, Brunner, Steckel, Boyes, Stewart etc are all still available.  Many at a cheaper price.  

 

The only scenario I really see happening is one or more of Helm, Sammy, Bert starting the year on LTIR and/or a swap for a cheaper borderline NHLer/journeyman AHLer with a 2-way contract. One who another team would like to dump while adding a guy like Eaves/Tootoo/Emmerton in return. I wouldn't even be surprised if we would have to send a pick along with them as cap space seems to be the biggest commodity right now.

 

Bottomline we're not getting picks in return for these guys.


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#24 Son of a Wing

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:03 PM

I bet this is the direction they are headed then. I just cant see 2 guys (Sammy and Bert) that the Wings have been good to holding the organization hostage. The players are probably going to act as assistant coaches/mentors this year while staying on LTIR and picking up a paycheck before being hired on as consultants next year.

 

They're not "holding the organization hostage". It's not their fault we signed to many forwards and are exceeding the cap. They want to play and contribute and they have every right to attempt to do so. The way you state it you seem to think going on LTIR is a choice.  You have to be declared by a physician to be unable to play for a minimum of 24 days or 10 games because you are "injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform your duties as a hockey player".  For the record Bertuzzi and Sammy both claim to be feeling great and are very excited for this season.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#25 ogreslayer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:14 PM

I really don't see any of the vets getting sent to the minors (it's just not how the Wings do business) and I don't see us getting anything of value for our extra bottom six forwards. Especially with the amount of unsigned UFAs still available and the mindset of many teams to let their young players fill the holes.  Why would a team give up even a 7th rounder for Eaves when guys like Morrow, Cleary, Raymond, Grabovski, Latendresse, Brunner, Steckel, Boyes, Stewart etc are all still available.  Many at a cheaper price.  

 

The only scenario I really see happening is one or more of Helm, Sammy, Bert starting the year on LTIR and/or a swap for a cheaper borderline NHLer/journeyman AHLer with a 2-way contract. One who another team would like to dump while adding a guy like Eaves/Tootoo/Emmerton in return. I wouldn't even be surprised if we would have to send a pick along with them as cap space seems to be the biggest commodity right now.

 

Bottomline we're not getting picks in return for these guys.

 

Less about getting anything back than clearing up space for better options on the roster.  That's again why I think that the Wings will end up having to retain some salary to potentially move someone like Tootoo.  Doubt teams could sign a Morrow or Cleary cheaper than trading a 7th rounder for Tootoo when the Wings are still paying a chunk of his salary.  One other option they have is to send Nyquist back down to GR but if they do, he'll have to be there for the season.  From what I remember, he has all of two games left in the NHL before his waiver exemption expires.  I seriously doubt though that Kenny would do that.  

 

And as far as sending vets to the minors, I do recall that's more than likely where Draper & Maltby would have ended up if they hadn't called it quits & moved into the front office.  They where both offered a "come to camp to try to play your way on the roster" contract by Kenny with the thought they would end up being player/mentors in GR if they didn't make it.  Both obviously chose retirement instead.  The problem in doing that with Sammy or Bert now, well other than the fact that they're already under contract, is that the Wings would only get cap relief of $100k per if they're sent to the minors.



#26 GoWings1905

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:21 PM

Emmerton is the obvious one to go. That obviously is entirely dependent on Helm's health. I really like Eaves, but I also believe the signing of Miller makes him redundant unfortunately. Tootoo doesn't seem to be real popular going forward, so I could see him being moved. Not sure I am really in favor of trading Tootoo, as he gives the Red Wings something they don't have. I don't care if they sit him in the playoffs again, but I would like his presence around over the course of 82 regular season games.

 

Sammy can find a nice comfy seat in the press box until that awful contract expires. It doesn't even have to be a comfy seat. He has no value or purpose on this team. I think Bertuzzi can still contribute at least. Big body that protects the puck and might get the Red Wings a few extra points in the shootout. Admittedly, I won't pleased though if Bertuzzi is taking away playing time from Nyquist and/or Tatar. 


 
 
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#27 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:24 PM

Sammy and Bertuzzi.  The two old guys who are injured and useless.  

 

Holland s*** all over himself with the Sammy contract, though.  A useless signing and a no-trade clause to boot.  Brilliant.  


 

They're not "holding the organization hostage". It's not their fault we signed to many forwards and are exceeding the cap. They want to play and contribute and they have every right to attempt to do so. The way you state it you seem to think going on LTIR is a choice.  You have to be declared by a physician to be unable to play for a minimum of 24 days or 10 games because you are "injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform your duties as a hockey player".  For the record Bertuzzi and Sammy both claim to be feeling great and are very excited for this season.

 

I agree.  
 

Not Sammy's fault Holland was stupid enough to give him that contract.  What was Sammy supposed to do?  Turn it down?  


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#28 ogreslayer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:33 PM

Sammy and Bertuzzi.  The two old guys who are injured and useless.  

 

Holland s*** all over himself with the Sammy contract, though.  A useless signing and a no-trade clause to boot.  Brilliant.  


 

I agree.  
 

Not Sammy's fault Holland was stupid enough to give him that contract.  What was Sammy supposed to do?  Turn it down?  

 

To be fair, it does look like Kenny's plan all along was in essence to pay Sammy 1 2/3rds seasons of salary to play for 1 year & then do a compliance buyout.  If not for Sammy's "injury" blocking the buyout, he would be gone already.



#29 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:37 PM

 

To be fair, it does look like Kenny's plan all along was in essence to pay Sammy 1 2/3rds seasons of salary to play for 1 year & then do a compliance buyout.  If not for Sammy's "injury" blocking the buyout, he would be gone already.

 

He's an old man and has been injured before.  It was a poor move at the time, not just hindsight being 20/20.  

 

Signing Cleary would be a similar mistake.  

 

 

We need to purge these old-timers and let the kids play.   


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#30 Son of a Wing

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:57 PM

 

Less about getting anything back than clearing up space for better options on the roster.  That's again why I think that the Wings will end up having to retain some salary to potentially move someone like Tootoo.  Doubt teams could sign a Morrow or Cleary cheaper than trading a 7th rounder for Tootoo when the Wings are still paying a chunk of his salary.  One other option they have is to send Nyquist back down to GR but if they do, he'll have to be there for the season.  From what I remember, he has all of two games left in the NHL before his waiver exemption expires.  I seriously doubt though that Kenny would do that.  

 

And as far as sending vets to the minors, I do recall that's more than likely where Draper & Maltby would have ended up if they hadn't called it quits & moved into the front office.  They where both offered a "come to camp to try to play your way on the roster" contract by Kenny with the thought they would end up being player/mentors in GR if they didn't make it.  Both obviously chose retirement instead.  The problem in doing that with Sammy or Bert now, well other than the fact that they're already under contract, is that the Wings would only get cap relief of $100k per if they're sent to the minors.

 

I agree with you that we are very likely to have to retain salary in a potential deal. Merely because we're at such a disadvantage in negotiating a deal with our roster/cap predicament. That may even negate us to include a pick.  No chance Nyquist goes to Grand Rapids though.  That would be an absolute last resort.

 

In regards to Draper and Maltby's situation I suspect that was a bit different than Bert and Sammy.  I just feel the there's a different expectation of these two in their final year than there was with those two. I honestly feel Holland believes Bert and Sammy can be effective top 6/9 forwards and put up points.  That wasn't the case with Drapes and Maltby in their final year. Whether Holland is right on that...well we'll see. I'm not banking on them.


 

He's an old man and has been injured before.  It was a poor move at the time, not just hindsight being 20/20.  

 

Signing Cleary would be a similar mistake.  

 

 

We need to purge these old-timers and let the kids play.   

 

THIS for sure. We may just have to wait another year....Seems like we say that every year....sigh.


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#31 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:02 PM

If only Bertuzzi could be transported via time machine to 10 years ago.     :g:  

 

Exactly the type of player we need on this team.  


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#32 The Axe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:03 PM

 
He's an old man and has been injured before.  It was a poor move at the time, not just hindsight being 20/20.  
 
Signing Cleary would be a similar mistake.  
 
 
We need to purge these old-timers and let the kids play.   


I dont like the old guys, either.

#33 DickieDunn

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:15 AM

A guy isn't injury prone after one year. Samuelsson could have just as easily played 45 games and hit 25 points last year, and Bertuzzi could have scored 20 points. You sign as guy based on what you think he can do, not after you jump in your time machine and see what he will do. Bertuzzi and Samuelsson were signed for their size and because the team didn't think Tatar and Nyquist were ready. They weren't. If a vet had played like either of them then most people would be screaming for blood. Hell Brunner was better than either of them but people still complained about him. BTW, I love how hypocritical typical Detroit fan is about signing players. Bertuzzi is too old. Get Jagr instead. Samuelsson was hurt a lot one year he's injury prone. Lecavalier missed 20% of his games the last 3 years they should sign him to a multi-year contract.

Edited by DickieDunn, 14 August 2013 - 06:22 AM.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#34 Mikeal

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:46 AM

Bertuzzi and Samuelsson were signed for their size and because the team didn't think Tatar and Nyquist were ready. They weren't. If a vet had played like either of them then most people would be screaming for blood. Hell Brunner was better than either of them but people still complained about him. BTW, I love how hypocritical typical Detroit fan is about signing players. Bertuzzi is too old. Get Jagr instead. Samuelsson was hurt a lot one year he's injury prone. Lecavalier missed 20% of his games the last 3 years they should sign him to a multi-year contract.

 

When Bert is playing I think it really changes the team.  People really under rate his creativity and playmaking.  I'm not sure what Sammy will bring if he is healthy this year.  Doesn't sound like he is doing that well from what I've been reading.



#35 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:43 AM

A guy isn't injury prone after one year. Samuelsson could have just as easily played 45 games and hit 25 points last year, and Bertuzzi could have scored 20 points. You sign as guy based on what you think he can do, not after you jump in your time machine and see what he will do.Bertuzzi and Samuelsson were signed for their size and because the team didn't think Tatar and Nyquist were ready. They weren't. If a vet had played like either of them then most people would be screaming for blood. Hell Brunner was better than either of them but people still complained about him.BTW, I love how hypocritical typical Detroit fan is about signing players. Bertuzzi is too old. Get Jagr instead. Samuelsson was hurt a lot one year he's injury prone. Lecavalier missed 20% of his games the last 3 years they should sign him to a multi-year contract.


Ive been against Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, Sammy, and Cleary now for a while. Speed kills in hockey. If we were having a bowling tournament or telling Scandanavian jokes, then it would be another story.

#36 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:22 AM

Holland's said a few times that Nyquist *will* be re-signed.  Don't worry about that.  I'd rather not take Cleary again because there's no roster space and it'd negatively impact the development of Tatar/Nyquist by pushing them back in the depth chart.

 

Unload Eaves (bummer but there's no room) and Tootoo right off the bat.  Emmerton will have to stick around until they know for sure that Helm's back is fine.


For the record-- I think it sucks that they'd have to say goodbye to Eaves because Sammy can't be unloaded. I'd rather have Eaves for his versatility, aptitude at playing on the checking line and comparatively young age.  Bert is worth keeping around for another year because the Wings need the size and he's helpful in the shoot-out if nothing else ;)


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#37 The Axe

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:35 AM

Holland's said a few times that Nyquist *will* be re-signed.  Don't worry about that.  I'd rather not take Cleary again because there's no roster space and it'd negatively impact the development of Tatar/Nyquist by pushing them back in the depth chart.
 
Unload Eaves (bummer but there's no room) and Tootoo right off the bat.  Emmerton will have to stick around until they know for sure that Helm's back is fine.

For the record-- I think it sucks that they'd have to say goodbye to Eaves because Sammy can't be unloaded. I'd rather have Eaves for his versatility, aptitude at playing on the checking line and comparatively young age.  Bert is worth keeping around for another year because the Wings need the size and he's helpful in the shoot-out if nothing else ;)


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#38 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:06 AM

I'd hate to see Tootoo and Eaves who provide physical spark and energy moved, and then have Emmerton and Sammy stick around. Hopefully Kenny can pull a rabbit out of his hat.


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#39 LeftWinger

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:07 AM

You most definitely re-sign Nyquist....

 

Now, without Brunner and Cleary you still have 16 forwards and are at least $1.5M over the cap... The clear choice is dump Samuelsson somehow (that would solve the cap issue but not the roster one.)  You would still have 15 forwards, you would still need to trade someone.  With the thinking that Helm will be healthy and ready to go, this is what I do:

 

Choice #1:  Get rid of Sammy (either LTIR or waive or buyout....something) then trade Emmerton for a pick...

 

Choice #2: (if Sammy cannot be moved) You trade Eaves for a pick or future's (He and Miller are the same player.) Then (here is where it's gets creative for me!)  Trade Emmerton, Quincey and Monster to the Island for Visnovsky and a pick.  You call up Coreau to back up Howard. You dump your two forwards, an overpaid defenseman (who is not worth his contract) and a useless backup to dump $7.0M roughly in salary, then you acquire that legit 2nd pairing defenseman and bring up a solid, YOUNGER, backup who will have to split time with Mrazek and probably Patterson down there anyhow...thus adding roughly $5.7M in salary, giving you $1.3M in cap space...

 

...of course, even if you could dump Sammy on LTIR, I still like the trade.  Hell, I'd make that trade even if Sammy and Bert were LTIR!  Quincey is not worth his salary, he is a UFA next summer, he won't take a paycut and no way will Holland pay him more than $4M! Trade him now and get something in return for him! Monster did nothing to prove he was a good backup last season and Emmerton is expendable with Helm healthy.

 

edit: ugh....after re-reading my post, I forgot about the -$1.5M in cap space I started with, so even with the trade, I am still $200,000 in the hole....come on Kenny, get that brain working! I am spent. :D


Edited by LeftWinger, 14 August 2013 - 09:09 AM.

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#40 DickieDunn

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:07 AM

He won't be this year unless Helm has a set back.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!






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