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Franzen: "I am not a goal scorer"


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#61 Crymson

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:02 AM

 

Name a player with Franzen's size and skill who takes so many nights off?  

 

 

I'll take that to mean that you cannot answer his question.



#62 Nev

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:00 AM

I would just like to point out Franzen is being paid $5M this season. It's his cap hit which is $4M, thanks to the couple of bogus years on the end of his contract which will come back and bite us on the ass if and when he retires early.


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#63 evilmrt

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:04 AM

Weird. This is a pure mental/attitude issue, and I have to wonder what his deal is and how how Babs has tried to approach it. He really could do so much more.

#64 frankgrimes

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:45 AM

Well nothing new here, Franzen never wanted to be the guy. He is comfortable to play alongside guys like Zetterberg and Hossa he wants to help out not be the guy.
If the DetroitRedWings expected him to change that, well tough luck he isn ot going to do it, why should he let him play in a comfortable role and he will good again but asking him to carry a line or to become one of the guys is just too much.

Edited by frankgrimes, 03 September 2013 - 02:29 AM.

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#65 Dabura

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:49 AM

Semantics?


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#66 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:55 AM

I would just like to point out Franzen is being paid $5M this season. It's his cap hit which is $4M, thanks to the couple of bogus years on the end of his contract which will come back and bite us on the ass if and when he retires early.


It's his cap hit that is important to me. I couldn't care less if he got paid 100 million dollars this year, I look at his cap hit. Ya maybe his last couple seasons he might not be worth that cap hit, but who knows. Right now he is worth it.

That's like complaining the car you bought will break in 5 years, maybe you're right, but for now you have no way of knowing and you might as well get the use you can out of it, as it is still worth what you paid for it

#67 amato

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:31 AM

 
The problem is that Mule often bails out from in front of the goalie before the shot arrives.   He's got the size and hands but I don't know if he has the fortitude to face an oncoming shot like Homer and Cleary did. 


True. Which is why I expect Abby to start on the top line.. Which I wouldn't mind but if mule could fix his fortitude problem, he'd best benefit the team from in front of the net with pav and z

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#68 Dabura

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:51 AM

"I am not a goal scorer." - Nixon


Also: Is it really true that Franzen only had one multiple-goal game last season?

 

Srsly?


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#69 Nightfall

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:05 AM

 

Because as I just wrote, people don't like to see a guy scoring a few goals, and then disappearing for the longest time.  It adds up to 25 goals, but looks like he's floating more often that not.  Fans want to see guys busting their ass on every shift.    

 

It's a shame that centers like Datsyuk and Zetterberg haven't had a chance to play with a true goal scoring winger for the longest time.  Obviously, it's even worse when guys like Abdelkader or Cleary are thrown on top lines, but those guys never had Franzen's talent or fan expectations.  

 

The hate from fans isn't hard to understand when you look at it as something differently than just salary.  It's those reasons above why Franzen is disliked.     

 

Once again, it all comes down to expectations, and Franzen falling short of those expectations.  There are hundreds of NHL players that never live up to their expectations.  Some are blessed with great goal scoring touch, physical presence, or hustle in the minors.  Yet, when they come up to the NHL, they fall short of expectations.  Only a select few are elite.  Hell, Dats and Zetterberg weren't even drafted in the first round.  Those late round selections that turn elite are even more rare.

 

I think instead of concentrating on what Franzen doesn't bring to the table (hustle, desire to be #1 player), people should just concentrate on what makes him a good NHL player (scoring touch, playmaker, size).  He is not getting paid big money to be something he is not.


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#70 Playmaker

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:09 AM

There probably isn't one, but you're also missing the point.
 
Franzen could be a lot better than 30 goals and 60 points.  With that kind of shot, that kind of frame and those kind of linemates, I'm going to channel Mickey Redmond when I say that Franzen should be on a scoring pace of 40 goals every season these last couple of years.  He should be hard to play against every game, which he never seems to be.    
 
You're basically admitting that he's an underachiever who's worth all he's paid.  So am I.  I'm just not happy about it, because he could be better (probably too late now that he's in his 30's).  The guy has talent, but doesn't play hard enough every game.  I can't excuse that just because he makes as much money as other 30 goal scorers around the league.  Those other guys around the league don't have his physical talents.  He's untapped potential.     
 
 
And that's why many posters here don't like him.  Nobody wants to see a guy scoring two goals one night, and then looking lost and disinterested the next 5 games.  Regardless of what he's paid and who else around the league makes what.


Zetterberg takes a ton of "days off". When you see how he played the last 10 games and when you see how he played in the middle of the season, why can 't he play like that day in and day out? He also makes 3 million more than Franzen and scores less. It's all perception.

#71 Opie

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:27 AM

Zetterberg takes a ton of "days off". When you see how he played the last 10 games and when you see how he played in the middle of the season, why can 't he play like that day in and day out? He also makes 3 million more than Franzen and scores less. It's all perception.

 

And here is where a lot of Franzen is like Player X comparisons fail, when Z is not scoring, or as you say taking "days off", he is still one of the best defensive forwards in the game.

 

Franzen when not scoring is one of the biggest wastes of space on the ice.

 

All you really need to see is him with the puck between the red line and the offensive blue line, if he flips it in the zone and barely skates after it, you are not getting much from him that game.

 

If he protects the puck and gains the zone, or dumps and chases it, you know he is in the game mentally.

 

However, when he is not "in it to win it" he is better served in the press box.

 

I also do not understand the posts about him having size and play maker ability.

 

When he loafs, he does not create plays, and he almost never uses his size, so how skills he doesn't really use make up for him taking shifts and games off is really confusing to me.

 

As I have said numerous times on this forum, you take Franzen and give him Tootoo, Abby, Cleary, or Helm's heart and desire and you have an all world talent.

 

As it is right now, you have a very talented player who often times has little effort and desire.

 

I can excuse a lack of talent, like Helm's hands of stone, he just doesn't have hands of a Franzen or Bertuzzi even, but I have a very hard time excusing lack of effort!


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#72 Dabura

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:37 AM

Zetterberg takes a ton of "days off". When you see how he played the last 10 games and when you see how he played in the middle of the season, why can 't he play like that day in and day out? He also makes 3 million more than Franzen and scores less. It's all perception.

 

Your comparison...doesn't hold.

 

True, Zetteberg isn't always playing at 300% like he was during that final do-or-die stretch in the regular season. But there's a difference between not playing 300% all the time and not playing 100% all the time.

 

The thing with Franzen is, when he disappears (and he does so on a more-than-infrequent basis), he disappears completely. When's he "gone," he adds nothing to the lineup. And he doesn't really seem to get that there's something wrong with that. He just wants to have fun, man.

 

Zetterberg? Sure, he has his dry spells. But that's point production. It doesn't reflect, for example, his two-way play, which is always exceptional.

 

There's a reason so many people have an issue with Franzen. There's a reason why Zetterberg is the captain.


Edited by Dabura, 03 September 2013 - 09:48 AM.

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#73 Dabura

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:47 AM

 

And here is where a lot of Franzen is like Player X comparisons fail, when Z is not scoring, or as you say taking "days off", he is still one of the best defensive forwards in the game.

 

Franzen when not scoring is one of the biggest wastes of space on the ice.

 

All you really need to see is him with the puck between the red line and the offensive blue line, if he flips it in the zone and barely skates after it, you are not getting much from him that game.

 

If he protects the puck and gains the zone, or dumps and chases it, you know he is in the game mentally.

 

However, when he is not "in it to win it" he is better served in the press box.

 

I also do not understand the posts about him having size and play maker ability.

 

When he loafs, he does not create plays, and he almost never uses his size, so how skills he doesn't really use make up for him taking shifts and games off is really confusing to me.

 

As I have said numerous times on this forum, you take Franzen and give him Tootoo, Abby, Cleary, or Helm's heart and desire and you have an all world talent.

 

As it is right now, you have a very talented player who often times has little effort and desire.

 

I can excuse a lack of talent, like Helm's hands of stone, he just doesn't have hands of a Franzen or Bertuzzi even, but I have a very hard time excusing lack of effort!

 

This.


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#74 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:10 AM

"I am not a goal scorer." - Nixon

Also: Is it really true that Franzen only had one multiple-goal game last season?
 
Srsly?


That's not really a bad thing. That means he scored in 13 games. Instead of scoring 14 goals in 8 games. He was productive over a longer stretch.

#75 Opie

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:30 AM

 

name a player for 6mil cap hit will get you 60+ points a year, net 25-30 goals, work his butt off every shift, have great defensive abilities, and get into all the hard areas and charge the net... go ahead and check next years ufas too if you want, even throw a ridiculous trade option, you won't find a perfect player for $6mil, that is a fact

 

I know your statement was aimed at another poster, but here you go:

 

Stats since 08-09 (Oshie's first year)

 

Player /age >>  GP >> Goals >> assists >> Pims >> PPG

Mule/33  >> 292 >> 115 >> 107>> 205 >> .76

TJ Oshie/26 >> 292 >> 70 >> 125 >> 146 >> .66

Derek Roy/30 >> 319 >> 88 >> 158 >> 162 >> .77

 

Cap Hit

Mule = $3.95, actual salary = 5 m, Team Cap % = 6.96

Oshie = $4.175, Actual 4 m, Team Cap % = 5.95

Roy = 4m, Actual 4m, Team Cap % = 6.22

 

I would take either Oshie or Roy's effort over Franzen's any day of the week.

 

Now I get that they all make less than 6mil which was one of your original requirements but here are just some names with 6m cap hits who I would take over Franzen:

 

(look at these names, why you picked 6 mil I am not sure)

 

Milan Lucic, Taylor Hall, Zetterberg, the Sedin twins, Patrick Sharp, Mike Richards, Toews, Kane, Tavares.

 

Then there are guys that depending on the day I may take over Mule:

 

J. Staal, Tyler Sequin, Zajac, St.Louis, Jeff Skinner.

 

Now can we stop saying that for the money there is no one as good as Mule, because even at a 4m cap hit he is not the discount people think.

 

The fact he is actually paid 5m puts him in the company of a lot better players, with a lot more desire.


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#76 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:49 AM

Is he talking about "Regular Season" Johan or "Playoff" Johan?

This "confession" would have been more timely if it came before he signed his last contract.


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#77 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:55 PM

Is he talking about "Regular Season" Johan or "Playoff" Johan?

This "confession" would have been more timely if it came before he signed his last contract.

 

Franzen has said a fair amount of stupid things in interviews, so I'm trying not to read too much into it even though it is irritating. 

 

My bigger concern is Playoff Johan hasn't been seen since 2010.  The last three playoffs he's been below a .43 Point Per Game pace.   Mule had three explosive playoff years, but those may have been an aberration, not anything close to what could turn out to be his normal production. It used to be people would excuse his taking shifts off by saying "wait til he goes beast mode in the playoffs!" Now it's turned into "for the cap hit he's still not bad."

 

I'm pretty sure the Wings were hoping they gave an 11 year extension to a guy who's a lot closer to a point per game playoff scoring than what Mule's been scoring the last few postseasons.

 

Yes, I know for the cap hit he's not terrible.  But given his streakiness and lack of compete level as a 33 year old I have to wonder how that $4 million a year will look in a couple seasons. 



#78 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:16 PM

 

I know your statement was aimed at another poster, but here you go:

 

Stats since 08-09 (Oshie's first year)

 

Player /age >>  GP >> Goals >> assists >> Pims >> PPG

Mule/33  >> 292 >> 115 >> 107>> 205 >> .76

TJ Oshie/26 >> 292 >> 70 >> 125 >> 146 >> .66

Derek Roy/30 >> 319 >> 88 >> 158 >> 162 >> .77

 

Cap Hit

Mule = $3.95, actual salary = 5 m, Team Cap % = 6.96

Oshie = $4.175, Actual 4 m, Team Cap % = 5.95

Roy = 4m, Actual 4m, Team Cap % = 6.22

 

I would take either Oshie or Roy's effort over Franzen's any day of the week.

 

Now I get that they all make less than 6mil which was one of your original requirements but here are just some names with 6m cap hits who I would take over Franzen:

 

(look at these names, why you picked 6 mil I am not sure)

 

Milan Lucic, Taylor Hall, Zetterberg, the Sedin twins, Patrick Sharp, Mike Richards, Toews, Kane, Tavares.

 

Then there are guys that depending on the day I may take over Mule:

 

J. Staal, Tyler Sequin, Zajac, St.Louis, Jeff Skinner.

 

Now can we stop saying that for the money there is no one as good as Mule, because even at a 4m cap hit he is not the discount people think.

 

The fact he is actually paid 5m puts him in the company of a lot better players, with a lot more desire.

 

Oshie has never even hit 20 goals, Roy has not hit that mark since 2010, Staal doesn't even put up the goals or points Johan does, and he comes with a bigger cap hit, Seguin may or may not become a beast, point wise. Zajac = just as streaky, hasn't scored 20 since 2010 either, Skinner is not proven yet, seams his point totals aren't too consistent year to year, not as good as mules either and he costs more at only 21, he will be either garbage or cost a fortune in a couple seasons, and st. louis is far too old to trade assests away for now. please provide some substantial proof that we can find a better bargain then franzen



#79 Opie

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:36 PM

 

Oshie has never even hit 20 goals, Roy has not hit that mark since 2010, Staal doesn't even put up the goals or points Johan does, and he comes with a bigger cap hit, Seguin may or may not become a beast, point wise. Zajac = just as streaky, hasn't scored 20 since 2010 either, Skinner is not proven yet, seams his point totals aren't too consistent year to year, not as good as mules either and he costs more at only 21, he will be either garbage or cost a fortune in a couple seasons, and st. louis is far too old to trade assests away for now. please provide some substantial proof that we can find a better bargain then franzen

 

You are picking certain stats (goals) and ignoring other ones (assists, Pims, ppg).

 

Franzen does nothing but score (once and a while).

 

Oshie, while scoring less does more and costs the same.

Same with Roy.

 

Did you forget I mentioned the Sedins, Lucic, Sharp, Kane, Toews, Richards? (All at 6 mil which was your original requirement which is why that list has more expensive players, you set this I did not)

 

I picked Oshie and Roy because they are similar cap hits and similar PPG.

 

You picked out a few, which I am willing to debate with you, but you picked your stats and players that fit your argument.

 

My point/contention has not been that mule is streaky (your words) but that his effort is hit or miss.

With Oshie and Roy you will get more effort and similar production.

 

But lets play by your rules:

 

Max Pacioretty's last two seasons were better than Mule and his salary and cap hit is 4m.

 

Plus when was the last time Franzen has 60+ points as you pointed out in the original post I quoted?

Hockeydb only has him hitting 59 once (one of only two times his point total exceeded his PIMS), I don't really like my sniper to have more PIMs than Points.


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"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#80 F.Michael

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

Weird. This is a pure mental/attitude issue, and I have to wonder what his deal is and how how Babs has tried to approach it. He really could do so much more.

Holland needs to find a hypnotist who can convince Franzen that he's Wendel Clark.



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