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TheDetroitRedWings

Wings to Keep Tootoo?

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Moving sammy down doesn't solve cap problem he is over 35 and his salary still counts against the cap

If both Eaves & Helm are out on LTIR, as stated in my edit, yes it does solve the cap problem. The Wings are currently a little under $2.4m over the cap & you can take Helm's $2.125m & Eaves' $1.2m cap hits off the books if they both start the season on LTIR. Last time I checked 2.125+1.2>2.4. That would actually put the Wings $937k below the cap limit & buys Kenny some time to solve the cap issue until either Helm or Eaves comes back. That also means if he moves Sammy to GR, they get additional cap relief of $100k so they would then be $1.03m below the cap. And as I said before, I still don't have much confidence that it plays out that way & think there's a pretty good chance that Nyquist proves to be the odd man out because he is still waiver exempt.

Edit: I think depending on whether the Wings have players go on regular IR, like if Tootoo isn't ready for the start of the season but doesn't need the full LTIR (10 games/24 days), that reduces the roster spot he takes up but his salary cap still counts. So there's a chance that the Wings won't have to make any roster moves if Helm & Eaves are LTIR & Tootoo is on regular IR to start the season. If that does happen though & Nyquist starts the season with the big club, he'll be in Detroit the entire season.

Edited by ogreslayer

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If both Eaves & Helm are out on LTIR, as stated in my edit, yes it does solve the cap problem. The Wings are currently a little under $2.4m over the cap & you can take Helm's $2.125m & Eaves' $1.2m cap hits off the books if they both start the season on LTIR. Last time I checked 2.125+1.2>2.4. That would actually put the Wings $937k below the cap limit & buys Kenny some time to solve the cap issue until either Helm or Eaves comes back. That also means if he moves Sammy to GR, they get additional cap relief of $100k so they would then be $1.03m below the cap. And as I said before, I still don't have much confidence that it plays out that way & think there's a pretty good chance that Nyquist proves to be the odd man out because he is still waiver exempt.

Edit: I think depending on whether the Wings have players go on regular IR, like if Tootoo isn't ready for the start of the season but doesn't need the full LTIR (10 games/24 days), that reduces the roster spot he takes up but his salary cap still counts. So there's a chance that the Wings won't have to make any roster moves if Helm & Eaves are LTIR & Tootoo is on regular IR to start the season. If that does happen though & Nyquist starts the season with the big club, he'll be in Detroit the entire season.

Unless they are dumb enough to trade him, in order to keep the useless slugs around (sammy, Cleary) damn Kenny's loyalty sometimes. :crybaby:

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He may not be an enforcer but if we didn't have him we would be one wimpy team.

You mean Ericsson, Smith, Abdelkader, Bertuzzi and Quincey won't be enough to handle Boston, Ottawa and Toronto in the physicality department?

Edited by GMRwings1983

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You mean Ericsson, Smith, Abdelkader, Bertuzzi and Quincey won't be enough to handle Boston, Ottawa and Toronto in the physicality department?

Those guys play regular shifts, can actually play hockey, and some of them are vital to the team's success. Give me more Orr's and Parros' plz. More 3 minute, non playoff hockey playing, pugilist gods.

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Those guys play regular shifts, can actually play hockey, and some of them are vital to the team's success. Give me more Orr's and Parros' plz. More 3 minute, non playoff hockey playing, pugilist gods.

I agree. I want to see guys whose stats read like 65GP, 1G, 1A, 312PIM.

Hockey used to be more fun. :turn:

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

With Eaves, Helm, and Gustavsson probably going on LTIR, Tootoo doesn't need to be trimmed right now. To consider this affirmation of his acquisition of a long-term roster spot would be a bit rash. He's the most expendable member of the team at present, especially as he'll very possibly be claimed on waivers.

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With Eaves, Helm, and Gustavsson probably going on LTIR, Tootoo doesn't need to be trimmed right now. To consider this affirmation of his acquisition of a long-term roster spot would be a bit rash. He's the most expendable member of the team at present, especially as he'll very possibly be claimed on waivers.

Gustavsson wouldn't matter, we would have to bring mrazek up to be backup so that wouldn't open up a spot anyway

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Unless they are dumb enough to trade him, in order to keep the useless slugs around (sammy, Cleary) damn Kenny's loyalty sometimes. :crybaby:

Holland has no loyalty to Samuelsson, as is evident by the fact that only an injury saved the latter from a buyout.

Gustavsson wouldn't matter, we would have to bring mrazek up to be backup so that wouldn't open up a spot anyway

Yeah, good point.

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Holland has no loyalty to Samuelsson, as is evident by the fact that only an injury saved the latter from a buyout.

Yeah, good point.

As far as I know he never even tried. Maybe he assumed Sammy would try that but his agent even said he was never approached about a buyout

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With Eaves, Helm, and Gustavsson probably going on LTIR, Tootoo doesn't need to be trimmed right now. To consider this affirmation of his acquisition of a long-term roster spot would be a bit rash. He's the most expendable member of the team at present, especially as he'll very possibly be claimed on waivers.

It's a shame, because he's probably the least expendable 4th liner, in terms of similar type players on the roster (there are none).

To me, guys like Sammy/Miller/Eaves are more expendable, since they can be cancelled out by other guys like them.

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It's a shame, because he's probably the least expendable 4th liner, in terms of similar type players on the roster (there are none).

To me, guys like Sammy/Miller/Eaves are more expendable, since they can be cancelled out by other guys like them.

I said the same thing but some folks think that Miller and Eaves are superstars that can;t be replaced on the PK

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I said the same thing but some folks think that Miller and Eaves are superstars that can;t be replaced on the PK

They can be replaced easily on the PK. They're not exactly a prime Maltby or Draper.

In all honesty, any 4th liner is expendable, but on this roster, Tootoo is the only lower line player that can hit hard and drop the gloves.

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Guest Crymson   
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Humorously enough, this article was posted today. The author, who is now Yahoo's main hockey writer, wrote for the Detroit Free Press for a long time before taking his current job.

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The Wings won whether they had enforcers on their roster or didn't.

Also, I personally don't think of guys like MIller, Eaves or Emmerton as skill guys, nor is every fighter a mindless goon who can't play hockey. Holland seems to have a very cut and dry view in that article.

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Guest Crymson   
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The Wings won whether they had enforcers on their roster or didn't.

Also, I personally don't think of guys like MIller, Eaves or Emmerton as skill guys, nor is every fighter a mindless goon who can't play hockey. Holland seems to have a very cut and dry view in that article.

As I've mentioned, the category of capable power forwards who both score and fight has been shrinking for the past 20 years, and is now almost gone. There were zero scoring forwards amongst the top 20 in fighting majors in 2013, and only two (Clarkson and Simmonds) in the top 30. Also almost extinct are quality defensemen who will drop the gloves. There were zero amongst the top 50 in fighting majors last season, with the first decent one (Kaleta) placing #52.

In general, most players who fight regularly are good for little else. Of the most prolific fighters last season (let's call it the top 25), only Nystrom was useful for anything beyond fisticuffs. In other words, the data disagrees with your assertion.

More, there has simply been less and less need for pure fighters as time has gone on and the game has become more refined, and most teams have found it fitting to use that roster spot for a more generally valuable player. There has also been steadily less need for the average player to drop the gloves at all.

I know you yearn for the old days where this particular category is concerned, but that period is gone and likely won't be coming back.

Edited by Crymson

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The Wings won whether they had enforcers on their roster or didn't.

Also, I personally don't think of guys like MIller, Eaves or Emmerton as skill guys, nor is every fighter a mindless goon who can't play hockey. Holland seems to have a very cut and dry view in that article.

See I read that as the opposite, I took that he was saying if he could get a Lucic type big body that also has skill he would, but there are very few legit Power Forwards in this league.

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Humorously enough, this article was posted today. The author, who is now Yahoo's main hockey writer, wrote for the Detroit Free Press for a long time before taking his current job.

Good read, however, it fails to mention a CRITICAL component of the TOR/BUF incident. What happens the next time they play? Is John Scott going to be sat because BUF wants to avoid fights? No, if he is not in the minors he will play. He will still be a deterrent from TOR players hacking and whacking BUF skill guys. And he will probably have to fight a TOR enforcers.

So when a goon goes and shoulders Z in the head, pops Datsyuk in the mouth, cross-checks Alfredsson in the face, no one will be there to retaliate/answer the bell. Tootoo is what we have that can manage any kind of challenge. He is small and a light-heavyweight at best, but he can run people and isn't afraid to jump up and smack Scott in the mouth. If we lose him, we are left with Abdelkader (who at best can grab a jersey and fall down), Ericsson (who is dangerously close to pulling a Lilja everytime he fights someone who CAN fight), and Bert (too old, but holds his own against agitators like Phanny and Torres, NOT fighters).

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Good read, however, it fails to mention a CRITICAL component of the TOR/BUF incident. What happens the next time they play? Is John Scott going to be sat because BUF wants to avoid fights? No, if he is not in the minors he will play. He will still be a deterrent from TOR players hacking and whacking BUF skill guys. And he will probably have to fight a TOR enforcers.

So when a goon goes and shoulders Z in the head, pops Datsyuk in the mouth, cross-checks Alfredsson in the face, no one will be there to retaliate/answer the bell. Tootoo is what we have that can manage any kind of challenge. He is small and a light-heavyweight at best, but he can run people and isn't afraid to jump up and smack Scott in the mouth. If we lose him, we are left with Abdelkader (who at best can grab a jersey and fall down), Ericsson (who is dangerously close to pulling a Lilja everytime he fights someone who CAN fight), and Bert (too old, but holds his own against agitators like Phanny and Torres, NOT fighters).

When was the last time Z or D got "popped" in the mouth?

When has getting punched in the face ever stopped anyone from slashing or hacking.

In your own example, Phil Kessel continued to hack away at John Scott, that is a non enforcer/goon hacking away at a heavy. Taking huge swings by the way! (his bs suspension of 3 fake games is another topic for another day)

So where is your deterrent again?

Listen I would prefer the players policed themselves like they used to, it forces them to respect each other. However rules have changed that, and the rules they continue to put in place change it even more.

The new Helmet rule is exhibit A in this case.

Not only is fighting potentially the same 17 minutes(5 for fighting, 2 for instigating, 2 for 3rd man in, 10 min misconduct) in PIMs it could have been before but now they are tacking on another 2 min possibility, for doing the honorable thing!

The league is trying to usher out fighting in a less publicize way the NFL is trying to legislate head hits out of the game.

IF John Scott Crosschecks Dats in the face, do you really think nothing will happen, that no one will try to exact revenge (which is all you are looking for anyway), that the league will not suspend him?

Dats is more likely to get a concussion from a hit or slew foot than he is to get one from being crosschecked in the face. Because in the history of the league you can count violent crosschecks to the face on your hands!

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As I've mentioned, the category of capable power forwards who both score and fight has been shrinking for the past 20 years, and is now almost gone. There were zero scoring forwards amongst the top 20 in fighting majors in 2013, and only two (Clarkson and Simmonds) in the top 30. Also almost extinct are quality defensemen who will drop the gloves. There were zero amongst the top 50 in fighting majors last season, with the first decent one (Kaleta) placing #52.

In general, most players who fight regularly are good for little else. Of the most prolific fighters last season (let's call it the top 25), only Nystrom was useful for anything beyond fisticuffs. In other words, the data disagrees with your assertion.

More, there has simply been less and less need for pure fighters as time has gone on and the game has become more refined, and most teams have found it fitting to use that roster spot for a more generally valuable player. There has also been steadily less need for the average player to drop the gloves at all.

I know you yearn for the old days where this particular category is concerned, but that period is gone and likely won't be coming back.

I'd "like" this post 5 times if I could! Of course, with Red Wings fans, it's mostly preaching to the converted.

Even if you believed that a John Scott-level enforcer actually had some redeemable value on an NHL team (which I don't), Jordin Tootoo isn't that guy. He's actually more of a pest and agitator that elevates the level of chippiness in any game he plays in. Tootoo running guys behind the play and generally being annoying encourages other teams to retaliate with cheap shots against all Detroit players, as opposed to just playing hockey. And yet, some fans still tell themselves that you need Tootoo to fight people after a cheap shot has already occurred, because that somehow has "deterrent" effect. Never bought it.

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I'd "like" this post 5 times if I could! Of course, with Red Wings fans, it's mostly preaching to the converted.

Even if you believed that a John Scott-level enforcer actually had some redeemable value on an NHL team (which I don't), Jordin Tootoo isn't that guy. He's actually more of a pest and agitator that elevates the level of chippiness in any game he plays in. Tootoo running guys behind the play and generally being annoying encourages other teams to retaliate with cheap shots against all Detroit players, as opposed to just playing hockey. And yet, some fans still tell themselves that you need Tootoo to fight people after a cheap shot has already occurred, because that somehow has "deterrent" effect. Never bought it.

When was the last time you seen tootoo run someone behind the play? And explain to me the difference between he and Helm. I think we seen the perfect example why we need a player like Tootoo on the ice in the Chicago playoff series when they started playing really chippy against us. I feel real strong as that being one of the main reason why Detroit was thrown off of their game and lost that series. We had no one to stand up to the Bickell's and the likes on Chicago. That's why yeah not even I want a "goon" on our team because I feel the same way we can play without them but we do need players like tootoo that hit,not afraid to drop the gloves with just about anyone,has heart and can even chip in on offense. It may not be a total deterrent which I have never said he was but it does keep the players he is on the ice honest to a point.

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I like this thread. So many different views on Tootoo.

Personally I think if worked on his fore-checking ability (which it seems so far he has). He could be a good player to go to the hard areas and cause turnovers / mistakes for the other team. He is a player that doesn't always do what you expect him to do, which is something wings were missing before they signed him.

I agree that he is not an enforcer and wont "Protect" our skill players like an enforcer does.

Whatever happens he is still fun to watch.

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