MidMichSteve 1,115 Report post Posted September 4, 2013 Source? How about pics. 3 55fan, GMRwings1983 and Detroit \# 1 Fan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z Winged Dangler 2,082 Report post Posted September 4, 2013 The problem is that if Franzen isn't scoring goals, he doesn't bring anything else to the team. He needs to be more aggressive offensively and always look to shoot first. That doesn't always seem to be the case. We've seen him go on streaks where he's as good as anyone in the league at scoring goals. When he doesn't do it consistently, it appears it's because of him having a lazy work ethic. The converse argument is when people state that he produces at the pay level he's currently at. I guess that's true. But that doesn't mean it's OK for a guy to be lazier and underachieve a bit. "I am not a goal scorer,” he said. “I am a hockey player. I never look for goals. I look to play good and then people score or I do." I have a hard time believing he'll be more aggressive offensively if he's not really in a mood to "look for goals". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z Winged Dangler 2,082 Report post Posted September 4, 2013 these might not be exact fits, but all come very close to the goals or salary criteria. since your numbers are all arbitrary to begin with, i feel the list is valid. it shows that franzen is not some super great contract that absolves him from any criticism: matt moulson andrew ladd chris kunitz michael ryder erik cole If we had Andrew Ladd instead of Johan Franzen, we win the Cup next year. There's a very good reason that Ladd is the captain here in Winnipeg. His compete level is that of Darren Helm. 1 AtomicPunk reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,793 Report post Posted September 4, 2013 How about pics. Thank you. Cleary loves to shoot and has confidence. He just has no talent. Give him Franzen's skills and we have a great player. 1 Detroit \# 1 Fan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 Thank you. Cleary loves to shoot and has confidence. He just has no talent. Give him Franzen's skills and we have a great player. Except Franzen outshot Cleary 116 to 93 last season and had a higher S% of 12.1 as compared to Cleary's 9.7 And the difference is bigger during regular seasons that arnt 48 games long. The only player that typically out shoots Franzen is Zetterberg. Wouldn't say having a confident shot is the issue at all here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 Except Franzen outshot Cleary 116 to 93 last season and had a higher S% of 12.1 as compared to Cleary's 9.7 And the difference is bigger during regular seasons that arnt 48 games long. The only player that typically out shoots Franzen is Zetterberg. Wouldn't say having a confident shot is the issue at all here. I have more of a problem where Franzen typically plays on the ice. Cleary did a ton of dirty work in front of the net, which Franzen could do more of with his size. Franzen has ridiculous hands and probably the best wrist shot on the team, but yet he rarely seems to put himself near the slot where he could utilize that strength. The Wings got slightly better as the season progressed, but they still have a knack for generating too much of their offense from the perimeter. That's why I don't have as much of a gripe with Cleary and Abby. At least they were consistently willing to try and score dirty goals. 1 haroldsnepsts reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,793 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 Except Franzen outshot Cleary 116 to 93 last season and had a higher S% of 12.1 as compared to Cleary's 9.7 And the difference is bigger during regular seasons that arnt 48 games long. The only player that typically out shoots Franzen is Zetterberg. Wouldn't say having a confident shot is the issue at all here. Your stats actually somewhat prove my point. Franzen didn't play all 48 games, but he should have a much higher SPG ratio than Cleary. The gap wasn't that high as your stats show, especially when you consider Franzen logging more icetime and more PP minutes, where so many shots come from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 I have more of a problem where Franzen typically plays on the ice. Cleary did a ton of dirty work in front of the net, which Franzen could do more of with his size. Franzen has ridiculous hands and probably the best wrist shot on the team, but yet he rarely seems to put himself near the slot where he could utilize that strength. The Wings got slightly better as the season progressed, but they still have a knack for generating too much of their offense from the perimeter. That's why I don't have as much of a gripe with Cleary and Abby. At least they were consistently willing to try and score dirty goals. Can't argue there. Cleary was our poor mans homer replacement. Though I'm of the opinion that Abby has no place in the top 6. Franzen just isn't physically aggressive enough to play that role it seems Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 Your stats actually somewhat prove my point. Franzen didn't play all 48 games, but he should have a much higher SPG ratio than Cleary. The gap wasn't that high as your stats show, especially when you consider Franzen logging more icetime and more PP minutes, where so many shots come from. Ok look at 2011-12. Cleary averaged 1.44 TOI less than Franzen. Cleary had a S% of 6 and Franzen had 13.7. Again, the only one to outshoot the Mule was Z and they were both Clearly our most dominant shooters. Confidence in shot is not the issue here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 Can't argue there. Cleary was our poor mans homer replacement. Though I'm of the opinion that Abby has no place in the top 6. Franzen just isn't physically aggressive enough to play that role it seems Completely agree. I don't really believe Abby belongs in the top-six either. It was practically through default he came into that role last season and was pretty effective at the dirty work. I don't think that is the ideal place for him either -- not enough offensive upside and he's better at forechecking hard and hitting people on the third line with Helm. With the additions of Alfredsson and Weiss, plus potentially more minutes for Nyquist/Tatar, the Wings should be able to slide Abby into a more appropriate spot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,475 Report post Posted September 5, 2013 Ok look at 2011-12. Cleary averaged 1.44 TOI less than Franzen. Cleary had a S% of 6 and Franzen had 13.7. Again, the only one to outshoot the Mule was Z and they were both Clearly our most dominant shooters. Confidence in shot is not the issue here. No one is arguing that franzen has a better shot, I get what your saying but obviously Cleary isn't nearly as talented and won't have the same scoring percentage Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted September 10, 2013 Less pressure Mule has on him the better he plays? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amato 3,210 Report post Posted September 11, 2013 Fun stat: franzen is ranked 87 overall in nhl 14, 3 behind Z and ahead of any other forward on the wings not named datsyuk or Zetterberg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HIFI_canadian 18 Report post Posted September 12, 2013 Worse long-term deal I have ever seen (besides anyone Garth Snow signs). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted September 12, 2013 Worse long-term deal I have ever seen (besides anyone Garth Snow signs). ... so you haven't seen much I take it? 1 Opie reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bardownginos 16 Report post Posted September 13, 2013 The real problem is that people expect him to be a 40 goal scorer, when he simply is not (Well that and we expect him to be a goal per game player like he was in the 08 playoffs). It's quite the anomaly. Even Mickey Redmond refers to him as a 40 goal guy, but check his stats, at 33, he's never scored that much. Hell, he's only scored over 30 goals once. Moral of the story, perhaps people need to change their expectations of how much this guy scores. He's a high 20 goal scorer. Couple that with an average of 20 assists and it doesn't seem as bad as people make it out to be. I do think he will largely benefit from playing with workhorses like Weiss or Alfie though. Guys who aren't afraid to get a little dirty while he gets himself into prime scoring positions (and when you can shoot the puck like him, that's pretty much anywhere). 1 T.Low reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted September 13, 2013 The real problem is that people expect him to be a 40 goal scorer, when he simply is not (Well that and we expect him to be a goal per game player like he was in the 08 playoffs). It's quite the anomaly. Even Mickey Redmond refers to him as a 40 goal guy, but check his stats, at 33, he's never scored that much. Hell, he's only scored over 30 goals once. Moral of the story, perhaps people need to change their expectations of how much this guy scores. He's a high 20 goal scorer. Couple that with an average of 20 assists and it doesn't seem as bad as people make it out to be. I do think he will largely benefit from playing with workhorses like Weiss or Alfie though. Guys who aren't afraid to get a little dirty while he gets himself into prime scoring positions (and when you can shoot the puck like him, that's pretty much anywhere). I'm not so sure it's Franzen's production that people have a gripe about. At least for me personally, it's more the appearance that Franzen doesn't show up to play every game. He is a great value for the contract, but that doesn't make floating and lack of effort acceptable. Franzen's massive playoff years probably skewed some expectations, though in reality Franzen hasn't performed at all in the playoffs since then. So, when your fallback is "playoff performer" and then you don't do that anymore -- combined with the floating during the regular season, that's where fans start to get upset with Franzen. I agree that Weiss centering a line should help out Franzen this season. He needs somebody to do most of the work. 3 Rick D, haroldsnepsts and Nev reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 http://www.freep.com/article/20130919/SPORTS05/309190051/1053/sports05 And even there, Pierre LeBrun thinks the Mule is overrated, writing: “I don’t know what it is, but I always feel like Franzen leaves me wanting more. I just feel like he’s always had the talent to be a 40-goal scorer in this league. ... He scored 28 goals in 2010-11, 29 in 2011-12 and 14 in 41 games last season in the lockout-shortened year. Those numbers are good, but I feel like his talent should produce more.” Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,475 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 http://www.freep.com/article/20130919/SPORTS05/309190051/1053/sports05 I couldn't care less about what Pierre LeBrun thinks 1 amato reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ForzaVerde Report post Posted September 19, 2013 The problem is that if Franzen isn't scoring goals, he doesn't bring anything else to the team. He needs to be more aggressive offensively and always look to shoot first. That doesn't always seem to be the case. We've seen him go on streaks where he's as good as anyone in the league at scoring goals. When he doesn't do it consistently, it appears it's because of him having a lazy work ethic. The converse argument is when people state that he produces at the pay level he's currently at. I guess that's true. But that doesn't mean it's OK for a guy to be lazier and underachieve a bit. Well said. I think Franzen needs to take on more responsibility and ip his desire to be an all-star instead of backing down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 Would this thread become even more interesting if I mentioned Marian Hossa? Instead of paying Franzen his $4 million to be a 25-30 goal scorer, we could have paid Hossa a little more, but gotten a much better production in return. He sucked in the 2009 playoffs, but Holland is supposed to see the future better than us, and I think we can all agree he made the wrong decision. I don't blame Holland. Hossa didn't have the reputation as a playoff beast. And really, I don't think he has been. Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't consulted the stats, but until this year Hossa was really a streaky regular season player. Holland could've gone either way, but it looked like the sky was the limit for Franzen. Then came the Cup hangover that lasted til last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 Hossa was a known; you knew pretty much exactly what you were getting with his services (he's been that consistent), and what you were getting was (and remains) generally very valuable. Provided he wasn't injured. Franzen, on the other hand, was a big question mark. Were these monster playoff runs the real Johan Franzen, or would they prove to be anomalies, outliers? I think, given all that, Holland was wrong to choose Franzen. You choose the known, the proven, the consistent, not the (un)known, no matter how sexy the package may have proven itself to be in the short time you've known it. Ultimately, when all is said and done, Hossa will very likely be remembered as the superior playoff performer. Irony! But, alas, [/deadhorsebrokenrecord] Also, I don't really care what LeBrun has to say either, but I do happen to agree with him here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,518 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 Hossa was a known; you knew pretty much exactly what you were getting with his services (he's been that consistent), and what you were getting was (and remains) generally very valuable. Provided he wasn't injured. Franzen, on the other hand, was a big question mark. Were these monster playoff runs the real Johan Franzen, or would they prove to be anomalies, outliers? I think, given all that, Holland was wrong to choose Franzen. You choose the known, the proven, the consistent, not the (un)known, no matter how sexy the package may have proven itself to be in the short time you've known it. Ultimately, when all is said and done, Hossa will very likely be remembered as the superior playoff performer. Irony! But, alas, [/deadhorsebrokenrecord] Also, I don't really care what LeBrun has to say either, but I do happen to agree with him here. Right, which is why you're obviously in favor of seeing Cleary and Sammy over Tatar and Nyquist this season yeah? Gotta go with the known, the consistent, and not the unknown, short term success of the "sexy package". Franzen was a young(ish) goal scorer on the rise in 2009. Hossa was a known commodity who wanted more money. Holland gambled. It's easy to say he gambled incorrectly, but it's not like the deal has turned out bad for us. Franzen has been a good player. Just not better than Hossa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AtomicPunk 296 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 When Franzen was signed to this big multi-year deal...I think the Wings and the fans thought he would produce at a Hossa-like level. I think it's safe to say he hasn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,518 Report post Posted September 19, 2013 When Franzen was signed to this big multi-year deal...I think the Wings and the fans thought he would produce at a Hossa-like level. I think it's safe to say he hasn't. You're spot on, but it's not like he's been bad either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites