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TheDetroitRedWings

Wings to Keep Tootoo?

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Good read, however, it fails to mention a CRITICAL component of the TOR/BUF incident. What happens the next time they play? Is John Scott going to be sat because BUF wants to avoid fights? No, if he is not in the minors he will play. He will still be a deterrent from TOR players hacking and whacking BUF skill guys. And he will probably have to fight a TOR enforcers.

So when a goon goes and shoulders Z in the head, pops Datsyuk in the mouth, cross-checks Alfredsson in the face, no one will be there to retaliate/answer the bell. Tootoo is what we have that can manage any kind of challenge. He is small and a light-heavyweight at best, but he can run people and isn't afraid to jump up and smack Scott in the mouth. If we lose him, we are left with Abdelkader (who at best can grab a jersey and fall down), Ericsson (who is dangerously close to pulling a Lilja everytime he fights someone who CAN fight), and Bert (too old, but holds his own against agitators like Phanny and Torres, NOT fighters).

And how often has that happened in recent memory, whether against teams from the west or teams from the new conference? Eh? I don't remember any instances. Some people are acting as if the eastern conference is a new, unknown universe, and that gameplay will be a paradigm shift away from what it is in the western conference. That just ain't so, and it ignores the fact that the Wings have regularly played against eastern conference teams every season but the last.

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And how often has that happened in recent memory, whether against teams from the west or teams from the new conference? Eh? I don't remember any instances. Some people are acting as if the eastern conference is a new, unknown universe, and that gameplay will be a paradigm shift away from what it is in the western conference. That just ain't so, and it ignores the fact that the Wings have regularly played against eastern conference teams every season but the last.

When is the last time you have heard we had a legitimate rival team in the East or that one was even starting to get that way with the wings? I think it does matter to a point what side you are playing on since it seems that when you play teams in your same conference they play harder against their own because of how the playoffs work on who gets in and who doesn't. From what I remember and have seen the East has been known for more physical teams/play then what the west has had so I can totally see why we would need to keep players like Tootoo even more now that we are in the East.

Edited by hillbillywingsfan

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When is the last time you have heard we had a legitimate rival team in the East or that one was even starting to get that way with the wings? I think it does matter to a point what side you are playing on since it seems that when you play teams in your same conference they play harder against their own because of how the playoffs work on who gets in and who doesn't. From what I remember and have seen the East has been known for more physical teams/play then what the west has had so I can totally see why we would need to keep players like Tootoo even more now that we are in the East.

This is a strange notion, one that doesn't agree with the facts. For fun, I performed and posted a data-based analysis on this topic a few months ago. There was no significant difference (indeed, the gap was miniscule) between the West and the East in terms of fights and hits. There are, beyond this, pretty basic reasons why no real variance in play exists between the two conferences: all of those involved in the matter are professional hockey players; there are (obviously) no environmental differences between the conferences that would account for such a disparity; many (perhaps most) of these players have resided in both conferences throughout their careers; and so on. Those with the most influence over the degree of physicality in play are general managers---in player selection---and coaches---in play direction---both of whom see regular turnover, and very many of whom have served in both conferences.

The post in question is here.

Edited by Crymson

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This is a strange notion, one that doesn't agree with the facts. For fun, I performed and posted a data-based analysis on this topic a few months ago. There was no significant difference (indeed, the gap was miniscule) between the West and the East in terms of fights and hits. There are, beyond this, pretty basic reasons why no real variance in play exists between the two conferences: all of those involved in the matter are professional hockey players; there are (obviously) no environmental differences between the conferences that would account for such a disparity; many (perhaps most) of these players have resided in both conferences throughout their careers; and so on. Those with the most influence over the degree of physicality in play are general managers---in player selection---and coaches---in play direction---both of whom see regular turnover, and very many of whom have served in both conferences.

The post in question is here.

I would be curious to see how that would turn out if you added PIM as one of the stats as well.

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When was the last time Z or D got "popped" in the mouth?

When has getting punched in the face ever stopped anyone from slashing or hacking.

In your own example, Phil Kessel continued to hack away at John Scott, that is a non enforcer/goon hacking away at a heavy. Taking huge swings by the way! (his bs suspension of 3 fake games is another topic for another day)

So where is your deterrent again?

Listen I would prefer the players policed themselves like they used to, it forces them to respect each other. However rules have changed that, and the rules they continue to put in place change it even more.

The new Helmet rule is exhibit A in this case.

Not only is fighting potentially the same 17 minutes(5 for fighting, 2 for instigating, 2 for 3rd man in, 10 min misconduct) in PIMs it could have been before but now they are tacking on another 2 min possibility, for doing the honorable thing!

The league is trying to usher out fighting in a less publicize way the NFL is trying to legislate head hits out of the game.

IF John Scott Crosschecks Dats in the face, do you really think nothing will happen, that no one will try to exact revenge (which is all you are looking for anyway), that the league will not suspend him?

Dats is more likely to get a concussion from a hit or slew foot than he is to get one from being crosschecked in the face. Because in the history of the league you can count violent crosschecks to the face on your hands!

Shea Weber smacking Hank's head into the boards wasn't enough?

How about Shaw and Bickell constantly going after our stars during scrums and whistles. Think they'd do that with a MacIntyre on the bench watching? I wouldn't if I was them.

I've said this before, if I'm a pest or fake tough guy playing in the NHL, I'd love to play against a team like the Wings, because I'd constantly harass Zetterberg and Datsyuk after whistles, get up in their face, try to get them off their game. Why? Because I'd know nobody would do s*** to me.

At the same time, I'd be hesitant to go after star players on the Bruins or Senators, because they have tough guys all over the roster.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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Shea Weber smacking Hank's head into the boards wasn't enough?

My very first thought when that question was asked! Are our memories really that short?

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My very first thought when that question was asked! Are our memories really that short?

But Zetterberg didn't get injured, so everything's alright.

:rolleyes:

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But Zetterberg didn't get injured, so everything's alright.

:rolleyes:

I don't know that anyone would've prevented it, but it was sad when a 38 year old with a bad back is the one to drop the gloves with Weber next time the teams played.

Good on Bert but doing it, but jeez.

Bert fighting SOB twice in the same game is a good example of how sticking up for yourself can change the tone of the game. They were running guys all game until that point.

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Shea Weber smacking Hank's head into the boards wasn't enough?

If you're stooping to that as your evidence, then you're truly short on material. Your argument is that fighters are needed to prevent other players from physically abusing (or, in your words, "gooning up")a team's skill players. The incident in question took place at the very end of a game, and occurred because Weber lost his temper. It was neither a calculated act of abuse nor something that having a fighter on the team would have prevented.

I would be curious to see how that would turn out if you added PIM as one of the stats as well.

The majority of penalties arise from mundane infractions such as interference, hooking, tripping, high sticking, and the sort. Only a minority transpire as the result of roughing, boarding, and other penalties of the sort. As such, quantity of penalty minutes is not in any fashion an accurate measure of physical play.

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Bert fighting SOB twice in the same game is a good example of how sticking up for yourself can change the tone of the game. They were running guys all game until that point.

I don't recall any untoward behavior on the part of the Predators in that game. Indeed, they were in control of the game until the 3rd period. Bertuzzi did fight in order to give a boost to the team, but he said that it was more the embarrassment of being totally outplayed that really provided the spark.

Anyway, this would still not fit with the argument to keep Tootoo, as Bertuzzi brings (or brought) much more to the table than a willingness to fight. Tootoo does not.

Edited by Crymson

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If you're stooping to that as your evidence, then you're truly short on material. Your argument is that fighters are needed to prevent other players from physically abusing (or, in your words, "gooning up")a team's skill players. The incident in question took place at the very end of a game, and occurred because Weber lost his temper. It was neither a calculated act of abuse nor something that having a fighter on the team would have prevented.

The majority of penalties arise from mundane infractions such as interference, hooking, tripping, high sticking, and the sort. Only a minority transpire as the result of roughing, boarding, and other penalties of the sort. As such, quantity of penalty minutes is not in any fashion an accurate measure of physical play.

Maybe. It's possible that Weber would be less likely to lose his temper if he knew he'd get his ass beat the next game. I doubt he was scared of retribution from Bertuzzi or anyone else on the roster.

I don't recall any untoward behavior on the part of the Predators in that game. Indeed, they were in control of the game until the 3rd period. Bertuzzi did fight in order to give a boost to the team, but he said that it was more the embarrassment of being totally outplayed that really provided the spark.

Anyway, this would still not fit with the argument to keep Tootoo, as Bertuzzi brings (or brought) much more to the table than a willingness to fight. Tootoo does not.

Actually, Bertuzzi doesn't bring anything to the table anymore.

And you're wrong on calling Tootoo one-dimensional. It's not just fighting. He's the only 4th liner we have that regularly goes for hard hits and forechecking the defense. He's not a big guy, but he puts more fear into defenders than a hit from Emmerton, Eaves or Miller.

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I'm really looking forward to this season with the Wings adding Alfie to the mix. As I've stated previously I see good things for the Wings so my question is:

The Wings IMHO seem to concern themselves with how they play not the other team-they focus on skill not shenanigans-hence no true enforcer(s). Why change that? Let the other team put plugs on the ice and just skate around them. I'll put skill first any day. If an enforcer has no one to fight them what good is he? It's not like the West doesn't have evil weasels and you seemed to work through that.

I think you'll be ok as is, no need for an enforcer because that's just not your game.

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can't believe that people are still questioning the role of enforcers. Look no further than Toronto or Edmonton, the Canucks tried to take advantage of them and Kassian broke Gagners jaw with a stupid reckless stickswing. What does MacTavish do? he gets the best Guy for the job and people can already bet on Kassian having to dance with the beast that is Macintyre.

you think Weber would have lost his temper if the Wings had a guy like him Orr or MacGrattan? no way even Eakins stated that Mac will "help" other players to keep their sticks down.

After what happened with Scott and Kessel, one can almost count on the Leafs enforcers to jump other players and yes, this includes Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

A guy like Tootoo scares nobody but beasts like Scott do..

sent from a mobile device autocorrections errors are possible!

Edited by frankgrimes

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Ok, I see your point but.... Ottawa vs.NYR in the 2012 playoffs and Boyle takes liberties with Karlsson. Alfredsson blows a gasket and cross checks Rinaldo to the face. None of these are enforcers. Carkner takes Boyle to school in an epic beatdown. Everything calms down and we get back to hockey and the Sens lose in 7. Ottawa still lost. Carkner never fought another enforcer in that series and left as a UFA to fade into hockey's wilderness.

How did Carkner change the outcome of that series other than making the highlights at 11pm? Ottawa was still beaten by skill.

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Ok, I see your point but.... Ottawa vs.NYR in the 2012 playoffs and Boyle takes liberties with Karlsson. Alfredsson blows a gasket and cross checks Rinaldo to the face. None of these are enforcers. Carkner takes Boyle to school in an epic beatdown. Everything calms down and we get back to hockey and the Sens lose in 7. Ottawa still lost. Carkner never fought another enforcer in that series and left as a UFA to fade into hockey's wilderness.

How did Carkner change the outcome of that series other than making the highlights at 11pm? Ottawa was still beaten by skill.

It's false to assume that enforcers are there to change the outcome of a game, that's what guys like Sidney, Pavel or Suter are for. Enforcers are on the ice to protect the young and star players. Look at the Islanders teams.tried to bully them till they have had enough and took the Penguins to school score and fightingwise! Since then the Pens are bringing more of a clean game against the Isles and the rest of the league took notice.

I'd also like to add that the Send could ice a pretty tough team if you guys are.dressing Kassian, Neil and Carkner that's a very good 3 punch trio.

sent from a mobile device autocorrections errors are possible!

hillbillywingsfan likes this

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Maybe. It's possible that Weber would be less likely to lose his temper if he knew he'd get his ass beat the next game. I doubt he was scared of retribution from Bertuzzi or anyone else on the roster.

I doubt it. A loss of temper great enough to drive one to such an act indicates a lack of forethought. More, Weber is a rather tough customer himself. I doubt he'd be afraid even of any of the pure fighters out there.

Actually, Bertuzzi doesn't bring anything to the table anymore.

He did back then. Tootoo doesn't now.

And you're wrong on calling Tootoo one-dimensional. It's not just fighting. He's the only 4th liner we have that regularly goes for hard hits and forechecking the defense. He's not a big guy, but he puts more fear into defenders than a hit from Emmerton, Eaves or Miller.

Those people who talk about the utility of enforcers are generally those who bring up this baseless concept of "striking fear" into the other side. Hockey players are professional athletes playing a sport---they're not fighting in the arena---and most of them have been playing it for almost the entirety of their lives thus far. They are experienced at the game and know what comes with it. They do not occupy the ice in abject terror of one player or another just because the other guy is known to hit hard.

Edited by Crymson

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I doubt it. A loss of temper great enough to drive one to such an act indicates a lack of forethought. More, Weber is a rather tough customer himself. I doubt he'd be afraid even of any of the pure fighters out there.

He did back then. Tootoo doesn't now.

Those people who talk about the utility of enforcers are generally those who bring up this baseless concept of "striking fear" into the other side. Hockey players are professional athletes playing a sport---they're not fighting in the arena---and most of them have been playing it for almost the entirety of their lives thus far. They are experienced at the game and know what comes with it. They do not occupy the ice in abject terror of one player or another just because the other guy is known to hit hard.

Not terror, but they're more likely to cause defenders to make mistakes with the puck the next time he's on the forecheck. Also, a guy who forechecks well is more likely to wear defenders down over the course of a game.

Not to mention, a big hit can spark a team up.

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Not terror, but they're more likely to cause defenders to make mistakes with the puck the next time he's on the forecheck. Also, a guy who forechecks well is more likely to wear defenders down over the course of a game.

Not to mention, a big hit can spark a team up.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are very widely regarded as two of the best forecheckers in the NHL, and yet they are not very physical at all.

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Not terror, but they're more likely to cause defenders to make mistakes with the puck the next time he's on the forecheck.

"More likely" is a thoroughly relative term. It's entirely possible that they're more likely to make mistakes in that situation, but unlikely. And if they are, it's probably not by any appreciable amount.

Also, a guy who forechecks well is more likely to wear defenders down over the course of a game.

The Wings have an admirable number of forecheckers, so I don't see your point.

Not to mention, a big hit can spark a team up.

Like when? Kronwall is one of the hardest hitters in the league, but I can't remember the last time this had an appreciable effect upon anything but the crowd and the guy who got hit.

Edited by Crymson

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The enforcer knocks all of Andrew Shaw's teeth out when he starts to take liberties against our top 6 guys that swing momentum when the refs dont call penalties. We are fooling ourselves thinking we dont need a 6'3" 235 lb guy who can play 8 mins a night and break a jaw when necessary.

hillbillywingsfan likes this

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I love the "Well player X wouldn't take liberties if we had a 6'3 235 pound guy who would break jaws." argument.

Really, the only people who are not going to take liberties because John Scott is on the roster are the guys unlikely to do it to begin with.

When Matt Cooke laid out Savard, wasn't Savard a member of the big bad Bruins, not the soft euro Wings?

Because John Scott is on Buffalo's roster does that mean no one will ever take a dirty shot on a Sabre player?

No it does not, in fact more than likely it will have no impact at all!

A guy like Raffi Torres is not sitting on the bench looking at the opponents bench thinking:

"Man I better not take a run at Bergeron, Thornton may knock my teeth out!"

Again, the league has changed, they are legislating fighting out of hockey.

Not because Hockey fans like you or me don't like it, but because some soccer mom somewhere doesn't want little Johnny to see it, Won't some one please think of the children.

But the Goons stop things from happening argument is BS, guys who take liberties will take them with or without a John Scott on your roster.

EDIT: BTW nice job of coming up with one incident in the last what 3 seasons where Z or D got "gooned" up, so the WIngs' need a guy on their roster to eat up 8 minutes a night doing nothing but being ready for the once in a three year event.

Edited by Opie

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Like when? Kronwall is one of the hardest hitters in the league, but I can't remember the last time this had an appreciable effect upon anything but the crowd and the guy who got hit.

I hope you really don't think that a big hit or a big fight doesn't spark a team or really have an effect. Besides if you are correct and all it does is get the crowd fired up...do you not agree that even having a crowd behind you all fired up helps a team? Or is it all these years when they rank hardest barns to play at just fluff and it means nothing?

GMRwings1983 likes this

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Maybe. It's possible that Weber would be less likely to lose his temper if he knew he'd get his ass beat the next game. I doubt he was scared of retribution from Bertuzzi or anyone else on the roster.

Actually, Bertuzzi doesn't bring anything to the table anymore.

And you're wrong on calling Tootoo one-dimensional. It's not just fighting. He's the only 4th liner we have that regularly goes for hard hits and forechecking the defense. He's not a big guy, but he puts more fear into defenders than a hit from Emmerton, Eaves or Miller.

Agreed...whether or not he is one dimensional(which i do not believe) is a moot point, because the opponets sure as hell know when he is on the ice every shift and that dimension cannot be said about most nhlers.

Could care less if he ever fights. His value lies in his enegry, intensity and non stop engine. Toots game is chaos and creates opportunites. Give that dude 3rd line or even 2nd line minutes and he puts up 40+ pts! I know i sound like a skipping record, my apologies.

Oops, my post was a Tootoo post, just noticed some bert talk BUT this was about Toot.

Edited by beachwing

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The enforcer knocks all of Andrew Shaw's teeth out when he starts to take liberties against our top 6 guys that swing momentum when the refs dont call penalties. We are fooling ourselves thinking we dont need a 6'3" 235 lb guy who can play 8 mins a night and break a jaw when necessary.

Tootoo would have broken Shaws jaw!

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