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Are teams going to "bait" us into fighting?


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#61 Crymson

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

 

Very interesting.



#62 F.Michael

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:07 AM

We seem to hear/read alot of opinions from journalists/sports writers/talk show hosts/bloggers/etc/etc on fighting in todays game (primarily the NHL).

 

How often do we hear the players side of things?

 

IMHO if fighting were to be eliminated at the NHL level - lets have the players vote it out of the game rather than public opinion.



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#63 Opie

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:43 AM

I am more worried about an aggressive forecheck, like that of the B's or the Blackhawks, than I am someone baiting.

This young D has not done very well under extreme forechecking.

I think that is what got the Hawks back in the series last year, ton of pressure on the young D and they tended to cough up the puck.


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"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

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#64 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:21 PM

@DarrenDreger: Yzerman, Shero and Rutherford speak candidly on elimination of fighting. http://t.co/o12FGCFe2P

Posting this here as it seems to be the most relevant open topic.

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#65 F.Michael

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:33 PM

@DarrenDreger: Yzerman, Shero and Rutherford speak candidly on elimination of fighting. http://t.co/o12FGCFe2P

Posting this here as it seems to be the most relevant open topic.

Some interesting viewpoints in that TSN article...Yzerman feeling that fighting should result in game misconducts (as mentioned in the article how he benifited with a certain element within the Wings line up during his days as a player), and Shero's stance on crackdowns to hits to the head (Matt Cooke - need I say more).

 

Quote from the article in which I support 100%...

 

Ninety-eight per cent of NHL players polled in 2011-2012 were in favour of keeping fighting in the game and while there's no immediate plan to conduct a new players survey, the overwhelming support to leave things as they are may not change. And while sensitive to Parros' injury, Flyers forward Vincent Lecavalier said Wednesday that if he was asked to vote again, he would vote the same way and believes fighting still has its place.



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#66 Opie

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:05 PM

I agree the players should have some say, but to cross reference the NFL here,

Not a single player was demanding the league do anything about hits to the head, not former players and certainly not current players. Then a ton of them sued the league over concussions and not educating the players enough.

Most professional athletes are ultra competitive and and carry a Machismo type of swagger, I think they see it as a being a wimp if they do not support fighting.

 

Not a societal pressure, just an innate feeling they have.

 

The league dodged a legal bullet when 3 enforcers died in the same off season and they did not get a class action suit filed against them (that I know of).

 

It would not surprise me if fighting were taken out of the game just simply so the NHL could avoid a potential law suit.


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#67 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

Taking fighting out of the game eliminates peoples livelihoods. Not all of them of course, but alot of guys. Plus, the stars in the NHL still believe there's a place for fighting in the game. I don't think, for those 2 reasons, the PA will ever sign off on getting rid of fighting. As it shouldn't, it will always be a part of the game. It really disappoints me to see Stevie Y say those things, considering he played with Probie, Kocur, McCarty, Shanahan, and many others. I realize he's a GM now, but was a player for so long. Rick Tocchet said it best on Twitter today.

Rick Tocchet ‏@RealRocket22 33m

"Hey I can play with no fighting rules. I will agitate , play aggressive , etc ..against the other teams best players realizing that there
 Isn't a damn thing the other team can do . Other than play the same way back . Becomes a very chippy game with stick work - trust me"

 

Rats are bad enough now, they'll absolutely get out of hand if any retribution for their actions is eliminated. You think those guys are afraid of suspension? Ya right, if Matt Cooke was never banned for life after his actions, no one ever will be. It's a slippery slope the NHL are dealing with now, and I hope they don't make the wrong move. 


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#68 Crymson

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

I'm not against fighting. I think it's a part of the game, though I also think that it's becoming less and less a part of the game. That's fine with me.

 



Some interesting viewpoints in that TSN article...Yzerman feeling that fighting should result in game misconducts (as mentioned in the article how he benifited with a certain element within the Wings line up during his days as a player), and Shero's stance on crackdowns to hits to the head (Matt Cooke - need I say more).

 

 

 

All the punches that Probert took in protecting Yzerman contributed to the latter's early death from chronic traumatic encephalopathy. I suspect it's a burden for Yzerman to know that the guys who took to the ice to protect him and other stars in his day very well may end up with traumatic brain injuries as a result, and that the same thing may begin happening---indeed, has begun happening, Boogaard being an example---to this generation's crop of enforcers. 

 

I think many of those who burn to see more fighting in the NHL don't take into account the damage that years of hockey scraps can do to a player's brain.


Edited by Crymson, 02 October 2013 - 02:52 PM.


#69 newfy

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

All the punches that Probert took in protecting Yzerman contributed to the latter's early death from chronic traumatic encephalopathy. I suspect it's a burden for Yzerman to know that the guys who took to the ice to protect him and other stars in his day very well may end up with traumatic brain injuries as a result, and that the same thing may begin happening---indeed, has begun happening, Boogaard being an example---to this generation's crop of enforcers. 

 

I think many of those who burn to see more fighting in the NHL don't take into account the damage that years of hockey scraps can do to a player's brain.

 

This is true, sooooo many studies have shown ties between heart attacks and getting punched in the head. Much more of a correlation than doing enough blow to kill the average man on a regular basis :rolleyes:


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#70 F.Michael

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

I'm not against fighting. I think it's a part of the game, though I also think that it's becoming less and less a part of the game. That's fine with me.

 


 

 

 

All the punches that Probert took in protecting Yzerman contributed to the latter's early death from chronic traumatic encephalopathy. I suspect it's a burden for Yzerman to know that the guys who took to the ice to protect him and other stars in his day very well may end up with traumatic brain injuries as a result, and that the same thing may begin happening---indeed, has begun happening, Boogaard being an example---to this generation's crop of enforcers. 

 

I think many of those who burn to see more fighting in the NHL don't take into account the damage that years of hockey scraps can do to a player's brain.

Bob Probert suffered a fatal heart attack while working on his boat in the middle of a lake in 80 plus degree heat...His death had nothing to do with the repeated blows he took to his noggin throughout his hockey career...Those 2 conditions - cardiac arrest, and encephalopathy (a degenerative brain disease) have little to nothing in common.

 

Probie's alcohol consumption/caffeine intake/drug use/family genetics (his dad also died from a heart attack) all played a role in his untimely death...Taking punches at that time did not...

 

Now with that being said...If Bob Probert were still alive today - he would most likely notice conditions related to his fisticuffs ie memory loss, loss of coordination, and motor skills  over time are a few examples that occur as he ages.



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#71 Opie

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

Another thought:

Seeing as most of the pro-fight crowd use people getting run to defend their position, where do you stand on fights after clean hits?

Fights right from the face off?

Fights because both enforcers are simply on the ice?

 

Fights where a the guy who "Ran" or committed the egregious act is no longer on the ice, so 2 guys go at it who were not involved in the original act?


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#72 Dabura

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:28 PM

I see an osteopathic physician. (Basically, all about the brain, and stuff.) He hates what hockey did to me and what it does to, well, hockey players. Funny thing is, he's Canadian.

 

Anyway, I think I was going to post something slightly more relevant but I can't remember what it was.

 

Also, what year is it again?


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#73 F.Michael

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

Taking fighting out of the game eliminates peoples livelihoods. Not all of them of course, but alot of guys. Plus, the stars in the NHL still believe there's a place for fighting in the game. I don't think, for those 2 reasons, the PA will ever sign off on getting rid of fighting. As it shouldn't, it will always be a part of the game. It really disappoints me to see Stevie Y say those things, considering he played with Probie, Kocur, McCarty, Shanahan, and many others. I realize he's a GM now, but was a player for so long. Rick Tocchet said it best on Twitter today.

Rick Tocchet ‏@RealRocket22 33m

"Hey I can play with no fighting rules. I will agitate , play aggressive , etc ..against the other teams best players realizing that there
 Isn't a damn thing the other team can do . Other than play the same way back . Becomes a very chippy game with stick work - trust me"

 

Rats are bad enough now, they'll absolutely get out of hand if any retribution for their actions is eliminated. You think those guys are afraid of suspension? Ya right, if Matt Cooke was never banned for life after his actions, no one ever will be. It's a slippery slope the NHL are dealing with now, and I hope they don't make the wrong move. 

That's just it...Not saying enforcers, or fighting equals less turds like Cooke on the ice, but I'd like to think that some form of retribution in the form of a fist being driven into one's face might persuade some opponents from taking liberties.



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#74 Opie

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:30 PM

Bob Probert suffered a fatal heart attack while working on his boat in the middle of a lake in 80 plus degree heat...His death had nothing to do with the repeated blows he took to his noggin throughout his hockey career...Those 2 conditions - cardiac arrest, and encephalopathy (a degenerative brain disease) have little to nothing in common.

 

Probie's alcohol consumption/caffeine intake/drug use/family genetics (his dad also died from a heart attack) all played a role in his untimely death...Taking punches at that time did not...

 

Now with that being said...If Bob Probert were still alive today - he would most likely notice conditions related to his fisticuffs ie memory loss, loss of coordination, and motor skills  over time are a few examples that occur as he ages.

 

Actually the debate about the correlation between CTE and heart disease has been raging on between BU and U of M since 2011.

 

Seeing as the brain technically "controls" bodily functions some experts believe CTE can lead to worsening of existing heart conditions.


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#75 Dabura

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:34 PM

Bob Probert suffered a fatal heart attack while working on his boat in the middle of a lake in 80 plus degree heat...His death had nothing to do with the repeated blows he took to his noggin throughout his hockey career...

 

The blows may not have been the direct cause. But I've gotta think they didn't exactly help matters.

 

Generally speaking, being punched in the head countless times is not good for you.


Edited by Dabura, 02 October 2013 - 03:35 PM.

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#76 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:35 PM

Another thought:
Seeing as most of the pro-fight crowd use people getting run to defend their position, where do you stand on fights after clean hits?
Fights right from the face off?
Fights because both enforcers are simply on the ice?
 
Fights where a the guy who "Ran" or committed the egregious act is no longer on the ice, so 2 guys go at it who were not involved in the original act?

-I can't speak for everybody, but fights after clean hits drive me nuts. It serves as a deterrent for clean, hard hitting.
-Fights right off the draw are not necessarily "staged", in that both players are fighting for the hell of it without any reason or passion. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the Georges Laraque-esque scrap off the draw. However, I couldn't get behind additionally penalizing players for it.
-Fights between two enforcers simply because they're on the ice often, but not always, come off the draw.
-The last statement, I suppose, could be classified as guys, involved in the incident or not, sending a message.
"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

RIP Bob Probert
RIP Wade Belak
RIP Derek Boogaard
RIP Rick Rypien

#77 Opie

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:36 PM

That's just it...Not saying enforcers, or fighting equals less turds like Cooke on the ice, but I'd like to think that some form of retribution in the form of a fist being driven into one's face might persuade some opponents from taking liberties.

 

I would like to think that too, however I am a realist and as such know that getting punched in the face does not stop Matt Cooke, or Chris Simon, or Raffi Torres, or any of the like from doing anything!


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#78 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

 
I would like to think that too, however I am a realist and as such know that getting punched in the face does not stop Matt Cooke, or Chris Simon, or Raffi Torres, or any of the like from doing anything!

This is typically where the instigator rule debate starts.
"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

RIP Bob Probert
RIP Wade Belak
RIP Derek Boogaard
RIP Rick Rypien

#79 Opie

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:40 PM

This is typically where the instigator rule debate starts.

 

I HATE THE INSTIGATOR RULE!!!!!!

 

They need to add a D-bag clause where if the person is a total D-bag (like the ones I mentioned) remove the instigator penalty!!


"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#80 F.Michael

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:43 PM



Another thought:

Seeing as most of the pro-fight crowd use people getting run to defend their position, where do you stand on fights after clean hits?

Fights right from the face off?

Fights because both enforcers are simply on the ice?

 

Fights where a the guy who "Ran" or committed the egregious act is no longer on the ice, so 2 guys go at it who were not involved in the original act?

Fights after clean hits - if the hit is obviously clean, and the opposition is well aware of it - then there shouldn't be a need for a scrap - however with the speed of todays game a teammate may see something that he feels warrants some form of retribution...That's the problem there, and in some cases the player who delivered a clean hit gets jumped.

 

Fights at the face-off - the Probert/Domi, or Probert/Clark scraps come to mind...Guys are chat at center ice, and drop the mitts willingly...I enjoy it if both are willing combatants, there's some history/bad blood, and I'd say a significantly large portion of the crowd in attendance does as well.

 

Fights with enforcers on ice for the hell of it - the answer I gave above somewhat falls into this category as well...Sometimes it'll spark the benches, and get the home crowd into the game...Some may discount what this effect has, but I'm of the opinion it can be a proverbial 'jump start' for a slumping squad...To be honest - I myself am pretty indifferent.

 

Fights that take place with the rat on the bench - for me this is a game by game situation; if it's a heated rivalry with years of bad blood then it can be of some value for either team, but as we all know - nothing's better than seeing the culprit getting his just desserts...If it's between Phoenix/Florida with no history then it'll be a few guys duking it out while the little turd snickers on the bench, and that I'm pretty indifferent to.



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