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Keep Tootoo, Drop Cleary


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#41 RedWingsDad

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

 

i think the thing to remember is that most enforcers rack up all their fights against each other. the role of the enforcer may still exist on many teams, but the value is almost nill.

 

the entire concept of an enforcer is to protect your star player from getting run. yet the wings have a guy in kronwall that can make those bone crushing, career ending hits. yet when he makes one, its not like the enforcer comes out and does anything about it. i can't even find kronwall listed on hockeyfights.com! so what kind of deterrent is an enforcer when guys can do whatever they want out there with no fear of retribution?

 

another example would be that weasel matt cooke. we all remember that great photo of evander kane punching his face in. it was a classic. we all got a kick out of it. but did getting his face beat in (by a non enforcer for that matter) change the way he plays? not at all. dude is still as douchey as ever and takes runs at players all the time. and look at cookes fight history. a player as dirty as him should be regularly getting time with enforcers if they were actually doing their job. but on his career fight list you see names like kovulchuk and pominville, not crombeen, orr, etc.

 

so just how exactly are enforcers deterrents when they never actually deter? and lets be honest here, is there really even much of a role in 'changing the momentum' when 2 guys that are basically unimportant to the outcome of the game square off right at the start?

 

Regarding your reference to Kronwall...it is not an enforcers job to fight someone who made a legal open ice hit. The effects of Kane punching Cooke in the face are not quantifiable.

 

You perhaps don't understand the role of an enforcer/agitator... it may include fighting, but doesn't have to. There wasn't a single fight in the Chicago series if I re-call but I think the Chicago players who were gooning it up (Bickell, Shaw(?)) definitely played a part in swinging the momentum that resulted in Detroit losing the series. I would have liked to have had our own guy out there... a Shanahan, McCarty, Downey, Tootoo to to give some back. Fact is, Tootoo is the only guy on our team right now who will do that... the rest of em act like emotionless automatons most of the time.

 

Long story short, I think an agitator who is willing to drop the gloves (Tootoo) is highly beneficial to a team... at the very least it's extremely entertaining to watch.


Edited by RedWingsDad, 22 August 2013 - 04:10 PM.

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#42 ogreslayer

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:09 PM

 

Cooke has been attacked by enforcers before, most notably Shawn Thornton after the Savard incident.  I do think Cooke has changed his game since the Kane knockout. He doesn't play as dirty anymore.    

 

I know if I was a Cooke or Shaw, I'd be less likely to go after players like Kronwall and Zetterberg after whistles, if the Wings had a tough guy who could beat the hell out of me for it.  I don't know how much fear Tootoo instills in people, but I know he'd make me think twice, as opposed to being afraid of an Eaves or Emmerton, which I wouldn't be.     

 

Causation problem there: His play didn't change after or because of the Kane fight at all.  Nearly a year after the Kane fight (April 10, 2010) is when he got his big suspension for the final 10 games of the season & the first round of the playoffs because of his elbow to the head of Ryan McDonagh. (March 20, 2011)  Let's also take into account the knee hit on Ovie that he didn't get suspended for in February of that same season & then just a few days later he did get suspended for 4 games for a hit from behind on Fedor Tyutin.  The league going after him with escalating suspensions, losing out on salary because of it, & his coach sitting him down in the off season to tell him to cut it out is what changed his game, not because of potential retribution on the ice from an enforcer or otherwise.



#43 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:49 PM

Regarding the inevitable fighting discussion, I think there's a distinction to be made between preventing all out cheapshots a la Matt Cooke, and being a deterrent to guys running around and agitating all game without having to answer for it.  One example that comes to mind is when Bertuzzi fought Shane O'Brien twice in the same game against the Predators a couple seasons ago.
 
They were running the Wings all game.  After that, not so much.  Having a guy that plays 6 minutes a night to fight isn't as much of a deterrent anymore, but if you have someone playing fairly regularly who's also willing to drop the gloves, I think that absolutely can be a deterrent.  Many times I've seen an agitator throttle back a little bit after the prospect of getting punched in the face becomes a real threat. It shows you won't be pushed around, and no one likes getting punched in the face. 
 
Some thoughts from Wings players and coach after that Predators game, which I think explains the concept well.
 

Bertuzzi got the better of O’Brien in a pair of fights, which his teammates said gave them an emotional lift against a physical team that has had their number this season.[/size]
"That’s been going on for a while, those two guys," Detroit’s Danny Cleary said. "(Bertuzzi) plays through a lot of injury. To have a couple of fights tonight, with what he’s going through, says a lot about him.
"Sometimes a situation like that can really spark a team. We all know how hard Bert plays. We’re not a team that fights a lot. That’s an understatement. But certainly we had guys step up tonight."
 
"I just thought Bert had enough," Red Wings coach Mike Babcock said. "Fighting isn’t going to happen in the playoffs anyway, you just got to play hard. But I think more than the fighting, it’s just standing up for yourself, and getting involved in the game and winning loose puck battles. To me that’s what it’s all about."
Said Red Wings goaltender Jimmy Howard: "We’re not really known for guys dropping the gloves, but it definitely gave us a boost. You could just tell on the bench, guys were fired up."


http://www.mlive.com...s_with_sha.html

I think staged fights are mostly garbage. A side spectacle by enforcers who usually don't have much else to offer. But players sticking up for themselves and keeping from getting run, or the "keeping the flies off" as Babcock puts it, yes please.

That being said, I don't think Tootoo provides a ton of deterrent. He plays such a limited role on the team, I'm guessing because when he's most effective hitting and agitating is also when he's least effective defensively. And while he's a good fighter given his size, I don't think he puts the fear into many people, other than being afraid he'll suckerpunch you.

#44 DickieDunn

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

Bertuzzi was in against Anaheim. ducks started crap, Bert skated up, it stopped. I don't have an issue with Tootoo but I don't see him having that effect.

Edited by DickieDunn, 22 August 2013 - 06:04 PM.

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#45 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:09 PM

Bertuzzi was in against Anaheim. ducks started crap, Bert skated up, it stopped. I don't have an issue with Tootoo but I don't see him having that effect.

 

Duh.

 

Getting paralyzed is most certainly a deterrence.  


Edited by GMRwings1983, 22 August 2013 - 08:09 PM.

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#46 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:11 PM

Regarding the inevitable fighting discussion, I think there's a distinction to be made between preventing all out cheapshots a la Matt Cooke, and being a deterrent to guys running around and agitating all game without having to answer for it.  One example that comes to mind is when Bertuzzi fought Shane O'Brien twice in the same game against the Predators a couple seasons ago.
 
They were running the Wings all game.  After that, not so much.  Having a guy that plays 6 minutes a night to fight isn't as much of a deterrent anymore, but if you have someone playing fairly regularly who's also willing to drop the gloves, I think that absolutely can be a deterrent.  Many times I've seen an agitator throttle back a little bit after the prospect of getting punched in the face becomes a real threat. It shows you won't be pushed around, and no one likes getting punched in the face. 
 
Some thoughts from Wings players and coach after that Predators game, which I think explains the concept well.
 

http://www.mlive.com...s_with_sha.html

I think staged fights are mostly garbage. A side spectacle by enforcers who usually don't have much else to offer. But players sticking up for themselves and keeping from getting run, or the "keeping the flies off" as Babcock puts it, yes please.

That being said, I don't think Tootoo provides a ton of deterrent. He plays such a limited role on the team, I'm guessing because when he's most effective hitting and agitating is also when he's least effective defensively. And while he's a good fighter given his size, I don't think he puts the fear into many people, other than being afraid he'll suckerpunch you.

Your feelings towards tootoo have not changed since he was on nashville example what was bolded. Did he sucker anyone while playing with the wings so far? so you saying tootoo is pretty much worthless I feel you are not giving him a fair shake and really seeing what he brings and how he could help in games like the chicago series where the wings started to get bullied around because no one wanted to stand up. Tootoo played with a ton of heart every shift out there and if you and others didn't see that I'm not sure what else to say. He went non stop every shift hitting everything trying to score..trying to make plays. I compare him to Helm with his heart of the game. Like a lion. Of course he doesn't have helms skill really but I would take 100 players like that over players like miller,eaves or emmerton. There were a ton of times I didn't even know Miller or Emmerton was even on the ice. When Tootoo is out there everyone on the ice and in the stands knows he is there.


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#47 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:15 PM

Tootoo is definitely not as dirty as he used to be.  

 

There was that fight where he decked Dorsett, but he just beat him to the punch.  It wasn't a suckerpunch.  He does run guys hard, but I don't remember him throwing cheap hits last season.  


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#48 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:30 PM

Your feelings towards tootoo have not changed since he was on nashville example what was bolded. Did he sucker anyone while playing with the wings so far? so you saying tootoo is pretty much worthless I feel you are not giving him a fair shake and really seeing what he brings and how he could help in games like the chicago series where the wings started to get bullied around because no one wanted to stand up. Tootoo played with a ton of heart every shift out there and if you and others didn't see that I'm not sure what else to say. He went non stop every shift hitting everything trying to score..trying to make plays. I compare him to Helm with his heart of the game. Like a lion. Of course he doesn't have helms skill really but I would take 100 players like that over players like miller,eaves or emmerton. There were a ton of times I didn't even know Miller or Emmerton was even on the ice. When Tootoo is out there everyone on the ice and in the stands knows he is there.

He didn't sucker anyone while on the Wings. He did dive and had a couple questionable hits, but really it's only the diving that bothered me. My point was he can hold his own in fights, which is impressive for a little guy, but I don't think many guys who drop the gloves fear squaring up with him.

And to clarify, I don't think he's useless, but in the way he fit on the Wings, he essentially was. I think Tootoo has often been a defensive liability when he's out there hitting, and with Babcock that means a lot of sitting on the bench. I also think people overstate his offensive potential here. He gets the occasional garbage goal around the net, but otherwise his only move is breaking down the right side and ripping a shot from near the faceoff dot.

I wouldn't take 100 players like Tootoo over Miller and Eaves, both those guys are big penalty killers, which is something Tootoo doesn't provide. That frees up Dats and Zetterberg from being on the PK as much. But I've always thought Eaves and Miller are so similar it would be nice to have someone who brought a more physical game in one of their spots. And Emmerton at this point is really just a plug.

I didn't hate him here on the Wings, but it was a bad signing. Overpayment for what he brings. And it's pretty obvious he's not the kind of player Babcock was looking for. And it's not like Babs shies away from guys who play gritty.

#49 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:30 AM

Not really understanding the deal here since Cleary hasn't re-signed with the team and that likely isn't happening soon or at all.

 

Not sure how Tootoo plays in this mix as well since you likely have one Grand Rapids player that if he plays well is likely going to have a lot of playing time up here to start in Tomas Tatar.

 

With Cleary, it always amused me how much s**t he took on how people went off the deep end on him.  Always busted his tail off and nevermind that he was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the team this past season.



#50 Dabura

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:56 AM

 

With Cleary, it always amused me how much s**t he took on how people went off the deep end on him.  Always busted his tail off and nevermind that he was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the team this past season.

 

I can absolutely understand people's beef with Cleary. No one's saying he isn't a warrior and he doesn't bring it in the playoffs, it's just, my God, those knees! He falls down every shift. And pace has become an issue. And why, why, why do we - the mighty Red Wings - have a crippled Dan Cleary in their top six??

 

I love Postseason Cleary. I love that he produced the way he did this past run. I don't think it was "just luck," but I have real doubts about his ability to even finish a season at this point - even with his great peformance fresh in mind. It wouldn't be a wasted roster space, but...I think a guy like Tatar could give us more - especially since what we need more than anything else is goals. A guy like Tatar should be a shot in the arm.

 

The same is true of Tootoo, I feel. He's a spark plug. He can rally the troops, get them up, start a buzz, get the fans going, create something out of nothing. And, yes, he can fight. And, yes, he can hit like a freight train. If we lose him, we have all of no one who can really provide what he provides, and, depending on how things go in the Eastern Conference, that might be a big issue.

 

Overpaid? Yes. But I'd rather have him at a relatively steep price than not have him at all.

 

You want to have your bases covered.


Edited by Dabura, 24 August 2013 - 03:33 AM.

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#51 Jesusberg

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:22 PM

They were running the Wings all game.  After that, not so much.  Having a guy that plays 6 minutes a night to fight isn't as much of a deterrent anymore, but if you have someone playing fairly regularly who's also willing to drop the gloves, I think that absolutely can be a deterrent.  Many times I've seen an agitator throttle back a little bit after the prospect of getting punched in the face becomes a real threat. It shows you won't be pushed around, and no one likes getting punched in the face. 

 

See, this I can get behind. Considering there are twice as many forwards as defensemen, I would much prefer to have one of them "deter" other players. While I'm not sure they'd fit on the Red Wings, guys like Prust and Neil are good examples here. They can play in the top 9, contribute offensively and throw their weight around. I also feel like better players like Simmonds, Clarkson, Ott, Lucic, Clowe, etc are effective, but you lose out on the offense and PP presence they provide if they're in the box for 5 mins all the time. It's definitely nice to have a forward who is able to keep other teams in check. 



#52 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:33 PM

Since some people seem to be confused with the thread title, I officially re-dub it: 

 

Keep Tootoo, Please Kenny DO NOT Sign UFA Cleary As Some Media Outlets Have Reported That You Wish To Do Because He Is A Drain On The Team And The Cap And Tootoo Would Be Better For The Team On The Fourth Line Than Cleary Would Be On The Third.


"I think a tough team, a team that sticks together, is a lot better than leaving the onus on one guy to take care of business." - Brendan Shanahan

 

It still would be nice to have that one guy.


#53 wingfan1991

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:46 AM

we need tootoo and helm same line.. they will be unreal together. cleary pack you bags thanks for the memories though. 



#54 Dabura

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:27 AM

I think there might also be something to the Tootoo-'s-never-won-the-Cup thing. Maybe not quite a Dallas Drake hunger, nor a Daniel Alfredsson drive, and I know there are those who feel that if Tootoo ever wins the Cup, the world will implode...but, just sayin'.


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#55 Crymson

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:44 PM

I think there might also be something to the Tootoo-'s-never-won-the-Cup thing. Maybe not quite a Dallas Drake hunger, nor a Daniel Alfredsson drive, and I know there are those who feel that if Tootoo ever wins the Cup, the world will implode...but, just sayin'.

 

Dallas Drake played a significant role on hockey teams from age 23 until he finally won the Cup at 39. Tootoo is a 30-year-old role player. He's not nearing retirement age, and he's not one of the "let's win the Cup for ____" guys.

Bertuzzi has never won a Cup either, and he's much more of a locker room presence.



#56 GMRwings1983

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:46 PM

 

Dallas Drake played a significant role on hockey teams from age 23 until he finally won the Cup at 39. Tootoo is a 30-year-old role player. He's not nearing retirement age, and he's not one of the "let's win the Cup for ____" guys.

Bertuzzi has never won a Cup either, and he's much more of a locker room presence.

 

I can only imagine the hatred around the NHL if Bertuzzi is the first guy Zetterberg hands the Cup to.  


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#57 GoWings1905

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:52 PM

 
I can only imagine the hatred around the NHL if Bertuzzi is the first guy Zetterberg hands the Cup to.  


I think another newly acquired vet may have that potential honor locked up.
 
 
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#58 GMRwings1983

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:39 PM

I think another newly acquired vet may have that potential honor locked up.

 

Oh yeah.  Good point.   :cup:


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#59 55fan

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:31 PM

Win it for Alfred Tootootuzzi!



#60 Crymson

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

Win it for Alfred Tootootuzzi!

 

I prefer Bertootoosson.







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