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unsaddleddonald

Are teams going to "bait" us into fighting?

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Considering the fight Ericsson had last night with Clarkson and Kindl's fight against Boston last week, I'm concerned that teams will bait us into fighting with them. In other words, our guys won't be willing to fight, but the ref won't whistle the instigator and our guys will more or less be forced to fight.

Is this a valid concern?

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The Wings had plenty of teams trying to bait them into fighting in the West, particularly the Ducks. Sometimes someone answers the bell, but for the most part, our guys are pretty disciplined in that regard, and the younger players will probably get a stern talking to should they decide to get baited, from veteran players or coaching staff.

In short: I'm sure we'll see some fights this year, but mostly from guys like Tootoo, or Abdelkader. I wouldn't be shocked to see Ericsson or Smith get into a fight either, but aside from that I wouldn't expect anyone else to drop the gloves. All in all I don't think it will be much different than previous years.

Uncle Danny and Frozen-Man like this

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The Wings had plenty of teams trying to bait them into fighting in the West, particularly the Ducks. Sometimes someone answers the bell, but for the most part, our guys are pretty disciplined in that regard, and the younger players will probably get a stern talking to should they decide to get baited, from veteran players or coaching staff.

In short: I'm sure we'll see some fights this year, but mostly from guys like Tootoo, or Abdelkader. I wouldn't be shocked to see Ericsson or Smith get into a fight either, but aside from that I wouldn't expect anyone else to drop the gloves. All in all I don't think it will be much different than previous years.

Ditto.

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I think more often than not Wings will just let them keep "baiting", not oblige and draw a penalty.

I does appear that teams are trying to "welcome" us to the East, though. I think it's good for re-sparking old rivalries, not to mention the freebie power plays we'll be getting will be pretty nice

Now if the officiating in the preseason is any indication of how it is going to be in the regular season, then we will have something to worry about. Lots of no-calls and phantom calls when other players are trying to instigate, I mean.

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If our powerplay looks as good as it did last night, I sure hope the other teams in the conference keep it up because it's going to be a long year for them shorthanded.

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I does appear that teams are trying to "welcome" us to the East, though.

This is primarily what I meant. Both fights I mentioned seemed to come out of nowhere. Nothing happened to spark them, they sort of just...happened. To me, that is lame.

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If our powerplay looks as good as it did last night, I sure hope the other teams in the conference keep it up because it's going to be a long year for them shorthanded.

Kenny Holland, is that you?

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Kenny Holland, is that you?

I know it's just sort of knee jerk for you to be condescending about everything, but I don't know how you wouldn't be excited about scoring three PP goals against last year's second best penalty killing team. Particularly given how bad our special teams have been for a couple years now.

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I know it's just sort of knee jerk for you to be condescending about everything, but I don't know how you wouldn't be excited about scoring three PP goals against last year's second best penalty killing team. Particularly given how bad our special teams have been for a couple years now.

"The powerplay is our enforcer" crap was annoying to listen to even when we had a good powerplay. The powerplay won't be lights out every night. Also, what about games where you're blowing someone out and they're trying to start fights? Will the powerplay matter then? Of course not, since the game is already decided.

Excuse me if I don't like seeing our team get bullied and picked on, and not try to fight back. Of course I don't agree with this mindset.

Now I like Ericsson fighting back, but I can't envision guys like Franzen or Kronwall wanting to mix it up when challenged. I don't blame them. That shouldn't be their job. Most teams have a guy on the roster who handles the fighting for skilled players. In most cases, that guy is taller than 5'9.

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"The powerplay is our enforcer" crap was annoying to listen to even when we had a good powerplay. The powerplay won't be lights out every night. Also, what about games where you're blowing someone out and they're trying to start fights? Will the powerplay matter then? Of course not, since the game is already decided.

Excuse me if I don't like seeing our team get bullied and picked on, and not try to fight back. Of course I don't agree with this mindset.

Now I like Ericsson fighting back, but I can't envision guys like Franzen or Kronwall wanting to mix it up when challenged. I don't blame them. That shouldn't be their job. Most teams have a guy on the roster who handles the fighting for skilled players. In most cases, that guy is taller than 5'9.

And as much as I like seeing Ericsson play with more of an edge, him fighting takes our #2 D man off the ice for 5 minutes.

If he drops the gloves in the regular season he needs to make sure he's taking someone important off the ice with him.

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"The powerplay is our enforcer" crap was annoying to listen to even when we had a good powerplay. The powerplay won't be lights out every night. Also, what about games where you're blowing someone out and they're trying to start fights? Will the powerplay matter then? Of course not, since the game is already decided.

Excuse me if I don't like seeing our team get bullied and picked on, and not try to fight back. Of course I don't agree with this mindset.

Now I like Ericsson fighting back, but I can't envision guys like Franzen or Kronwall wanting to mix it up when challenged. I don't blame them. That shouldn't be their job. Most teams have a guy on the roster who handles the fighting for skilled players. In most cases, that guy is taller than 5'9.

When exactly are we "getting bullied"? When was the last time an important Red Wing missed time because someone took a run at them? Every team in the league knows the Wings don't fight, and they leave their enforcers in the press box when they play us because of it. This whole, "we need to get tougher because we get bullied" argument is bologna, it's just a post hoc justification used by people who want to see more fights.

I'll take a good powerplay because, ya know, we do that whole powerplay thing a few times a game. You take your enforcers, and keep waiting for teams to "bully" us so that you can say "I told you so".

And as much as I like seeing Ericsson play with more of an edge, him fighting takes our #2 D man off the ice for 5 minutes.

If he drops the gloves in the regular season he needs to make sure he's taking someone important off the ice with him.

As bad as we've traditionally been 4 on 4, I don't know if there's anybody (who will actually fight) who's worth taking that penalty on.

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Considering the fight Ericsson had last night with Clarkson and Kindl's fight against Boston last week, I'm concerned that teams will bait us into fighting with them. In other words, our guys won't be willing to fight, but the ref won't whistle the instigator and our guys will more or less be forced to fight.

Is this a valid concern?

No. Ironically, teams without a fighter are likely to see less challenges; fighters generally challenge other fighters.

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Teams have been baiting the Wings the last 20 years. This is nothing new and the Wings results speak for how that baiting strategy has worked.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

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I have a question...Who in all of the players in the NHL is the best at baiting the wings....The "Master" of "Baiting" if you will. ;)

Not a clue.

"The powerplay is our enforcer" crap was annoying to listen to even when we had a good powerplay. The powerplay won't be lights out every night. Also, what about games where you're blowing someone out and they're trying to start fights? Will the powerplay matter then? Of course not, since the game is already decided.

Excuse me if I don't like seeing our team get bullied and picked on, and not try to fight back. Of course I don't agree with this mindset.

Now I like Ericsson fighting back, but I can't envision guys like Franzen or Kronwall wanting to mix it up when challenged. I don't blame them. That shouldn't be their job. Most teams have a guy on the roster who handles the fighting for skilled players. In most cases, that guy is taller than 5'9.

You seem to see bullying where none exists. It sometimes seems that you want the Wings to get bullied so that your advocacy of enforcers will carry more water. As things stand, the Wings don't get bullied. The fact that they don't have a fighter seems to have no effect whatsoever.

It makes zero difference whether or not players answer the proverbial bell when they're challenged, so I fail to see what is the big deal about the likes Franzen and Kronwall refusing to fight. Perhaps it's an issue you for you simply because you want to see more fighting, but it has no effect upon the outcome of a game.

As I've said before, I think you're longing for a lapsed age of hockey.

Edited by Crymson
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What was interesting was reading the Toronto GDT after the first game, and all their fans were saying they picked the wrong line-up. "Dressing fighters against the Wings is a waste of a spot" was a common refrain.

Still - Abdelkader, Bertuzzi, Ericsson, Smith. Tootoo. We got enough guys that can look after themselves.

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When exactly are we "getting bullied"? When was the last time an important Red Wing missed time because someone took a run at them? Every team in the league knows the Wings don't fight, and they leave their enforcers in the press box when they play us because of it. This whole, "we need to get tougher because we get bullied" argument is bologna, it's just a post hoc justification used by people who want to see more fights.

I'll take a good powerplay because, ya know, we do that whole powerplay thing a few times a game. You take your enforcers, and keep waiting for teams to "bully" us so that you can say "I told you so".

As bad as we've traditionally been 4 on 4, I don't know if there's anybody (who will actually fight) who's worth taking that penalty on.

They might leave their enforcer in the pressbox, but only because they know they have other players that can bully the Red Wings. Someone like Backes or Weber for example. It is not because they are thinking "oh they are the Red Wings, they cant be intimidated or physical play will not work against them". Every team know the way to win against the Red Wings is by playing physical and high forechecking. I often see the argument that enforcer's are a thing of the past and that they are not a deterrent etc, but most teams still carry one and they are quite appreciated by their teammates. Yzerman for example used to be quite vocal about having someone willing to drop the gloves. The same goes for Lidstrom. I guess it is nice to know that if s*** happens there is this guy that will always come to your aid no matter what. Teams will definitely try and take advantage of this team, because it is their best chance to beat us. Might not be a huge deal for a game or two, but it will be very tough deep into the season when players are usually banged up after 50-60 games alone not to mention being at a physical disadvantage. It will be even tougher playing a 7 games series against a team like Boston. I'm not so sure I buy the hype that Detroit will revolutionize the Eastern game, I think that Holland will eventually need to add some big bodies to this lineup to compete in the long run. As suggested by Holland himself. Meanwhile, the Red Wings must play tougher than they are and adding a good enforcer to the lineup will be like adding ten pounds and 2 inches to every player on this squad.
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They might leave their enforcer in the pressbox, but only because they know they have other players that can bully the Red Wings. Someone like Backes or Weber for example. It is not because they are thinking "oh they are the Red Wings, they cant be intimidated or physical play will not work against them". Every team know the way to win against the Red Wings is by playing physical and high forechecking. I often see the argument that enforcer's are a thing of the past and that they are not a deterrent etc, but most teams still carry one and they are quite appreciated by their teammates. Yzerman for example used to be quite vocal about having someone willing to drop the gloves. The same goes for Lidstrom. I guess it is nice to know that if s*** happens there is this guy that will always come to your aid no matter what. Teams will definitely try and take advantage of this team, because it is their best chance to beat us. Might not be a huge deal for a game or two, but it will be very tough deep into the season when players are usually banged up after 50-60 games alone not to mention being at a physical disadvantage. It will be even tougher playing a 7 games series against a team like Boston. I'm not so sure I buy the hype that Detroit will revolutionize the Eastern game, I think that Holland will eventually need to add some big bodies to this lineup to compete in the long run. As suggested by Holland himself. Meanwhile, the Red Wings must play tougher than they are and adding a good enforcer to the lineup will be like adding ten pounds and 2 inches to every player on this squad.

If there were a correlation between size, fighting, hitting, and winning then the biggest team with the most hits and fights would win the Cup almost every year. That doesn't happen. Wanna know what does have a high correlation to winning? Special teams, and goal differential. So when I say I'd rather have a good powerplay than George Parros or Colton Orr or some other garbage enforcer, it's actually supported by something other than whimsy.

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If there were a correlation between size, fighting, hitting, and winning then the biggest team with the most hits and fights would win the Cup almost every year. That doesn't happen. Wanna know what does have a high correlation to winning? Special teams, and goal differential. So when I say I'd rather have a good powerplay than George Parros or Colton Orr or some other garbage enforcer, it's actually supported by something other than whimsy.

Where did anyone say that an enforcer=championships? What an enforcer does equal, though, is less after-the-whistle abuse (which certainly doesn't hurt a teams chances), and maybe a little less of this "Pink Wings" bs, that for anyone who grew up watching the Bruise Bros. or the great 90's Detroit rivalries has a hard time listening to. The in-game stuff is always going to happen, and you can't prevent hitting; this is a physical game. But the extracurricular stuff and some of the targeting can be curtailed simply by having a player or two that can do the same stuff to the other team. Basically, you target one of our stars, two things can happen: 1) You fight. Or 2) Your stars get targeted. Simple as that. That has been the way things have been done in the NHL for quite a long time. Nothing has changed, only the Red Wings have, and not for the better.

I remember a game against Columbus where Boll was running all over the place. Brad May dropped the gloves with him and Boll was mostly silent for the rest of the game. Or what about the Laperriere hit on Lidstrom. You could use that as an example of how even having an enforcer in the line-up does not prevent your stars from getting hurt, but just imagine if we didn't have Downey in the line-up that game. Laperriere does not get embarrassed, TWICE, and that hit basically goes unpunished, making the hit sting even worse, at least to the fans. And I don't remember Downey (or Drake, and later McCarty) exactly hurting Detroit's chances that season ... didn't Detroit win the Stanley Cup that season??? As a matter of fact, name me the last time Detroit, or any team, for that matter, has won a Stanley Cup without at least a part-time enforcer in the line-up. You could make a case for The '06 Hurricanes? Boulerice only played 26 games, but that was still a pretty tough team. Outside of them, I can't think of another team in the last 30-40 years that played a significant portion of the regular season without an enforcer. The '92-93 Canadian?

As long as there is hitting and fighting in the game, there is a role for an enforcer ... if you know what's good for you. At the very least, it brings a little peace of mind, for fans and players.

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Every team know the way to win against the Red Wings is by playing physical and high forechecking.

That's less a function of being "intimidated", more a function of our post-Lidstrom/Rafalski defence being unable to handle the puck under pressure. Quincey, Lashoff and especially Smith were forechecked relentlessly in the playoffs because they kept making mistakes when pressured.

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If there were a correlation between size, fighting, hitting, and winning then the biggest team with the most hits and fights would win the Cup almost every year. That doesn't happen. Wanna know what does have a high correlation to winning? Special teams, and goal differential. So when I say I'd rather have a good powerplay than George Parros or Colton Orr or some other garbage enforcer, it's actually supported by something other than whimsy.

Well naturally there will be a correlation between scoring and winning... But if we look at powerplay as arguably being the best enforcer you will find that the stanley cup winner from the last three years are all in the bottom half of the pp% stats by a fair margin, while at the same time being in the top half of PIM/GP. Not for being goons, but rather being teams with a strong physical presence. I guess the world is a pretty whimsy place...
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That's less a function of being "intimidated", more a function of our post-Lidstrom/Rafalski defence being unable to handle the puck under pressure. Quincey, Lashoff and especially Smith were forechecked relentlessly in the playoffs because they kept making mistakes when pressured.

Red Wings have always been vulnerable to physically strong teams like The Ducks in 2003 and the Flames in 2004. They wouldnt allow the Red Wings to enter the slot but limited our forwards to perimeter shots. So did the Preds in 2012. I think that even during the Lidstrom era teams tried to forecheck high, only it was obviously more difficult then.
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I have a question...Who in all of the players in the NHL is the best at baiting the wings....The "Master" of "Baiting" if you will. ;)

Perry?

Not a clue.

You seem to see bullying where none exists. It sometimes seems that you want the Wings to get bullied so that your advocacy of enforcers will carry more water. As things stand, the Wings don't get bullied. The fact that they don't have a fighter seems to have no effect whatsoever.

It makes zero difference whether or not players answer the proverbial bell when they're challenged, so I fail to see what is the big deal about the likes Franzen and Kronwall refusing to fight. Perhaps it's an issue you for you simply because you want to see more fighting, but it has no effect upon the outcome of a game.

As I've said before, I think you're longing for a lapsed age of hockey.

Huh? Most teams in the league have enforcers or some kind of fighters on their roster. More than us in any case.

You're ignoring that fact and saying that I'm yearning for some era that's gone. It's not gone. There's still fighting and tough guys in the game. Open your eyes.

F.Michael and Hockeymom1960 like this

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I have a question...Who in all of the players in the NHL is the best at baiting the wings....The "Master" of "Baiting" if you will. ;)

Backes and Ott came to mind for me.

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