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Wings to Keep Tootoo?


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#61 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:59 PM

Bert fighting SOB twice in the same game is a good example of how sticking up for yourself can change the tone of the game.  They were running guys all game until that point. 

 

I don't recall any untoward behavior on the part of the Predators in that game. Indeed, they were in control of the game until the 3rd period. Bertuzzi did fight in order to give a boost to the team, but he said that it was more the embarrassment of being totally outplayed that really provided the spark. 

 

Anyway, this would still not fit with the argument to keep Tootoo, as Bertuzzi brings (or brought) much more to the table than a willingness to fight. Tootoo does not.


Edited by Crymson, 25 September 2013 - 08:13 PM.


#62 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:14 PM

 

 

If you're stooping to that as your evidence, then you're truly short on material. Your argument is that fighters are needed to prevent other players from physically abusing (or, in your words, "gooning up")a team's skill players. The incident in question took place at the very end of a game, and occurred because Weber lost his temper. It was neither a calculated act of abuse nor something that having a fighter on the team would have prevented.

 

 

The majority of penalties arise from mundane infractions such as interference, hooking, tripping, high sticking, and the sort. Only a minority transpire as the result of roughing, boarding, and other penalties of the sort. As such, quantity of penalty minutes is not in any fashion an accurate measure of physical play.

 

Maybe.  It's possible that Weber would be less likely to lose his temper if he knew he'd get his ass beat the next game.  I doubt he was scared of retribution from Bertuzzi or anyone else on the roster.  


 

I don't recall any untoward behavior on the part of the Predators in that game. Indeed, they were in control of the game until the 3rd period. Bertuzzi did fight in order to give a boost to the team, but he said that it was more the embarrassment of being totally outplayed that really provided the spark. 

 

Anyway, this would still not fit with the argument to keep Tootoo, as Bertuzzi brings (or brought) much more to the table than a willingness to fight. Tootoo does not.

 

Actually, Bertuzzi doesn't bring anything to the table anymore.

 

And you're wrong on calling Tootoo one-dimensional.  It's not just fighting.  He's the only 4th liner we have that regularly goes for hard hits and forechecking the defense. He's not a big guy, but he puts more fear into defenders than a hit from Emmerton, Eaves or Miller.   


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#63 SensViking

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:18 PM

I'm really looking forward to this season with the Wings adding Alfie to the mix. As I've stated previously I see good things for the Wings so my question is:

The Wings IMHO seem to concern themselves with how they play not the other team-they focus on skill not shenanigans-hence no true enforcer(s). Why change that? Let the other team put plugs on the ice and just skate around them. I'll put skill first any day. If an enforcer has no one to fight them what good is he? It's not like the West doesn't have evil weasels and you seemed to work through that.

I think you'll be ok as is, no need for an enforcer because that's just not your game. 



#64 frankgrimes

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:22 PM

can't believe that people are still questioning the role of enforcers. Look no further than Toronto or Edmonton, the Canucks tried to take advantage of them and Kassian broke Gagners jaw with a stupid reckless stickswing. What does MacTavish do? he gets the best Guy for the job and people can already bet on Kassian having to dance with the beast that is Macintyre. you think Weber would have lost his temper if the Wings had a guy like him Orr or MacGrattan? no way even Eakins stated that Mac will "help" other players to keep their sticks down. After what happened with Scott and Kessel, one can almost count on the Leafs enforcers to jump other players and yes, this includes Zetterberg and Datsyuk. A guy like Tootoo scares nobody but beasts like Scott do.. sent from a mobile device autocorrections errors are possible!

Edited by frankgrimes, 25 September 2013 - 09:24 PM.

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#65 SensViking

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:40 PM

Ok, I see your point but.... Ottawa vs.NYR in the 2012 playoffs and Boyle takes liberties with Karlsson. Alfredsson blows a gasket and cross checks Rinaldo to the face. None of these are enforcers. Carkner takes Boyle to school in an epic beatdown. Everything calms down and we get back to hockey and the Sens lose in 7. Ottawa still lost. Carkner never fought another enforcer in that series and left as a UFA to fade into hockey's wilderness.

How did Carkner change the outcome of that series other than making the highlights at 11pm? Ottawa was still beaten by skill.



#66 frankgrimes

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:53 PM

Ok, I see your point but.... Ottawa vs.NYR in the 2012 playoffs and Boyle takes liberties with Karlsson. Alfredsson blows a gasket and cross checks Rinaldo to the face. None of these are enforcers. Carkner takes Boyle to school in an epic beatdown. Everything calms down and we get back to hockey and the Sens lose in 7. Ottawa still lost. Carkner never fought another enforcer in that series and left as a UFA to fade into hockey's wilderness.
How did Carkner change the outcome of that series other than making the highlights at 11pm? Ottawa was still beaten by skill.


It's false to assume that enforcers are there to change the outcome of a game, that's what guys like Sidney, Pavel or Suter are for. Enforcers are on the ice to protect the young and star players. Look at the Islanders teams.tried to bully them till they have had enough and took the Penguins to school score and fightingwise! Since then the Pens are bringing more of a clean game against the Isles and the rest of the league took notice.

I'd also like to add that the Send could ice a pretty tough team if you guys are.dressing Kassian, Neil and Carkner that's a very good 3 punch trio.



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#67 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:05 PM

 

Maybe.  It's possible that Weber would be less likely to lose his temper if he knew he'd get his ass beat the next game.  I doubt he was scared of retribution from Bertuzzi or anyone else on the roster.  

 

I doubt it. A loss of temper great enough to drive one to such an act indicates a lack of forethought. More, Weber is a rather tough customer himself. I doubt he'd be afraid even of any of the pure fighters out there.

 

Actually, Bertuzzi doesn't bring anything to the table anymore.

 

He did back then. Tootoo doesn't now.

 

And you're wrong on calling Tootoo one-dimensional.  It's not just fighting.  He's the only 4th liner we have that regularly goes for hard hits and forechecking the defense. He's not a big guy, but he puts more fear into defenders than a hit from Emmerton, Eaves or Miller.  

 

Those people who talk about the utility of enforcers are generally those who bring up this baseless concept of "striking fear" into the other side. Hockey players are professional athletes playing a sport---they're not fighting in the arena---and most of them have been playing it for almost the entirety of their lives thus far. They are experienced at the game and know what comes with it. They do not occupy the ice in abject terror of one player or another just because the other guy is known to hit hard.


Edited by Crymson, 25 September 2013 - 10:09 PM.


#68 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:32 PM

 

I doubt it. A loss of temper great enough to drive one to such an act indicates a lack of forethought. More, Weber is a rather tough customer himself. I doubt he'd be afraid even of any of the pure fighters out there.

 

 

He did back then. Tootoo doesn't now.

 

 

Those people who talk about the utility of enforcers are generally those who bring up this baseless concept of "striking fear" into the other side. Hockey players are professional athletes playing a sport---they're not fighting in the arena---and most of them have been playing it for almost the entirety of their lives thus far. They are experienced at the game and know what comes with it. They do not occupy the ice in abject terror of one player or another just because the other guy is known to hit hard.

 

Not terror, but they're more likely to cause defenders to make mistakes with the puck the next time he's on the forecheck.  Also, a guy who forechecks well is more likely to wear defenders down over the course of a game.

 

Not to mention, a big hit can spark a team up.  


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#69 Euro_Twins

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:13 PM

 

Not terror, but they're more likely to cause defenders to make mistakes with the puck the next time he's on the forecheck.  Also, a guy who forechecks well is more likely to wear defenders down over the course of a game.

 

Not to mention, a big hit can spark a team up.  

 

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are very widely regarded as two of the best forecheckers in the NHL, and yet they are not very physical at all.



#70 Crymson

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

Not terror, but they're more likely to cause defenders to make mistakes with the puck the next time he's on the forecheck. 

 

"More likely" is a thoroughly relative term. It's entirely possible that they're more likely to make mistakes in that situation, but unlikely. And if they are, it's probably not by any appreciable amount.

 

Also, a guy who forechecks well is more likely to wear defenders down over the course of a game.

 

The Wings have an admirable number of forecheckers, so I don't see your point.

 

Not to mention, a big hit can spark a team up.

 

Like when? Kronwall is one of the hardest hitters in the league, but I can't remember the last time this had an appreciable effect upon anything but the crowd and the guy who got hit.


Edited by Crymson, 25 September 2013 - 11:41 PM.


#71 ForzaVerde

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:53 PM

The enforcer knocks all of Andrew Shaw's teeth out when he starts to take liberties against our top 6 guys that swing momentum when the refs dont call penalties. We are fooling ourselves thinking we dont need a 6'3" 235 lb guy who can play 8 mins a night and break a jaw when necessary.

#72 Opie

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:38 AM

I love the "Well player X wouldn't take liberties if we had a 6'3 235 pound guy who would break jaws." argument.

Really, the only people who are not going to take liberties because John Scott is on the roster are the guys unlikely to do it to begin with.

When Matt Cooke laid out Savard, wasn't Savard a member of the big bad Bruins, not the soft euro Wings?

 

Because John Scott is on Buffalo's roster does that mean no one will ever take a dirty shot on a Sabre player?

 

No it does not, in fact more than likely it will have no impact at all!

 

A guy like Raffi Torres is not sitting on the bench looking at the opponents bench thinking:

 

"Man I better not take a run at Bergeron, Thornton may knock my teeth out!"

 

Again, the league has changed, they are legislating fighting out of hockey.

 

Not because Hockey fans like you or me don't like it, but because some soccer mom somewhere doesn't want little Johnny to see it, Won't some one please think of the children.

 

But the Goons stop things from happening argument is BS, guys who take liberties will take them with or without a John Scott on your roster.

 

 

EDIT: BTW nice job of coming up with one incident in the last what 3 seasons where Z or D got "gooned" up, so the WIngs' need a guy on their roster to eat up 8 minutes a night doing nothing but being ready for the once in a three year event.


Edited by Opie, 26 September 2013 - 07:44 AM.

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#73 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:51 AM

 

 

Like when? Kronwall is one of the hardest hitters in the league, but I can't remember the last time this had an appreciable effect upon anything but the crowd and the guy who got hit.

I hope you really don't think that a big hit or a big fight doesn't spark a team or really have an effect. Besides if you are correct and all it does is get the crowd fired up...do you not agree that even having a crowd behind you all fired up helps a team? Or is it all these years when they rank hardest barns to play at just fluff and it means nothing?


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#74 beachwing

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

 
Maybe.  It's possible that Weber would be less likely to lose his temper if he knew he'd get his ass beat the next game.  I doubt he was scared of retribution from Bertuzzi or anyone else on the roster.  

 
Actually, Bertuzzi doesn't bring anything to the table anymore.
 
And you're wrong on calling Tootoo one-dimensional.  It's not just fighting.  He's the only 4th liner we have that regularly goes for hard hits and forechecking the defense. He's not a big guy, but he puts more fear into defenders than a hit from Emmerton, Eaves or Miller.   

Agreed...whether or not he is one dimensional(which i do not believe) is a moot point, because the opponets sure as hell know when he is on the ice every shift and that dimension cannot be said about most nhlers.

Could care less if he ever fights. His value lies in his enegry, intensity and non stop engine. Toots game is chaos and creates opportunites. Give that dude 3rd line or even 2nd line minutes and he puts up 40+ pts! I know i sound like a skipping record, my apologies.

Oops, my post was a Tootoo post, just noticed some bert talk BUT this was about Toot.

Edited by beachwing, 26 September 2013 - 11:15 AM.


#75 beachwing

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:18 AM

The enforcer knocks all of Andrew Shaw's teeth out when he starts to take liberties against our top 6 guys that swing momentum when the refs dont call penalties. We are fooling ourselves thinking we dont need a 6'3" 235 lb guy who can play 8 mins a night and break a jaw when necessary.


Tootoo would have broken Shaws jaw!

#76 beachwing

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:33 AM

I love the "Well player X wouldn't take liberties if we had a 6'3 235 pound guy who would break jaws." argument.
Really, the only people who are not going to take liberties because John Scott is on the roster are the guys unlikely to do it to begin with.
When Matt Cooke laid out Savard, wasn't Savard a member of the big bad Bruins, not the soft euro Wings?
 
Because John Scott is on Buffalo's roster does that mean no one will ever take a dirty shot on a Sabre player?
 
No it does not, in fact more than likely it will have no impact at all!
 
A guy like Raffi Torres is not sitting on the bench looking at the opponents bench thinking:
 
"Man I better not take a run at Bergeron, Thornton may knock my teeth out!"
 
Again, the league has changed, they are legislating fighting out of hockey.
 
Not because Hockey fans like you or me don't like it, but because some soccer mom somewhere doesn't want little Johnny to see it, Won't some one please think of the children.
 
But the Goons stop things from happening argument is BS, guys who take liberties will take them with or without a John Scott on your roster.
 
 
EDIT: BTW nice job of coming up with one incident in the last what 3 seasons where Z or D got "gooned" up, so the WIngs' need a guy on their roster to eat up 8 minutes a night doing nothing but being ready for the once in a three year event.


Good post.

I forget the year but Maguire from the Blues jumped Yzerman with Probert ON the ice.

Point being, if some idiot wants to run a Crosby, Z or Dats....they will, without a second thought.

the league knows the Wings are NOT a dirty team so an opposing team understands they will never have to worry about one of their stars getting sticked,boarded or cheapshotted by a Wing.

I say f*** the goon...give me some crazy unpredictable dude that nobody really knows what he will do. Thats the kind of player that will make ya think before ya act!

#77 GMRwings1983

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:31 PM

 

"More likely" is a thoroughly relative term. It's entirely possible that they're more likely to make mistakes in that situation, but unlikely. And if they are, it's probably not by any appreciable amount.

 

 

The Wings have an admirable number of forecheckers, so I don't see your point.

 

 

Like when? Kronwall is one of the hardest hitters in the league, but I can't remember the last time this had an appreciable effect upon anything but the crowd and the guy who got hit.

 

Admirable is a good word to describe them, indeed.  


I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game.  Interesting.  


Edited by GMRwings1983, 26 September 2013 - 05:37 PM.

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#78 frankgrimes

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 06:28 PM

 
Admirable is a good word to describe them, indeed.  
I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game.  Interesting.  


The DetroitRedWings including Holland are in for a rude awakening in the east. Like I said there is a reason why Montreal traded for and signed tough guys.

Also these guys are well liked by their teammates and coaches like Eakins already admitted, that they thought about guys like MacIntyre whenever he was on the ice. I don't like the anti tough style, puckpossion is nice as long as you are a powerhouse team but with diminishing skills it'boring.

There is a reason why fans are cheering for fights and bonecrushing hits, you think Orr, Thornton or Scott won't jump Kronwall after one of his hits? -sigh-

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#79 Crymson

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:01 PM

I remember when the Wings dressed Downey and May every night, just about everyone on LGW was cool with it and enjoyed having that toughness in the lineup. Now, everyone is criticizing the idea of signing a guy to play limited minutes just for the fighting aspect of the game.  Interesting.  

 

 

Though "every night" is an exaggeration---Downey played 65 games and May only 40---it's true that people enjoyed them. However, enjoying having such a player is not the same as wanting one around, or feeling it necessary to have one around, or believing that the roster spot might not be better used on a more versatile player.

 

So no, it's not interesting.



#80 Crymson

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:07 PM

The DetroitRedWings including Holland are in for a rude awakening in the east. Like I said there is a reason why Montreal traded for and signed tough guys. Also these guys are well liked by their teammates and coaches like Eakins already admitted, that they thought about guys like MacIntyre whenever he was on the ice. I don't like the anti tough style, puckpossion is nice as long as you are a powerhouse team but with diminishing skills it'boring.

 

Again with this unfounded talk of the East being tougher. It isn't.

 

There is a reason why fans are cheering for fights and bonecrushing hits, you think Orr, Thornton or Scott won't jump Kronwall after one of his hits? -sigh-

 

Remember when Kronwall crushed both Briere and Voracek inside of a month and got beaten up afterward both times by the ultra-tough Flyers? I don't remember it, because it didn't happen that way. Instead, he got challenged afterward and chose not to answer the bell, and no fight came of it either time.

 

Also strange is this idea that none of the teams whose players Kronwall has hit have had an enforcer on the roster. Perhaps the thought is that because it was the West, the coach didn't have his shiny fighter go after Kronwall. Either way, it doesn't make any sense.


Edited by Crymson, 26 September 2013 - 07:10 PM.






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