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How much do the Wings need another defenseman?


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#41 DickieDunn

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 07:22 AM

If they thought they couldn't afford his salary they would have worked out a trade with Philly or taken the draft picks for him. They won't trade him and Detroit doesn't have the cap room for him anyway.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#42 Dabura

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 07:35 AM

 

How do you know that 2 of Dekeyser, Kindl, or Smith won't be the caliber of player you're saying they need to trade for?  What defenseman who is even rumored to be available would be a clear upgrade and is worth the rumored asking price?

 

Firstly, any and every player is "available" at all times - for the right deal. This idea that "There's no one available right now, so there's nothing we can do now anyway. So, *sits on hands*" is silly. Plus, isn't Ken Holland a god? Isn't he the greatest GM in the history of forever? Isn't his brilliance beyond the comprehension and constraints of mortal understanding? I trust he can be at least a little creative, and creep at least a couple of steps outside of the box.

 

Secondly, c'mon. We could play the "Well how do you know..." game forever and ever and ever.

 

How do you know x is really going to better than y or z?

 

How do you know Coffey and Primeau together aren't worth more than whatever Brendan Shanahan would give us?

 

Etc.

 

If we want to make as strong a push for the Cup as we can make, covering all our bases and preparing for worst-case scenarios, we'll be needing an established top-4 defenseman. Not a Kindl or a DeKeyser, who, no matter how good they may be, are relatively young and inexperienced, or some combination of those maybe (both being inexperienced, DeKeyser being very young. I guess.) (Point being, Kindl's actually not terribly young. But I digress.) Also, I forgot Smith.

 

Thirdly, you know what'd be cool? If we could bring in a top-4 defenseman while still retaining Kindl and DeKeyser and Smith. (Or at least two of them.) But I realize this is absolutely, unequivocally impossible.

 

Thirdly and a half - I'm not suggesting we give up on our youth. I'm saying we bring in a high-end piece. Bringing in a high-end piece would not cost all of Kindl, DeKeyser, Smith, Sproul, XO, etc.

 

Fourthly, the (il)legitimacy of what I'm saying shouldn't rest on whether or not I can provide a list of names that everyone here can agree on. Besides, why try naming players when people can just pull the "Well, ok, but how do you know..." card? No fun.

 

Fifthly, Dan Girardi.

 

Sixthly, imagine losing Kronwall for the entire postseason. Or, not even the whole postseason - just, say, six games. I do not like our odds in this case, and I know more than a few people would be thinking, "Y'know, maybe we shoulda gotten one of those experienced top-4 defensemen. Now that I think about it, what was the issue with that? It seems pretty silly that now that we wouldn't prepare for this, knowing our 'luck' with injuries."


Edited by Dabura, 04 September 2013 - 09:42 AM.

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#43 ogreslayer

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:01 AM

If they thought they couldn't afford his salary they would have worked out a trade with Philly or taken the draft picks for him. They won't trade him and Detroit doesn't have the cap room for him anyway.

 

Or if they didn't think at the time they were getting enough back from the Flyers or that their fans wouldn't put up losing their top d pairing for all of an extra 1st round draft pick the next four seasons, which are never sure things & could signal that they were in a rebuilding mode and see ticket sales drop, they could have decided to pay him in the short term with the idea of still exploring the trade market later when they might be able to get more value for him.  

 

And while the Wings don't have cap room this season, they very well might next season.  As I already mentioned, even if the cap doesn't go up, they have a little over $18.5m in cap space available.  Given that a trade for Weber would probably include a couple of roster players, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that the Wings could fit Weber on the payroll.  Let's say Nyquist & Smith go to Nashville in the trade & Tootoo is traded this season.  Now you've got $20.6m to work with after deferring Alfie's bonus this season to 2014.  Weber's cap hit reduces that to $12.8m for re-signing Ericsson, maybe Alfie, Tatar, DeKeyser, a backup to Jimmy, & fill out the rest of the spots (2-4 forwards & a d-man or 2) with cheap UFA pickups or youngsters from GR.  It's not impossible, especially since it's very doubtful that Nashville will do anything until the trade deadline at the earliest given that they've already paid Weber $13m for this season back on July 1.  Improbable?  Maybe, but not impossible.



#44 blgillett

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 09:29 AM

[quote name="Richdg" post="2434721" timestamp="1378151904"]

Yes we could use a true #1 Dman, what team doesn't? most do. but those type of players are 1. very expensive cap wise, and
I agree 100% we need a true #1 D-man
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#45 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 09:34 AM

If I were GM of the Preds I wouldnt care about Nyquist or Ouellet. I would ask for one of Smith/Dekeyser, Mrazek, Sproul and a 1st. If Kenny turned me down I would trade Weber elsewhere because I know a return like that can be had from someone else...
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#46 amato

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:43 AM

If I were GM of the Preds I wouldnt care about Nyquist or Ouellet. I would ask for one of Smith/Dekeyser, Mrazek, Sproul and a 1st. If Kenny turned me down I would trade Weber elsewhere because I know a return like that can be had from someone else...

 

 

pekka is only 30 and is one of the best (if not the best) goalies in the league.. i dont see them wanting mraz when they could get a top forward prospect instead


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#47 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:11 PM

pekka is only 30 and is one of the best (if not the best) goalies in the league.. i dont see them wanting mraz when they could get a top forward prospect instead


I think they would want the best possible prospects available, but minimum one defenseman ofcourse since they would be giving up their no 1 defenseman in trade. My reasoning is that trading Weber is a huge risk for the GM, if the prospects dont pan out, he will look stupid down the road for trading that franchise defenseman. He could play Rinne for 5 more years and have Mrazek as backup before he is ready to take over, or he could trade either of them before if necessary. Goalies that dominate for 15 years is pretty rare these days, so a plan B cannot hurt. Another fact is that the Red Wings do not really have any Grade A forward prospect, except maybe Mantha. I think it would be more about who puts together the most attractive package...
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#48 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:13 PM

I'm ready to let the next gen take over. The Wings' defense has a lot of potential, and they've been groomed for this year for a while. Lets see what they can do behind the wheel.

 Exactly this.  Everyone wants to see the kids play and now that they get to we need to bring in someone else?  I'm all for our current line up taking the ice this year and then in a year or 2 we'll have Sproul, Ouellet, Backman and others pushing these guys to keep their game up or they'll lose their spot to the aforementioned.  If after this season, Sproul replaces Quincey I'd be 100% pleased.  The future of the Wings is the prospects that are being groomed as Echolalia stated and the guys that won the Calder Cup last year behind a Wings team that was "rebuilding" and was supposed to miss the playoffs.  Since the beginning of last season, we lost Brunner, Flip and Cleary so far, and we acquired DeKeyser, Weiss and Alfredsson.  I'm sure having a hard time not staying positive and it's gonna sink in even more when I download NHL14 early release friday at lunch and start playing with the Wings and see Alfie and Weiss in Wings uniforms.  That's usually when it hits home.  We got some very good replacements for Brunner and Flip that I believe are upgrades easily.

 

As for the original question about our D, having the following is not so bad:  Kronwall-Ericsson, Kindl-DeKeyser, Smith-Quincey, Lashoff as 7th.  Ericsson has become a very trustworthy shutdown guy, DeKeyser doesn't like letting guys get past our blue line, Kindl hits the net from the point better than anyone else on our team, Smith had flashes of brilliance but needs to settle down and Quincey stopped sucking 2/3 of the way through last season and proved some of his worth.  I'm happy with our current blue line.


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#49 Dabura

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:47 PM

 Exactly this.  Everyone wants to see the kids play and now that they get to we need to bring in someone else?

 

I'm not following this bringing-in-a-great-defenseman-would-ruin-it-for-all-our-young-guys business.


I mean, if we can bring in Samuelsson, retain Bertuzzi, look to bring Cleary back...would bringing in a high-end defenseman - our blue line being our big weakness ("Kronwall...et al.") - be such a crazy thing to do?


Don't Toews me, bro!


#50 DickieDunn

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 02:11 PM

At what cost though? Most players would be traded for the right package but if a team isn't looking to make the deal then it takes a lot to get a GM to even consider moving a top player. Why would a team not in an obvious rebuild trade a star anyway? Yandle is supposed to be available but he isn't the guy they need. Edler was but apparently isn't any more. Myers is probably on the block but unless he pulls his head out his ass that contract is toxic. I can't think of anyone else who is likely to be moved for anything approaching a good deal for Detroit.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#51 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:54 PM

 

I'm not following this bringing-in-a-great-defenseman-would-ruin-it-for-all-our-young-guys business.


I mean, if we can bring in Samuelsson, retain Bertuzzi, look to bring Cleary back...would bringing in a high-end defenseman - our blue line being our big weakness ("Kronwall...et al.") - be such a crazy thing to do?

I don't think it would ruin it, I just don't believe it's the glaring need that some people think it is.  I'd love a Girardi or a Pietrangelo, but we needed scoring more than another Dman, which I believe Holland did a good job obtaining.  If a Dman like the guys above can be snatched up, the go for it, but it's not like last offseason where we didn't get really anyone of value in the summer.  We are a better team going into this year than last year and last years team took the Hawks to game 7 OT.


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#52 mjtm77

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 09:02 PM

I don't think it would ruin it, I just don't believe it's the glaring need that some people think it is.  I'd love a Girardi or a Pietrangelo, but we needed scoring more than another Dman, which I believe Holland did a good job obtaining.  If a Dman like the guys above can be snatched up, the go for it, but it's not like last offseason where we didn't get really anyone of value in the summer.  We are a better team going into this year than last year and last years team took the Hawks to game 7 

 

 

over achieved IMO...


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#53 Crymson

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 10:56 AM

This article ranked Girardi as 2013's least-valuable (significant) player in the league. It's certainly true that he had a rotten season.



#54 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 12:13 PM

Its nice to have the young kids coming up but it does absolutely nothing for your team this year. If our objective is to wait for the defensive talent to come up and win the cup eventually then the Alfredsson signing was a waste of time. Yes the Wings need to clear some dead weight through a trade and bring in another defenseman to win the cup this year. Holland hasn't been equal to the challenge and I don't think we are contenders unless he does.


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#55 Dabura

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 12:47 PM

This article ranked Girardi as 2013's least-valuable (significant) player in the league. It's certainly true that he had a rotten season.

 

I think we've established he had a bad season. A few things, though:

 

- The Rangers, as a team, sucked. Really, really sucked. (Was it Tortorella? Was it some kind of locker room karma job? I dunno.)

 

- Players have off-years.

 

(- ....And sometimes those off-years make them more, shall we say, tradable.)

 

- I believe he would be great as a Wing. We need a Dan Girardi, IMHO.


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#56 DickieDunn

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 06:12 PM

Its nice to have the young kids coming up but it does absolutely nothing for your team this year. If our objective is to wait for the defensive talent to come up and win the cup eventually then the Alfredsson signing was a waste of time. Yes the Wings need to clear some dead weight through a trade and bring in another defenseman to win the cup this year. Holland hasn't been equal to the challenge and I don't think we are contenders unless he does.


It's not waiting for kids to come up it's giving the guys on the roster an opportunity to show what they can do.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#57 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:57 PM

It's not waiting for kids to come up it's giving the guys on the roster an opportunity to show what they can do.

Pretty sure we saw the same defense last year. I'll try to act surprised.


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#58 barabbas16

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 10:40 PM

Pretty sure we saw the same defense last year. I'll try to act surprised.

 

What is it that you're going to act surprised about?  That they'll be top five in the league in goals against this year? ... again?  .... since that's what they did last year? ... WITH three rookies seeing significant time, Kindl in his first season of full-duty, and a down year from Quincey.  There's no reason not to expect marked improvement from the group as a whole this season.  And, also no reason to add another defenseman at this point.... possibly midseason or at the trade deadline depending on how things go, but definitely not now imo.



#59 Dabura

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:33 AM

we needed scoring more than another Dman, which I believe Holland did a good job obtaining.

 

But that's the thing. We have our scoring now. (Realistically, that long desired "power-forward" is going to be Jurco, Mantha, or someone else from the inside. Same with that pure goal-scorer (Pulkkinen et al.)) Instead of just sitting on that, we should be looking to improve elsewhere - and our blue line, as well as it did last year, and as well as it might do this year, would only benefit from a solid addition. Doesn't necessarily have to be a Girardi.

 

The obvious counterargument is that there's no real need to go out and get such a player. I really have to disagree there. It's pretty obvious we want the Cup this season. Kronwall's saying the hunger's back. Alfredsson's probably on his last season. Howard's finally "elite." Etc. If not now, when? (IMHO.)

 

It's about giving yourself the best possible odds of success. I just don't feel comfortable riding this current corps. It's not that I don't think there's talent and potential there. I just think it's years away (Smith), whereas I think we have a shot in the here and now. And, of course, there's Z and D. Put softly, they're not getting any younger. I'd like to see us win one more with them, or make at least one more big push.

 

But I suppose this is all kinda pointless/moot. It's pretty clear that no one's making deals at this point in time. So we wait until the trade deadline...or until we lose four defensemen to injury on the same night...etc.

 

I think we're mostly on the same page, you and I. So, like, whatevz.


Edited by Dabura, 08 September 2013 - 09:36 AM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#60 DickieDunn

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:58 AM


It's not waiting for kids to come up it's giving the guys on the roster an opportunity to show what they can do.


Pretty sure we saw the same defense last year. I'll try to act surprised.


So you're saying that young players don't improve from one year to the next?

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!






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