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Franzen: "I am not a goal scorer"


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#101 number9

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:34 PM

 

It's a lame angle.

 

- Franzen has issues. They bother a lot of people. This is no secret. Babcock has stopped just short of calling Franzen out in the media.

 

- The big rub for people is, as harold said, that a 38-year-old Franzen is a scary thought. (Bad scary, not good scary.) The implied argument, or thought, being - y'know, it might really be worth trading the guy before he gets to 38. People find this offensive, etc. etc.

 

- I get the point you're trying to make re: Clarkson and Clowe, but, again, it's lame. Maybe people knew they'd get paid like they did. What does that prove? That the people taking issue with Franzen are wrong in everything they say about the issue? People wanted Clarkson on this team because we don't really have a Clarson. Same for Clowe.

 

- My head hurts, which is why this post sucks. But hopefully you catch my drift. Which is that Franzen is a terrible human being. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

 

Saying someones angle is lame is a lame angle.

The point is: Franzen at $4 > Clarkson at $5.25, regardless of whether u perceive Franzen to float now and then or not.

Again, none of you have any idea how Franzen will play at 38. Some players drop off as early as 32 and some can play top lines till they're 40. Of course he'll slow with age, but none of us know which Franzen will be, so it's kind of pointless to speculate.

 

So because teams overpaid for those guys, that means we should forgive Franzen's laziness?  Clowe and Clarkson don't have Franzen's shooting skills.  They're just big, bruising forwards.  I don't remember saying that those guys could score 30 or 40 goals here.    

 

None of this will quiet Franzen's detractors.  Like I said, a guy that doesn't look like he's busting his ass on every shift is an easy target for fans to get angry at.    

It doesn't forgive anything. No player is perfect. Do I wish Franzen were less streaky? Yes. Do I wish Zetterberg would shoot more? Yes. Did I wish Cleary would fall down less? Yes. Do I wish Sammy wouldn't shoot it directly at the logo? Yes. Do I wish Ericsson would throw bigger hits? Yes.

Fact is, lazy or not. They overpaid. We didn't. Franzen is the better deal among those players.



#102 kipwinger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:35 PM

 

It's a lame angle.

 

- Franzen has issues. They bother a lot of people. This is no secret. Babcock has stopped just short of calling Franzen out in the media.

 

- The big rub for people is, as harold said, that a 38-year-old Franzen is a scary thought. (Bad scary, not good scary.) The implied argument, or thought, being - y'know, it might really be worth trading the guy before he gets to 38. People find this offensive, etc. etc.

 

- I get the point you're trying to make re: Clarkson and Clowe, but, again, it's lame. Maybe people knew they'd get paid like they did. What does that prove? That the people taking issue with Franzen are wrong in everything they say about the issue? People wanted Clarkson on this team because we don't really have a Clarson. Same for Clowe.

 

- My head hurts, which is why this post sucks. But hopefully you catch my drift. Which is that Franzen is a terrible human being. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

 

 

What it proves it that many of the people who criticize Franzen for being inconsistent, one-dimensional, etc. etc. etc. actually wanted players who are MORE inconsistent, one-dimensional, etc. etc. etc.  As such, it's hard to believe that their criticism of Franzen is based on these issues (as you say) and not some irrational dislike for a guy who has, nonetheless, shown that he's a very effective player signed to a very team friendly cap hit. 

 

Now on to other silly criticisms I've read on this thread.  Of course Franzen won't play up to his contract when he's 40.  Neither will Zetterberg.  Or Kovalchuk (had he sayed).  Or anybody else signed to a backdiving contract.  The reason that GMs were willing to sign them were twofold.  First, because they wanted to keep good players.  Two, because they hoped that the early benefits of such contracts would outweigh the negative aspects later on.  Furthermore if one looks at backdiving contracts relatively, it's not hard to argue that 40 year old Franzen's 3.9 million dollar cap hit will be MORE bearable than 40 year old Zetterberg's 6.08 million dollar hit.  Of course time will tell, but thus far in their careers Franzen's production has stayed relatively consistent from year to year (hovering right around he career average) while Zetterberg's has fluctuated greatly.  Mathematically Frazen's standard deviation is much lower, suggesting that from year to year his point production is actually MORE consistent (e.g. predictable) with his average than Zetterberg's. Therefore, 40  year old Franzen is (statistically) more likely to play closer to the level at which he earned his lifetime contract than is 40 year old Zetterberg.  This would obviously make his overpayment MORE bearable. 


Edited by kipwinger, 03 September 2013 - 09:49 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#103 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:44 PM

Would this thread become even more interesting if I mentioned Marian Hossa?

 

Instead of paying Franzen his $4 million to be a 25-30 goal scorer, we could have paid Hossa a little more, but gotten a much better production in return.    

 

 

He sucked in the 2009 playoffs, but Holland is supposed to see the future better than us, and I think we can all agree he made the wrong decision.    


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#104 kipwinger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:48 PM

 

So because teams overpaid for those guys, that means we should forgive Franzen's laziness?  Clowe and Clarkson don't have Franzen's shooting skills.  They're just big, bruising forwards.  I don't remember saying that those guys could score 30 or 40 goals here.    

 

None of this will quiet Franzen's detractors.  Like I said, a guy that doesn't look like he's busting his ass on every shift is an easy target for fans to get angry at.    

 

 

Correct.  And angry fans tend to form hasty conclusions without much evidence.  They also tend to scapegoat certain players (Franzen) for reasons which they willingly overlook in others (Clarkson, Clowe). 

 

You're right, as long as he doesn't play like he did in 2008 Franzen will continue to be a lightening rod.  And I'm fine with that.  Hell, I even suggesting trading him (as part of a package for Evander Kane) in another thread.  I only really object to the obvious hypocrisy and poor reasoning involved, which both dooms Franzen (as a result of fan frustration) and exalts guys like Clarkson and Clowe (and Bickell, now that I've read back through old threads).  I'd just like to see a little consistency.  If you don't like lazy players, fine.  Then don't like ALL of them.  If you don't like inconsistent players, fine.  Don't like ALL of them.  But if you dislike some, and REALLY want others (for more money) then your opinions have very little credibility. 

 

Again, if the shoe fits...


Edited by kipwinger, 03 September 2013 - 10:03 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#105 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:49 PM

This needs to be quoted again.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but I can't believe people try to justify Franzen's bad attitude/laziness.

It really makes think that these people don't actually watch the games and just check the score sheet in the morning.

 

I watch every wings game, I see when 93 "floats" and all that jazz. Unfortunately so does about %90 of the nhl, i can pull video from the nhl vault of lots of star players floating around quite a few games this year. Great example, the video of Ovie.



#106 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:55 PM

 

 

Correct.  And angry fans tend to form hasty conclusions without much evidence.  They also tend to scapegoat certain players (Franzen) for reasons which they willingly overlook in others (Clarkson, Clowe). 

 

You're right, as long as he doesn't play like he did in 2008 Franzen will continue to be a lightening rod.  And I'm fine with that.  Hell, I even suggesting trading him (as part of a package for Evander Kane) in another thread.  I only really object to the obvious hypocrisy and poor reasoning involved; which both dooms Franzen (as a result of fan frustration) and exalts guys like Clarkson and Clowe (and Bickell, now that I've read back through old threads).  I'd just like to see a little consistency.  If you don't like lazy players, fine.  Then don't like ALL of them.  If you don't like inconsistent players, fine.  Don't like ALL of them.  But if you dislike some, and REALLY want other (for more money) then your opinions have very little credibility. 

 

Again, if the shoe fits...

 

 

 

Correct.  And angry fans tend to form hasty conclusions without much evidence.  They also tend to scapegoat certain players (Franzen) for reasons which they willingly overlook in others (Clarkson, Clowe). 

 

You're right, as long as he doesn't play like he did in 2008 Franzen will continue to be a lightening rod.  And I'm fine with that.  Hell, I even suggesting trading him (as part of a package for Evander Kane) in another thread.  I only really object to the obvious hypocrisy and poor reasoning involved; which both dooms Franzen (as a result of fan frustration) and exalts guys like Clarkson and Clowe (and Bickell, now that I've read back through old threads).  I'd just like to see a little consistency.  If you don't like lazy players, fine.  Then don't like ALL of them.  If you don't like inconsistent players, fine.  Don't like ALL of them.  But if you dislike some, and REALLY want other (for more money) then your opinions have very little credibility. 

 

Again, if the shoe fits...

 

also the thing that always gets me is the response "well he plays up to his cap hit now but..." but nothing, he is currently producing sufficiently for his cap hit. end of story, we can revisit said argument when he stops producing up to his cap hit i.e. when he is 38



#107 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:58 PM

 

 

Correct.  And angry fans tend to form hasty conclusions without much evidence.  They also tend to scapegoat certain players (Franzen) for reasons which they willingly overlook in others (Clarkson, Clowe). 

 

You're right, as long as he doesn't play like he did in 2008 Franzen will continue to be a lightening rod.  And I'm fine with that.  Hell, I even suggesting trading him (as part of a package for Evander Kane) in another thread.  I only really object to the obvious hypocrisy and poor reasoning involved; which both dooms Franzen (as a result of fan frustration) and exalts guys like Clarkson and Clowe (and Bickell, now that I've read back through old threads).  I'd just like to see a little consistency.  If you don't like lazy players, fine.  Then don't like ALL of them.  If you don't like inconsistent players, fine.  Don't like ALL of them.  But if you dislike some, and REALLY want other (for more money) then your opinions have very little credibility. 

 

Again, if the shoe fits...

 

I don't watch Clarkson or Clowe on a consistent enough basis to call them lazy.  Clarkson is a good player from what I've seen.  Likely not worth that money. Clowe has gotten worse as a player statistically.  Not sure why.  Don't watch enough Sharks games to tell you.  I know both guys are big, physical and can punish teams on the forecheck.  They can also stand up for their teammates.  We don't have a player on the roster like those guys.  That's why I've lauded that part of their game before.  I never said Clowe would win the Richard Trophy as a Red Wing.  I never saw them as having Franzen's skill set from the games I've watched them play in.

 

As for our roster, I can't think of anyone who's as big an underachiever as Franzen.  Quincey isn't worth the money he's paid, but he's not an underachiver.  In his case, Holland just overpaid for him.       


 

 

also the thing that always gets me is the response "well he plays up to his cap hit now but..." but nothing, he is currently producing sufficiently for his cap hit. end of story, we can revisit said argument when he stops producing up to his cap hit i.e. when he is 38

 

That's why I brought up Hossa.  A bigger cap hit, but a better overall player.  I'd take that sacrifice.    


Edited by GMRwings1983, 03 September 2013 - 10:04 PM.

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#108 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:00 PM

 

I don't watch Clarkson or Clowe on a consistent enough basis to call them lazy.  Clarkson is a good player from what I've seen.  Likely not worth that money.  Clowe has gotten worse as a player statistically.  Not sure why.  Don't watch enough Sharks games to tell you.  I know both guys are big, physical and can punish teams on the forecheck.  They can also stand up for their teammates.  We don't have a player on the roster like those guys.  That's why I've lauded that part of their game before.  I never said Clowe would win the Richard Trophy as  a Red Wing.  I never saw them as having Franzen's skill set from the games I've watched them play in.

 

As for our roster, I can't think of anyone who's as big an underachiever as Franzen.     

 

filppula (now gone) was a bigger underachiever. Hudler, also gone. kronwall, smith (only one season, but it wasn't great, he should get much better though, he has a ton of potential)



#109 dobbles

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:00 PM

Challenge for those complaining about Franzen. Find 5 players who have hit UFA status who have scored more goals for the last 3 years with a smaller average cap hit sincw signing their UFA deal than Franzen. As frustrating as he can be he provides good value for his cap number.

 

these might not be exact fits, but all come very close to the goals or salary criteria. since your numbers are all arbitrary to begin with, i feel the list is valid. it shows that franzen is not some super great contract that absolves him from any criticism:

 

matt moulson

andrew ladd

chris kunitz

michael ryder

erik cole


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#110 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:04 PM

 

filppula (now gone) was a bigger underachiever. Hudler, also gone. kronwall, smith (only one season, but it wasn't great, he should get much better though, he has a ton of potential)

 

Filppula put up the numbers his cap hit deserved.  Kind of like your Franzen argument.  Same with Hudler.  What's different in their cases from his, if you're taking this route?  

 

Kronwall is actually getting paid less than he should.  He could get way more money elsewhere, but chooses to stay in Detroit.  


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#111 kipwinger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:10 PM

 

these might not be exact fits, but all come very close to the goals or salary criteria. since your numbers are all arbitrary to begin with, i feel the list is valid. it shows that franzen is not some super great contract that absolves him from any criticism:

 

matt moulson

andrew ladd

chris kunitz

michael ryder

erik cole

 

I agree with the comparison to these guys, and want to point out that that ALL of these guys are extremely valuable players with some holes in their game.  Mentioning Franzen in this group is probably the most accurate comparison I've seen made of him.  I think this actually illustrates the point perfectly.  You mention Franzen with these guys and people think "those are some really decent players".  Start mentioning him with upper levels guys and you think, "why isn't Franzen like those guys".  Franzen isn't like Marian Hossa for the same reason the guys you listed aren't like Marian Hossa.  But that doesn't mean Franzen sucks, or is lazy, or should be traded.  It means he's a good, but not great player, who's signed accordingly. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#112 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:12 PM

 

these might not be exact fits, but all come very close to the goals or salary criteria. since your numbers are all arbitrary to begin with, i feel the list is valid. it shows that franzen is not some super great contract that absolves him from any criticism:

 

matt moulson

andrew ladd

chris kunitz

michael ryder

erik cole

 

Moulson is currently a steal, but he will be upcoming on ufa status, and will net at least 5 mil. his cap hit is low because he was an rfa

same with Ladd

I don't know much about kunitz, but based on his numbers, he is a fair value

Ryders goals and points bounce around year to year, and his numbers aren't very consistent anymoore, seems like he has a good year for every 2-3 sub-par ones

Cole has been inconsistent point-wise over the last few years. also seems to be injured a lot.

 

bottom line Franzen puts up 25-30 goals every year, for a $4mil cap hit, which is a great cap hit for what you get. Just because there are others getting similar deals doesn't make his deal somehow worse. Are you saying a $4mil cap hit is too much for a 25+ goal scorer? cause if you are, then something is wrong?

 

.



#113 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:17 PM

 

Filppula put up the numbers his cap hit deserved.  Kind of like your Franzen argument.  Same with Hudler.  What's different in their cases from his, if you're taking this route?  

 

Kronwall is actually getting paid less than he should.  He could get way more money elsewhere, but chooses to stay in Detroit.  

 

Filppula never quite lived up to his potential, much like the franzen argument, which was exactly why I used it as an argument, same with Huds. ou can't say no one underachieves as much as franzen, then try to erase the evidence you're wrong... Kronwall could get more, but he underachieves defensively, everyone knows that. Filppula DID play up to his cap hit, till he demanded more, Huds screwed us over, and left to go over seas, also ended up Demanding more money then we were willing to pay. Point is Franzen plays well enough to earn his paychecks, and that is all that matters, sure I would love to have him score more, but he is earning his keep. It is like hiring an accountant to handle 50 accounts, but getting angry when he only handles 50 accounts...



#114 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

 

these might not be exact fits, but all come very close to the goals or salary criteria. since your numbers are all arbitrary to begin with, i feel the list is valid. it shows that franzen is not some super great contract that absolves him from any criticism:

 

matt moulson

andrew ladd

chris kunitz

michael ryder

erik cole

 

I would actually take Franzen over all those players.  None of those guys should be top line wingers, imo.

 

But I don't think any of them have Franzen's skill set, or are as lazy as him.    


Edited by GMRwings1983, 03 September 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#115 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

 

 

What it proves it that many of the people who criticize Franzen for being inconsistent, one-dimensional, etc. etc. etc. actually wanted players who are MORE inconsistent, one-dimensional, etc. etc. etc.  As such, it's hard to believe that their criticism of Franzen is based on these issues (as you say) and not some irrational dislike for a guy who has, nonetheless, shown that he's a very effective player signed to a very team friendly cap hit. 

 

Now on to other silly criticisms I've read on this thread.  Of course Franzen won't play up to his contract when he's 40.  Neither will Zetterberg.  Or Kovalchuk (had he sayed).  Or anybody else signed to a backdiving contract.  The reason that GMs were willing to sign them were twofold.  First, because they wanted to keep good players.  Two, because they hoped that the early benefits of such contracts would outweigh the negative aspects later on.  Furthermore if one looks at backdiving contracts relatively, it's not hard to argue that 40 year old Franzen's 3.9 million dollar cap hit will be MORE bearable than 40 year old Zetterberg's 6.08 million dollar hit.  Of course time will tell, but thus far in their careers Franzen's production has stayed relatively consistent from year to year (hovering right around he career average) while Zetterberg's has fluctuated greatly.  Mathematically Frazen's standard deviation is much lower, suggesting that from year to year his point production is actually MORE consistent (e.g. predictable) with his average than Zetterberg's. Therefore, 40  year old Franzen is (statistically) more likely to play closer to the level at which he earned his lifetime contract than is 40 year old Zetterberg.  This would obviously make his overpayment MORE bearable. 

 

This is in no way true. 

 

Even assuming Franzen's standard deviation was much lower and his point production during the regular season is more consistent (I'd have to see the math to see if that's actually true), that has little predictive value in what kind of points he will put up as a 40 year old.   

 

Not to mention, I'm assuming we're talking about regular season because it can't possibly be true of Franzen's playoff performance.



#116 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:24 PM

 

Filppula never quite lived up to his potential, much like the franzen argument, which was exactly why I used it as an argument, same with Huds. ou can't say no one underachieves as much as franzen, then try to erase the evidence you're wrong... Kronwall could get more, but he underachieves defensively, everyone knows that. Filppula DID play up to his cap hit, till he demanded more, Huds screwed us over, and left to go over seas, also ended up Demanding more money then we were willing to pay. Point is Franzen plays well enough to earn his paychecks, and that is all that matters, sure I would love to have him score more, but he is earning his keep. It is like hiring an accountant to handle 50 accounts, but getting angry when he only handles 50 accounts...

 

I don't think those guys were bigger underachievers.  After the those long playoff runs, fans expected more from Franzen than either of those players.  A lot more.  Plus, those guys did as well as they could for their size and playing style.  I can't say that about Franzen.    

 

Kronwall played well defensively in the playoffs.  It's his offensive game that was poor in the postseason.  In any case, he's a steal at his cap hit.  We're lucky there.  Much bigger steal than Franzen.     


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#117 Euro_Twins

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:32 PM

 

This is in no way true. 

 

Even assuming Franzen's standard deviation was much lower and his point production during the regular season is more consistent (I'd have to see the math to see if that's actually true), that has little predictive value in what kind of points he will put up as a 40 year old.   

 

Not to mention, I'm assuming we're talking about regular season because it can't possibly be true of Franzen's playoff performance.

 

 

Subtracting Johan's first two seasons, his average (per 80 games) would be 57 points or .7125 ppg, that is right on par with what he gets in 80 games

 

I will subtract Z's first two seasons as well, to be fair (although they were pretty stellar for just jumping into the nhl) and his average is 1.019 ppg which averages out to 81.5 points per 80 games. that is basically a ppg pace, so I would say both players averages, are pretty darn close to what they produce year by year


 

I don't think those guys were bigger underachievers.  After the those long playoff runs, fans expected more from Franzen than either of those players.  A lot more.  Plus, those guys did as well as they could for their size and playing style.  I can't say that about Franzen.    

 

Kronwall played well defensively in the playoffs.  It's his offensive game that was poor in the postseason.  In any case, he's a steal at his cap hit.  We're lucky there.  Much bigger steal than Franzen.     

 

I was talking more Kronwall's career not just this year, he could be much better defensively, either way he definitely is a steal. Furthermore, what fans expect, and what the people who sign Franzens cheque expect are totally different. 



#118 AtomicPunk

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:33 PM

That's fine if Franzen doesn't want to be "the man" and score a lot of goals. Then replace him on the scoring lines with someone who DOES want to score a lot of goals and let him be a third line mucker who doesn't REALLY skate well, isn't REALLY intensely physical, and doesn't REALLY want to score. He has tons of potential to score, tons of talent in that area and a good shot, but for some reason he doesn't want to do it. I'm puzzled.


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#119 GoWings1905

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:35 PM

 
Saying someones angle is lame is a lame angle.

The point is: Franzen at $4 > Clarkson at $5.25, regardless of whether u perceive Franzen to float now and then or not.

Again, none of you have any idea how Franzen will play at 38. Some players drop off as early as 32 and some can play top lines till they're 40. Of course he'll slow with age, but none of us know which Franzen will be, so it's kind of pointless to speculate.
It doesn't forgive anything. No player is perfect. Do I wish Franzen were less streaky? Yes. Do I wish Zetterberg would shoot more? Yes. Did I wish Cleary would fall down less? Yes. Do I wish Sammy wouldn't shoot it directly at the logo? Yes. Do I wish Ericsson would throw bigger hits? Yes.

Fact is, lazy or not. They overpaid. We didn't. Franzen is the better deal among those players.


Sure, those guys got overpaid. In the context when Franzen actually signed his deal, the Red Wings opted for him over a better (slightly more expensive) Marian Hossa.

I didn't really care about signing Clarkson or Clowe, but in terms of value comparing players -- I want Hossa over Franzen every time.
 
 
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#120 GMRwings1983

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:36 PM

 

 

Subtracting Johan's first two seasons, his average (per 80 games) would be 57 points or .7125 ppg, that is right on par with what he gets in 80 games

 

I will subtract Z's first two seasons as well, to be fair (although they were pretty stellar for just jumping into the nhl) and his average is 1.019 ppg which averages out to 81.5 points per 80 games. that is basically a ppg pace, so I would say both players averages, are pretty darn close to what they produce year by year


 

I was talking more Kronwall's career not just this year, he could be much better defensively, either way he definitely is a steal. Furthermore, what fans expect, and what the people who sign Franzens cheque expect are totally different. 

 

You don't think Holland has thought about moving Franzen before, or looking for a replacement?  I would guess he has, just hasn't found the right opportunities/prices.  


That's fine if Franzen doesn't want to be "the man" and score a lot of goals. Then replace him on the scoring lines with someone who DOES want to score a lot of goals and let him be a third line mucker who doesn't REALLY skate well, isn't REALLY intensely physical, and doesn't REALLY want to score. He has tons of potential to score, tons of talent in that area and a good shot, but for some reason he doesn't want to do it. I'm puzzled.

 

I agree.

 

Dan Cleary would definitely say, "I'm a goal scorer".  He has that confidence that Franzen severely lacks.  


According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.





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