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Keep Tootoo, Drop Cleary


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#21 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:57 PM

Yeah our 5'8" enforcer was going to strike fear in their hearts and change the series. They must have been so happy Tootoo sat out those games. Tootoo is worthless and a very poor signing. There's a reason he rode the bench, he was where he was supposed to be.

 

He's actually less worthless than our other 4th liners, because he adds an element they don't have.  He hits everything that moves and drops the gloves to spark the team.    

 

Holland proved last year that he didn't know what the hell he was doing.  He signed Sammy to a ridiculous contract, brought in Carlo Coca-Cola (with his injuries), and signed Tootoo, who did what was asked of him, yet still rode the bench (hence a bad signing by Holland).    

 

I still don't know what Tootoo should have done differently to impress Kenny.  He didn't score any less than our other 4th liners, and was the only guy who showed balls enough to stand up for his teammates.  Apparently, Holland and Babcock were expecting something else from him.  What that is, I'll never know.      


Edited by GMRwings1983, 21 August 2013 - 08:57 PM.

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#22 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:57 PM

Yeah our 5'8" enforcer was going to strike fear in their hearts and change the series. They must have been so happy Tootoo sat out those games. Tootoo is worthless and a very poor signing. There's a reason he rode the bench, he was where he was supposed to be.

oy gevalt

Apparently you are the one confused if you really think Tootoo was signed to be our enforcer.

A line of miller,eaves and emmerton strikes more fear than a line with tootoo in it. hahahahahahah

Tootoo did what he was suppose to do and like was said did it very well. Why he wasn't used in the playoffs especially after losing 2 in a row after Bickell and Shaw had their way with the wings will be one of life's great mysteries. 


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#23 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:00 PM

oy gevalt

Apparently you are the one confused if you really think Tootoo was signed to be our enforcer.

A line of miller,eaves and emmerton strikes more fear than a line with tootoo in it. hahahahahahah

Tootoo did what he was suppose to do and like was said did it very well. Why he wasn't used in the playoffs especially after losing 2 in a row after Bickell and Shaw had their way with the wings will be one of life's great mysteries. 

 

A line of Emmerton, Miller and Eaves is about as useless a 4th line as you can have.  Very similar players who don't provide anything that a 4th line should have.  They don't hit, aren't big guys that will wear defenders down and don't fight.

 

That might be OK when you're talking about a 4th line of Holmstrom, Larionov and Robitaille, but it's fair to say the skill levels don't compare here.

 

As I said earlier, our 4th line has no identity.  


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#24 turbowhistle86

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:28 PM

Ericsson is actually not half bad with his fists.


The last thing this team needs is one of our top D men in the box for a 1/4 of a period.

#25 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

 

He's actually less worthless than our other 4th liners, because he adds an element they don't have.  He hits everything that moves and drops the gloves to spark the team.    

 

Holland proved last year that he didn't know what the hell he was doing.  He signed Sammy to a ridiculous contract, brought in Carlo Coca-Cola (with his injuries), and signed Tootoo, who did what was asked of him, yet still rode the bench (hence a bad signing by Holland).    

 

I still don't know what Tootoo should have done differently to impress Kenny.  He didn't score any less than our other 4th liners, and was the only guy who showed balls enough to stand up for his teammates.  Apparently, Holland and Babcock were expecting something else from him.  What that is, I'll never know.      

Kenny doesn't decide who plays; Babcock does. There was an article at the end of the season where Babcock revealed that he butted heads with the front office over how certain players were used. This could have referred to many player (Abdelkader, White, NYquist possibly), but I think it most definately referred to Tootoo. Tootoo did do what Holland brought him in for, but it seems that Babcock was not on board.



#26 RedWingsDad

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:58 PM

Yeah our 5'8" enforcer was going to strike fear in their hearts and change the series. They must have been so happy Tootoo sat out those games. Tootoo is worthless and a very poor signing. There's a reason he rode the bench, he was where he was supposed to be.

 

Facts.... they matter. He is actually 5'9" 199lbs and is willing and able to lay out some big hits... you know, the things that strike fear into opposing teams. durk a durk!


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#27 GMRwings1983

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:34 PM

The last thing this team needs is one of our top D men in the box for a 1/4 of a period.

 

And this is a novelty in the NHL?  As I said in the post, way better defenders than Ericsson in NHL history have logged tons of fighting majors.  

 

I'm not asking him to fight 15 times this season, but he should be more willing to use his size.  


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#28 Jesusberg

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 12:27 PM

 

And this is a novelty in the NHL?  As I said in the post, way better defenders than Ericsson in NHL history have logged tons of fighting majors.  

 

I'm not asking him to fight 15 times this season, but he should be more willing to use his size.  

 

Way better defenders may have logged tons of fighting majors, but it's a different game now. Relatively, he means a ton to this current team, considering the rest of the defensive corps. He's their best defensive d-man, and the PK isn't the same when he's not on it. 



#29 Crymson

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 12:56 PM

I always chuckle at the obsession that some people still have with fighting these days. Hey, remember the time when enforcers were necessary to keep guys from running your stars? Gone. Remember the time when there was a fight ever game? Gone. Remember those guys who could both fight ably and put up a lot of goals? Gone. Believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, that era is over. Get past it.

 

 

Facts.... they matter. He is actually 5'9" 199lbs and is willing and able to lay out some big hits... you know, the things that strike fear into opposing teams. durk a durk!

 

"Strike fear," eh? We're talking about hockey here, not psychological warfare or the dark side of the force. These are professional athletes playing a sport; they are not fighting to the death in an arena. I doubt fear enters the equation.

 

 

And this is a novelty in the NHL?  As I said in the post, way better defenders than Ericsson in NHL history have logged tons of fighting majors.  

 

I'm not asking him to fight 15 times this season, but he should be more willing to use his size.  

 

The operative word is "NHL history." This is not the 1980s, or the 1990s, or even the 2000s. You keep wanting for yesteryear's game, but you're not going to get it.


Edited by Crymson, 22 August 2013 - 12:58 PM.


#30 RedWingsDad

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 01:23 PM

"Strike fear," eh? We're talking about hockey here, not psychological warfare or the dark side of the force. These are professional athletes playing a sport; they are not fighting to the death in an arena. I doubt fear enters the equation.

 

If you had read the scroll back for context, which I would recommend doing before posting a disagreeable post, you will find that it was the person I was quoting who mentioned the word 'fear', and I was simply playing off that.  That being said, since I’m not interested in playing a semantics game with you... "fear" will work just fine for me when describing the dynamic that can cause a momentum swing when a big hit is laid.


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#31 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

I always chuckle at the obsession that some people still have with fighting these days. Hey, remember the time when enforcers were necessary to keep guys from running your stars? Gone. Remember the time when there was a fight ever game? Gone. Remember those guys who could both fight ably and put up a lot of goals? Gone. Believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, that era is over. Get past it.

 

 

"Strike fear," eh? We're talking about hockey here, not psychological warfare or the dark side of the force. These are professional athletes playing a sport; they are not fighting to the death in an arena. I doubt fear enters the equation.

 

 

The operative word is "NHL history." This is not the 1980s, or the 1990s, or even the 2000s. You keep wanting for yesteryear's game, but you're not going to get it.

 

There's still plenty of fighters and enforcers in the game.  Not as much as before, but most teams carry some form of toughness.  You make it sound every team logs 10 fighting majors per season nowadays.  


 

Way better defenders may have logged tons of fighting majors, but it's a different game now. Relatively, he means a ton to this current team, considering the rest of the defensive corps. He's their best defensive d-man, and the PK isn't the same when he's not on it. 

 

5 or 6 fights a season is hardly too much to ask for  I'm just tired of seeing someone pushing our skilled players around after whistles and not having a big guy like Ericsson step in there and challenge the guy doing it.  

 

Hell, if I was playing against the Wings, I'd shove Datsyuk and Zetterberg around all the time, knowing I don't have to back it up with my fists.  Ericsson isn't going to scare people like a Probert, but it's still a big guy you'd have to fight against, versus not having to fight anyone for your actions.    


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#32 55fan

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 01:59 PM

Tootoo can fight.  He's a fighter and he enjoys it.  He's also decent as a 4th line guy, or at least not any worse than our other 4th line guys.

 

He doesn't have to fight every game to be effective as a fighter.  He only has to fight when he's called on.

 

Kind of like retaining a lawyer if you know you're going to need one a few times a year.



#33 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:43 PM

Tootoo is a waste of $1.9 Million and roster spot IMO...hope Holland can swing a trade to be done with him. I know some of you love the fighters and I'm not against the gloves being dropped.

I'd rather see the money and the spot used to upgrade to a better defenseman.


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#34 Jesusberg

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:54 PM

5 or 6 fights a season is hardly too much to ask for  I'm just tired of seeing someone pushing our skilled players around after whistles and not having a big guy like Ericsson step in there and challenge the guy doing it.  

 

Hell, if I was playing against the Wings, I'd shove Datsyuk and Zetterberg around all the time, knowing I don't have to back it up with my fists.  Ericsson isn't going to scare people like a Probert, but it's still a big guy you'd have to fight against, versus not having to fight anyone for your actions.    

 

But he's a guy who logs 20+ minutes a game. He's not an Engelland, Carkner or McQuaid. If he was their position, playing under 15 minutes a night, then sure... I'd expect him to add something else. In his current position, it makes way more sense to have Ericsson on the ice instead of in the penalty box.

 

Tootoo is a waste of $1.9 Million and roster spot IMO...hope Holland can swing a trade to be done with him. I know some of you love the fighters and I'm not against the gloves being dropped.

I'd rather see the money and the spot used to upgrade to a better defenseman.

While I agree that Tootoo is expendable, I'd actually prefer to see Samuelsson and Eaves go before him. Sammy has no distinct place on the team that can't be taken by a better or younger player, and at this point Eaves is a lesser skilled, injury prone version of Miller. While I don't think Tootoo has a ton of value, he brings something that neither one of those guys do. I still think it'll be near impossible to get rid of Samuelsson, but in an ideal world I'd move him before Tootoo.

And as far as upgrading defense, I actually don't think it's an issue at all. Every one on defense has a clear role (Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindl, Quincey), or is a young guy with potential (Smith, DeKeyser, Lashoff) looking to establish himself. While we certainly don't have the best defense on paper, I do think it's a very practical corps. They're a very good transition group - Sproul, Ouellet, Jensen, etc. will benefit from those younger guys getting experience now.


Edited by Jesusberg, 22 August 2013 - 02:55 PM.


#35 ogreslayer

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:58 PM

Tootoo can fight.  He's a fighter and he enjoys it.  He's also decent as a 4th line guy, or at least not any worse than our other 4th line guys.

 

He doesn't have to fight every game to be effective as a fighter.  He only has to fight when he's called on.

 

Kind of like retaining a lawyer if you know you're going to need one a few times a year.

 

How many of his fights last season were those of the "staged" variety (opening faceoff, only due to his past history w/ a player, etc) instead of a fight that was actually precipiated by in game action or about changing the momentum of the game?  Mostly what I can recall are the former which personally, I really don't see much value in.  The only significant one I can remember of the "keeping the flies off" variety, to use Babcock's saying, was him stepping in to a fight that was already developing between another player & Ericsson, who had just dropped his gloves, when Tootoo stepped in & started throwing down. 

 

It just might be a failing memory on my part, but I don't remember Tootoo providing much of any deterence/momentum changing fights at all of the ones he had last season.  Feel free to correct me if I'm off here.



#36 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:21 PM

 

How many of his fights last season were those of the "staged" variety (opening faceoff, only due to his past history w/ a player, etc) instead of a fight that was actually precipiated by in game action or about changing the momentum of the game?  Mostly what I can recall are the former which personally, I really don't see much value in.  The only significant one I can remember of the "keeping the flies off" variety, to use Babcock's saying, was him stepping in to a fight that was already developing between another player & Ericsson, who had just dropped his gloves, when Tootoo stepped in & started throwing down. 

 

It just might be a failing memory on my part, but I don't remember Tootoo providing much of any deterence/momentum changing fights at all of the ones he had last season.  Feel free to correct me if I'm off here.

 

He started fights at the opening faceoff to spark his team a little.  Not just because he had some vendetta against a particular player.  


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#37 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:28 PM

 

But he's a guy who logs 20+ minutes a game. He's not an Engelland, Carkner or McQuaid. If he was their position, playing under 15 minutes a night, then sure... I'd expect him to add something else. In his current position, it makes way more sense to have Ericsson on the ice instead of in the penalty box.

 

 

 

So why was it OK for Derian Hatcher or Scott Stevens to drop the gloves in their eras?  Was icetime for star defenseman somehow less important in those days?  I don't think that has changed over history.     

 

And like I stated, I'm not expecting him to fight as often as the guys you mentioned, so he won't be in the box that often.  He just needs to fight occasionally out of necessity, especially if Tootoo won't be back and Holland won't fill that role with anyone else.  

 

I'm not just picking on Ericsson.  I'm hoping guys like Smith and Abdelkader will be more willing to defend their teammates also.      


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#38 RedWingsDad

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:44 PM

 

How many of his fights last season were those of the "staged" variety (opening faceoff, only due to his past history w/ a player, etc) instead of a fight that was actually precipiated by in game action or about changing the momentum of the game?  Mostly what I can recall are the former which personally, I really don't see much value in.  The only significant one I can remember of the "keeping the flies off" variety, to use Babcock's saying, was him stepping in to a fight that was already developing between another player & Ericsson, who had just dropped his gloves, when Tootoo stepped in & started throwing down. 

 

It just might be a failing memory on my part, but I don't remember Tootoo providing much of any deterence/momentum changing fights at all of the ones he had last season.  Feel free to correct me if I'm off here.

 

 

 

He started fights at the opening faceoff to spark his team a little.  Not just because he had some vendetta against a particular player.  

 

It's not as if there was a vendetta opportunity and he didn't take it... as I’m sure he would have. Can't fault a guy for lack of opportunity.

 

Either way, I loved the "staged" fights too... and yes, they do swing momentum and get the bench fired up.


Edited by RedWingsDad, 22 August 2013 - 03:44 PM.

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#39 dobbles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:50 PM

 

There's still plenty of fighters and enforcers in the game.  Not as much as before, but most teams carry some form of toughness.  You make it sound every team logs 10 fighting majors per season nowadays.  

 

i think the thing to remember is that most enforcers rack up all their fights against each other. the role of the enforcer may still exist on many teams, but the value is almost nill.

 

the entire concept of an enforcer is to protect your star player from getting run. yet the wings have a guy in kronwall that can make those bone crushing, career ending hits. yet when he makes one, its not like the enforcer comes out and does anything about it. i can't even find kronwall listed on hockeyfights.com! so what kind of deterrent is an enforcer when guys can do whatever they want out there with no fear of retribution?

 

another example would be that weasel matt cooke. we all remember that great photo of evander kane punching his face in. it was a classic. we all got a kick out of it. but did getting his face beat in (by a non enforcer for that matter) change the way he plays? not at all. dude is still as douchey as ever and takes runs at players all the time. and look at cookes fight history. a player as dirty as him should be regularly getting time with enforcers if they were actually doing their job. but on his career fight list you see names like kovulchuk and pominville, not crombeen, orr, etc.

 

so just how exactly are enforcers deterrents when they never actually deter? and lets be honest here, is there really even much of a role in 'changing the momentum' when 2 guys that are basically unimportant to the outcome of the game square off right at the start?


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#40 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:01 PM

 

i think the thing to remember is that most enforcers rack up all their fights against each other. the role of the enforcer may still exist on many teams, but the value is almost nill.

 

the entire concept of an enforcer is to protect your star player from getting run. yet the wings have a guy in kronwall that can make those bone crushing, career ending hits. yet when he makes one, its not like the enforcer comes out and does anything about it. i can't even find kronwall listed on hockeyfights.com! so what kind of deterrent is an enforcer when guys can do whatever they want out there with no fear of retribution?

 

another example would be that weasel matt cooke. we all remember that great photo of evander kane punching his face in. it was a classic. we all got a kick out of it. but did getting his face beat in (by a non enforcer for that matter) change the way he plays? not at all. dude is still as douchey as ever and takes runs at players all the time. and look at cookes fight history. a player as dirty as him should be regularly getting time with enforcers if they were actually doing their job. but on his career fight list you see names like kovulchuk and pominville, not crombeen, orr, etc.

 

so just how exactly are enforcers deterrents when they never actually deter? and lets be honest here, is there really even much of a role in 'changing the momentum' when 2 guys that are basically unimportant to the outcome of the game square off right at the start?

 

Cooke has been attacked by enforcers before, most notably Shawn Thornton after the Savard incident.  I do think Cooke has changed his game since the Kane knockout. He doesn't play as dirty anymore.    

 

I know if I was a Cooke or Shaw, I'd be less likely to go after players like Kronwall and Zetterberg after whistles, if the Wings had a tough guy who could beat the hell out of me for it.  I don't know how much fear Tootoo instills in people, but I know he'd make me think twice, as opposed to being afraid of an Eaves or Emmerton, which I wouldn't be.     


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