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How much do the Wings need another defenseman?


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#21 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:40 AM

Sproul and Ouellet are in the system and not far off.

you do realize that LGW will overflow with Sproul sucks and Ouellet is garbage long before any of the two will make any sort of impact, right? Developing defensemen take time and hardly any make the jump without looking lost early on. This is why suggesting a trade of smith is insane. He will realize that potential, just give him time.
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#22 GMRwings1983

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 11:29 AM

you do realize that LGW will overflow with Sproul sucks and Ouellet is garbage long before any of the two will make any sort of impact, right? Developing defensemen take time and hardly any make the jump without looking lost early on. This is why suggesting a trade of smith is insane. He will realize that potential, just give him time.

 

If we're talking about the future, then yes, we should wait for Sproul and Ouellet.

 

If we're talking about making a Cup run now, with Datsyuk and Zetterberg's prime winding down, then that's a different story.  By the time Sproul and Ouellet become good, our two big guns will be retired or no longer good.  We should be more concerned about developing star forwards, if the future is what we're looking at.  

 

Like I said, we definitely need a top defenseman, but I don't see how we can acquire one now.


Edited by GMRwings1983, 02 September 2013 - 11:31 AM.

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#23 StayClassy

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 11:45 AM

That's pretty much why I am willing to part with someone like Smith, we need to make a cup run NOW. That and it appears we have a dancing plethora of D prospects waiting to come up.

 

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#24 GMRwings1983

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:03 PM

That's pretty much why I am willing to part with someone like Smith, we need to make a cup run NOW. That and it appears we have a dancing plethora of D prospects waiting to come up.

 

GMRwings is that Maynard?

 

No.  Travis Bickle.  

 

I don't think trading Smith will be enough to get a top quality defenseman.  We could throw in a pick, but not sure that would do either.  


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#25 dobbles

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:27 PM

you do realize that LGW will overflow with Sproul sucks and Ouellet is garbage long before any of the two will make any sort of impact, right? Developing defensemen take time and hardly any make the jump without looking lost early on. This is why suggesting a trade of smith is insane. He will realize that potential, just give him time.

 

99% of the people would trade smith because he is a valuable asset. and unlike on xbox, in real life you actually have to give up something to get something. so its not a matter of disliking him or giving up on his development, its just the reality of the nhl. 

 

there are very few people out there that think smith should be traded because he stinks. unfortunately, one of them decided to make a thread saying so that stayed at the top of the list for weeks. made it look as if there were tons and tons of people losing faith in him. most posts in the thread were whining about overreacting, and the others were just advocating that smith be sat for a couple games and not traded. 


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#26 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:57 PM

99% of the people would trade smith because he is a valuable asset. and unlike on xbox, in real life you actually have to give up something to get something. so its not a matter of disliking him or giving up on his development, its just the reality of the nhl. 
 
there are very few people out there that think smith should be traded because he stinks. unfortunately, one of them decided to make a thread saying so that stayed at the top of the list for weeks. made it look as if there were tons and tons of people losing faith in him. most posts in the thread were whining about overreacting, and the others were just advocating that smith be sat for a couple games and not traded.

Well my post was in response to the poster mentioning Sproul and Ouellet as potential top pair defensemen straight from juniors. But anyway, your point about giving up something good to get something good is fair, unfortunately I dont see any top defenseman that would be worth it, being available.
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#27 Nev

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:36 PM

I have been saying this for a good while now, but to me it's true:

 

The Wings biggest need is a bonafide numer 1 guy, who can make other players better. I am not talking about perfect human like - we will never see a player like him again :( - but if Kronwall (who I really really love when hes on his game), just doesn't cut it. Guys like Yandle wouldn't be a big improvement Holland needs to get creative and trade for someone yes, that means giving up some of the assets but that's the whole point you develop assets and try to use them for proven players.

 

Who might be available? Maybe a guy like Dion Phaneuf, Shattenkrik, Dennis Seidenberg (Bruins want to get younger) or a guy like Luke Schenn the guy is big, a stay at home guy and he throws big hits.

 

Granted all these players aren't ideal options but they would improve the defense significantly. It is hard to underestand, why so many people are already willing to trade Smith, the guy had one shortened season to play and did ok it's not Smith's fault, that people had unreal expectations for him.

 

There was an interesting thread recently on HFboards asking people to list their top-20 current defencemen.  What I found interesting was it gave the perspectives of fans around the league on Kronwall not long after we had a thread on here asking where Kronwall ranked amongst current defenceman.  Every poster on that list had Kronwall between 10 and 20.  Which tells me several things.

 

Firstly, Kronwall is a bona fide #1 defenceman.  If there's only 10-15 guys ahead of you in a 30 team league, you're a #1.  Secondly he is not a franchise defenceman which is what too many posters round here mean when they talk about a #1, but there's only a handful of those guys - Weber, Chara.  He's not even elite, but in that group just below.  But that doesn't make him a bad player.

 

Our current D-corps sure throws into perspective the Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart era and all the hate that Rafalski and Stuart got for "sucking". 


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#28 Richdg

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:58 PM

Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.

Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.

After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.

In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.

TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.



#29 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:53 PM

Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.
Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.
After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.
In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.
TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.


After re signing the players we need to next year we should have about 8mil to sign some big name player, assuming Quincey, Bert, and Sammy don't get 're signed or alfie.

#30 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 06:27 PM

My boy Smith isn't going anywhere!



#31 DickieDunn

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 06:51 PM

Kronwall is a #1 d-man. Please stop saying #1 d-man when you mean elite d-man. They are two different things. You either draft those guys (and Sproul might get there) or throw a ton of cash and/or prospects to get them for the last half if their careers. The only other way to get one is hope a team loses patience with a kid and they trade him like Hartford did with Pronger.
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#32 frankgrimes

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:36 AM

Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.
Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.
After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.
In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.
TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.

After re signing the players we need to next year we should have about 8mil to sign some big name player, assuming Quincey, Bert, and Sammy don't get 're signed or alfie.

Let's hope they throw big money at a big UFA the last time, the DetroitRedWings got a top UFAA was Hossa and only because he made it happening. The D needs help it's as simple as simple as that.

I would also give Sproul a bit of time and see how he does, before putting him into expectations he might never fullfill.

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Edited by frankgrimes, 03 September 2013 - 02:40 AM.

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#33 Dabura

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:23 AM

What is all this pitter-patter about giving the kids time? Are wanting a top defenseman now (because I want to win now and I think that, with the addition of a solid top-4 piece, we might actually have a shot) and "giving the kids a fair chance" somehow necessarily mutually exclusive?

 

Like GMR said - now is the thing. Now is the time is now.

 

Which isn't to say I don't want, or don't think, we can't dominate in the nearish future, with Sproul, XO, et al. on the horizon, and with Nyquist and Anderson and DeKeyser and Tatar and others starting to make some noise. It's just...we're talking a few years down the road away. Like, at least half a decade. And winning now (which, again, is the thing), doesn't necessarily mean selling the farm (especially since, y'know, our GM is supposedly a god among men).

 

Maybe we lose a future blue-line piece, but it's not like we're talking about throwing our future away. I mean, how would that work? Sather wold ask for all of our future talent in exchange for Dan Girardi?


Edited by Dabura, 03 September 2013 - 04:28 AM.

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#34 Dabura

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:38 AM

I realize "Give the kids a chance!" refers not just to the kids in the pipeline but also the ones that've already made their way to the big club. But my point still stands.

 

We need a top-4 defenseman. We have a ton of young talent in the pipeline, and some key young pieces on the team already. Maybe we have to part with a juicy prospect to get that top-4 defenseman. Maybe - *gasp* - we have to cut ties with two young guns to get that top-4 defenseman. But that's how trading works. You give some to get some. And I think, given our situation, giving some (potentially potentially-great-young-talent) to get a much-needed (in the here and now, i.e. while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still with us) high-end defenseman makes a lot of sense.

 

(For the record, I think a guy like DeKeyser is pretty much untouchable.)


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#35 DickieDunn

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

I realize "Give the kids a chance!" refers not just to the kids in the pipeline but also the ones that've already made their way to the big club. But my point still stands.

 

We need a top-4 defenseman. We have a ton of young talent in the pipeline, and some key young pieces on the team already. Maybe we have to part with a juicy prospect to get that top-4 defenseman. Maybe - *gasp* - we have to cut ties with two young guns to get that top-4 defenseman. But that's how trading works. You give some to get some. And I think, given our situation, giving some (potentially potentially-great-young-talent) to get a much-needed (in the here and now, i.e. while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still with us) high-end defenseman makes a lot of sense.

 

(For the record, I think a guy like DeKeyser is pretty much untouchable.)

 

How do you know that 2 of Dekeyser, Kindl, or Smith won't be the caliber of player you're saying they need to trade for?  What defenseman who is even rumored to be available would be a clear upgrade and is worth the rumored asking price?


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#36 amato

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:42 AM

Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and 2. very hard to trade for because no one gives them away.

Yes Weber would be a great fit on our blue line. Big, fast, tough, RH shot, etc.... but he isn't available nor do we have the cap room.

After this season E and Q are both UFA's and free up about 7 million in cap space. Do we resign E? it will cost us 4.5-5 million per year to do it. if so, we don't have any room for another big name Dman. Our roster is full (2 players over) and we are cap tight.

In my humble opinion we really don't need a top tier Dman. Well maybe for a year or 2. but our system is full of great young Dman. 2 years from now we will have: kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, lashoff, Sproul, maybe E, Kronwall, and several other good young prospects coming. There is a good possibility that 2 years from now, Kindl and Dekeyser are the top pair with E/Kronwall the second. Leaving Smith/Sproul as the 3rd pair. That is a good group.

TBH I would hate to move one of these guys right now. Let them develop and enjoy the ride.

 

while he might not necesarily be available right now, I do remember weber wanting a NTC/NMC or whatever (back when the prednecks matched the offer sheet) and they didn't give him one (here's his contract: http://capgeek.com/player/1042) implying that he could potentially be available in the near future.. it'd be interesting to see what happened if he got put on the trade block.


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#37 ogreslayer

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:57 PM

 

while he might not necesarily be available right now, I do remember weber wanting a NTC/NMC or whatever (back when the prednecks matched the offer sheet) and they didn't give him one (here's his contract: http://capgeek.com/player/1042) implying that he could potentially be available in the near future.. it'd be interesting to see what happened if he got put on the trade block.

 

And now that they're not in the same division/conference, maybe the Wings would have a shot at him if the Preds did put him on the market.  If it does happen, it's going to take a combination of NHL level talent, can't miss prospects, and at least a #1 pick to land him imo.  And while the Wings don't have cap room right now for that type of move, come next off season with expectations of a rising cap & some contracts coming off the board, they might be able to pull it off.  Even taking this year's $64.3m cap into next season, the Wings have $18.5m in cap space with 2 forward, 2 d-men, & 1 backup goalie spot to fill.  Granted, I think trading for Weber would mean probably losing Nyquist & probably Smith though from the big club's roster. 

 

Edit:  Just to throw it out there, who here would approve if this happened next June?

 

To Detroit: Weber

To Nashville: Nyquist, Smith, Sproul or Ouellet, & the Wings 2014 #1 pick


Edited by ogreslayer, 03 September 2013 - 01:03 PM.


#38 DickieDunn

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:14 PM

Why wold the Preds trade him?  Unless he demands a trade, I just can't see it happening anytime soon.  But let's put aside that for now.  Weber has a cap hit of $7.86 mil.  Assuming the most likely final roster for the Wings is Eaves being waived and Emmerton sent to GR after clearing waivers, they will be $820k under the cap.  That means they would have to move just over $7 mil in cap space.  That probably means Quincey and Samuelsson plus one other roster player is moved, either to Nashville or in separate deals.  If Nashville won't take them, then it becomes incredibly complex unless Weber says he will only play for the Wings, because another team would presumably not have to make a second trade first.  Let's say the perfect situation happens, and they're willing to take Samuelsson and Quincey as part of the deal.  It would also probably take Smith, Sproul or Oullet, Nyquist or Tatar, and either a couple high picks or another top prospect.  I don't think he'd be worth that much.  Let's assume that the deal is Quincey, Samuelsson, Smith, Nyquist, Sproul, and a 2nd.  That shorts Detroit a d-man and 2 forwards with no cap space to get someone else.

 

Even if the trade logistics can be worked out, with the recapture penalty this could be a killer, especially considering they have Zetterberg and Franzen both as potential hits from the recapture rules.  If They trade for Weber this year around the trade deadline, and he plays 10 years here and retires at the age of 38, they would have a hit of over $4 mil for 3 seasons.  Even if he plays out the contract, they would have an over the hill former hard hitting d-man who based on similar players wouldn't be nearly as effective as he is now and who will probably miss a chunk of the season every year from the abuse he takes taking up almost $8 mil of cap space.  

 

No thanks.


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#39 ogreslayer

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:54 PM

Why wold the Preds trade him?  Unless he demands a trade, I just can't see it happening anytime soon.  But let's put aside that for now.  Weber has a cap hit of $7.86 mil.  Assuming the most likely final roster for the Wings is Eaves being waived and Emmerton sent to GR after clearing waivers, they will be $820k under the cap.  That means they would have to move just over $7 mil in cap space.  That probably means Quincey and Samuelsson plus one other roster player is moved, either to Nashville or in separate deals.  If Nashville won't take them, then it becomes incredibly complex unless Weber says he will only play for the Wings, because another team would presumably not have to make a second trade first.  Let's say the perfect situation happens, and they're willing to take Samuelsson and Quincey as part of the deal.  It would also probably take Smith, Sproul or Oullet, Nyquist or Tatar, and either a couple high picks or another top prospect.  I don't think he'd be worth that much.  Let's assume that the deal is Quincey, Samuelsson, Smith, Nyquist, Sproul, and a 2nd.  That shorts Detroit a d-man and 2 forwards with no cap space to get someone else.

 

Even if the trade logistics can be worked out, with the recapture penalty this could be a killer, especially considering they have Zetterberg and Franzen both as potential hits from the recapture rules.  If They trade for Weber this year around the trade deadline, and he plays 10 years here and retires at the age of 38, they would have a hit of over $4 mil for 3 seasons.  Even if he plays out the contract, they would have an over the hill former hard hitting d-man who based on similar players wouldn't be nearly as effective as he is now and who will probably miss a chunk of the season every year from the abuse he takes taking up almost $8 mil of cap space.  

 

No thanks.

 

One very important reason the Preds might trade him is based on how his contract is actually structured.  While his cap hit is $7.8m, he will be owed $14m per year through the 2015-16 season & then it drops to $12m a year the two after that.  The Preds obviously didn't have to pay him the full $14m last season because of the lockout so they had that working in their favor in matching the Flyers' offer.  It's going to be a much more difficult contract for them to work around beginning this season given that Weber accounts for roughly a quarter of their entire payroll, which is already on an internal cap.

 

Also, don't forget that the Preds & Flyers were actually taking trade before Holmgren floated out the offer sheet last off season.  The Preds just didn't think they were getting enough value back in the trade & Holmgrem got tired of waiting around so he tried to structure an offer he though the Preds wouldn't be able to match.  The Preds have plenty of motivation to still explore trading Weber now that they can but it will all come down to a balance of getting out from under that contract & getting enough value back to where they don't deplete their roster too much, struggle in the standings, & more importantly struggle to sell tickets.  It will all come down to whether or not their management thinks that Weber at $14m a year still earns them more profit than a boat load of younger & cheaper players if the package they get back allows them to still compete & sell tickets.

 

Edit: Adding a note on why I think a Weber trade will happen before or at the draft next year instead of happening this season.  The way his contract is structured, only $1m of the $14m he was owed this season was salary.  The other $13m was a signing bonus that's paid on July 1 of each year.  The Preds had to pay that this year because of the one year freeze on trading him after matching the Flyers' offer, which just expired back on July 24th.  I think they'll want get a full season out of Weber for their $14m & trade him off before July 1, 2014 to avoid that next $13m payout.


Edited by ogreslayer, 03 September 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#40 amato

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 06:19 AM

 
And now that they're not in the same division/conference, maybe the Wings would have a shot at him if the Preds did put him on the market.  If it does happen, it's going to take a combination of NHL level talent, can't miss prospects, and at least a #1 pick to land him imo.  And while the Wings don't have cap room right now for that type of move, come next off season with expectations of a rising cap & some contracts coming off the board, they might be able to pull it off.  Even taking this year's $64.3m cap into next season, the Wings have $18.5m in cap space with 2 forward, 2 d-men, & 1 backup goalie spot to fill.  Granted, I think trading for Weber would mean probably losing Nyquist & probably Smith though from the big club's roster. 
 
Edit:  Just to throw it out there, who here would approve if this happened next June?
 
To Detroit: Weber
To Nashville: Nyquist, Smith, Sproul or Ouellet, & the Wings 2014 #1 pick

My thoughts exactly. And as far as the trade goes, it's probably not far off from what they'd want (and deserve) for him. Though id be upset to lose nyq, and I think it should include 2 f & 1 d instead of the opposite, I think I'd go for it. It would be worth it/make an immediate impact and the wings prospect pool is so deep that they'll lose several prospects within the next few years or so, one way or another anyway.

Edited by amato, 04 September 2013 - 06:19 AM.

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