Steve Yzerman wants Game Misconduct penalties for fighting

[St. Michael (the Red Wing) 422]

I guess I'm not that opposed to what Stevie said. Game misconduct for fighting? It could be worse yet getting rid of fighting all together would be something else.

[Dabura 12,207]

I think I'm with the two above me. You wanna fight, fine, but you're out of the game then. Keeps fighting in the game, but - I have to think - would cut down on all the ridiculous staged fights and the "retribution" for good, clean hits. And pretty much everything the Anaheim Ducks do in the way of "fighting" (see: "sending a message" with forty seconds left. blargh.)

[Dabura 12,207]

Actually, a game misconduct likely wouldn't cut down on that last thing I mentioned - the last-minute antics. In fact, I could see it leading to more of those situations. I guess the fix would be a carry-over system, i.e. if you fight past a certain point in the game, you get tossed from the current game and you sit out the next one.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing) 422]

Actually, a game misconduct likely wouldn't cut down on that last thing I mentioned - the last-minute antics. In fact, I could see it leading to more of those situations. I guess the fix would be a carry-over system, i.e. if you fight past a certain point in the game, you get tossed from the current game and you sit out the next one.

I agree with both your posts above. Thinking about it more a game misconduct probably wouldn't lower the overall fighting in the league as you mentioned. I could guess that a lot of players would just wait till the end of the game to fight. But yeah something like if a player fights at the end of game. Make it a misconduct for the next game as well.

I could guess that at some point they will be keeping track on whos fighting (not that they don't) maybe and say if you get into 5 fights it's a suspension or something. The game is evolving and fighting has been reduced already. I agree I see this trend continuing in the future. And this opinion is coming from a poster who played junior hockey and I got into plenty of fights taking my helmet off.

[FlashyG 1,799]

It's really easy despite what the soccer mums dads of the world think, fighting is here to stay. It has been part of hockey for a long time and always willwill be. Using horrible accidents or suicides as proof that fighting needs to be gone is just classless.

thanks for posting that

one would think the game is already dumbed down enough, guess some people are only happy f hockey turns into soccer on ice...

also don't give me that players that players safety be if the league would care about the players, there is no way they would reduce goalie pads...

FIghting has never been part of hockey. Fighting happens in hockey (and will continue too long after its banned) but its not part of the game.

The OHL has already started working towards punishing fights with game misconducts and the rest of the CHL won't be far behind.

The substance abuse in most of the NHL's suicides has been prescription pain killers taken due to the strain on the body fighting every night causes.

I took this from another board but basketball went through the same phase in the 70's.

In basketball, mugging and fighting were allowed for years, going way back. Teams had designated players at the end of the bench whose entire role was to go out there and rough up the opposing stars and "send a message" or "fire up the team". Players supported this, presuming that if this style of play were outlawed, they'd be targeted for cheap play without being able to do anything about it.

Then December 9, 1977 came along. The season had begun with #1 overall pick Kent Benson elbowing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the chest while fighting for a rebound, and Abdul-Jabbar punched Benson from behind. Benson suffered a broken jaw, Abdul-Jabbar a broken hand. This put the NBA on notice; they didn't need the top overall pick and a major star missing time due to this. Neither player was suspended for their actions, though; this type of thing was common in a league where brawls (including ones that emptied the bench) were frequent.

On December 9, 1977, Houston and the Lakers (who now had Abdul-Jabbar back in the lineup) were playing. Houston's Kevin Kunnert and Los Angeles' Abdul-Jabbar fought for a rebound, then started wrestling. The Lakers' Kermit Washington stepped in for Abdul-Jabbar, and Kunnert threw a punch at Washington. Abdul-Jabbar grabbed Kunnert's arms, and Washington hit Kunnert in the side of the head, bringing Kunnert to one knee. Houston's Rudy Tomjanovich came running over, and Washington turned and punched him with a blow hard enough to displace his face from his skull and rupture his brain capsule. It could have been a fatal injury, and somehow was not. The incident was broadcast coast-to-coast for several days, damaging the NBA's reputation at a time when they were still struggling to find stability.

The NBA's chief legal counsel was David Stern, who recommended that drastic measures be taken immediately, saying in retrospect, "One thing was obvious, you couldn't allow men that big and that strong to go around throwing punches at each other." The NBA's average size wasn't dramatically larger at that time than previously. The average player in 1955 was 6'5" and 206 pounds; in 1977 it was 6'6 1/2" and 207 pounds. What had changed were diet and especially conditioning.

Without question, an NHL player today on average is stronger than when fighting was both more common and more "part of the game". This post contains a link to the Maple Leafs' fitness standards in 1962, which counts as a light warmup today before an actual workout. Look at Raitis Ivanans, who could barely play the game and yet is built as solidly (or more so) as Bobby Hull. An NHL player in 1959 was 5'11" and 178 pounds; today it's 6'1" and 204 pounds. That's not 26 pounds of goo either.

The reality is that there are plenty of NHL players who possess the ability to incapacitate or kill an opponent with a punch, and it's only a matter of time before a worldwide audience gets to watch it being replayed ad nauseum. What will the fallout from that be?

Years back, I tried to counsel a friend who was in an abusive relationship. Trying to convince her that bruises weren't a sign of affection and that a black eye wasn't a love tap was an exercise in futility.

I do know that most NBA players welcomed the changes that the league made post-Punch, where they could go for a rebound without catching an elbow in the teeth or a knee to the groin every time up. They could go out there and play basketball. I'm sure in today's NHL, there's a lot of guys who get tired of delivering a big (and completely clean) hit and then have to fight. None would ever admit to it, just as no NBA player would admit to despising what the league looked like pre-Punch.

The league will absolutely work to reduce fighting to the absolute minimum levels and the game will be better because of it.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Who cares what other leagues are doing? This is hockey, it's a better game, a game where tradition actually is held high and where codes have to be respected.

Hockey without fighting, would be like a car without an engine it doesn't work and weasels like Cooke will have a field day with all the skilled guys and undersized players, if that's better ...

Yzerman should really care about improving his goaltending and defense, their offense has been great for a long time but in the end, their D has still long ways to go. Also it's not the fault of other team, that some teams simple refuse to sign tough guys or create energy lines, that's stubborness and blaming the guys who get it is really lame. MacIntyre, Orr and even Scott were on waivers Stevo Y didn't take them so he only has himself to blame and not other teams who are signing these guys for a reason.

Rutherford has Westgarth on his roster, one of the better heavyweights in the game and also more than enough problems on his own team, fighting should be the least of his worries.

The TSN panel also had a lenghty discussion on that and as usual the media is playing the NHLs puppet, lobbying for less fighting. It is so funny how often the fact, that players want guys that can protect them and other team mates is going to get overlooked. Rosehill knee'd Frazer (injured) Orr didn't like it and went after Rosehill, the rest of the game Rosehill played less but when he played he toned it down. The so called Smurfs from last season (Canadiens) won more fights than one of the toughest teams in the NHL, that's what great locker room guys like Parros can do for a teams confidence but yet the media is trying to lobby for an even more watered down game.

Hockey is tough, violent and sometimes hard to watch if people can't or aren't willing to deal with that I am sure the soccer-mums and soccer-dads of the world can find some swimming or dancing schools for their kids...soccer on ice =/= hockey!

Edited October 6, 2013 by frankgrimes

[kipwinger 8,522]

Seems to me like the big argument for fighting is that it stops the dirty players from being dirty and taking "runs" at your guys. For the moment I'm willing to overlook the fact that fighting has been around forever, and so have dirty players, and as of yet the former has yet to deter the latter. My biggest concern here is rather that the majority of fights don't have anything to do with dirty plays. If you exclude opening faceoff (Tootoo) fights, and fights that occur because of LEGAL (yet still hard) hits, and fights between enforcers who aren't involved in any dirty play (Orr vs. Parros), and fights that break out because other fights are going on (Miller vs. Bernier), or enforcer rematches, then you're left with very few fights where guys are policing dirty play.

As Red Wings fans, we don't see a lot of fights. We also all remember Lemieux on Draper, or Weber on Zetterberg, and those things leave a bad taste in our mouths. So it's just natural to assume that things like this are the primary cause of fights. But the sad fact is that most fights have nothing to do with policing the game. There's nothing that noble going on most of the time.

Fights happen because they always have, and for the time being they are still looked upon favorably by too many sad, old, apes who can't stop romanticizing the past.

Edited October 7, 2013 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,522]

I prefer to be called a 'knuckle dragger' - thank you very much!

Haha, I think I got it right the first time. Knuckle draggers are the guys you're advocating keeping on hockey teams.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I prefer to be called a 'knuckle dragger' - thank you very much!

Haha, I think I got it right the first time. Knuckle draggers are the guys you're advocating keeping on hockey teams.

Sorry for wanting the young guys and star players to be safe and comfortable outthere. I'd rather be a knuckle dragger, past romanizer than someone who is okay, with watering down the game even more so it becomes soccer or dancing on ice someday.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Sorry for wanting the young guys and star players to be safe and comfortable outthere. I'd rather be a knuckle dragger, past romanizer than someone who is okay, with watering down the game even more so it becomes soccer or dancing on ice someday.

Haha, nice try. Tell me again about how you'd rather be a past "romanizer".

[Mckinley25 677]

I think there' s an awful lot of hyperbole necessary to claim fightless hockey would be dancing on ice.

[The Greek 323]

Sorry for wanting the young guys and star players to be safe and comfortable outthere. I'd rather be a knuckle dragger, past romanizer than someone who is okay, with watering down the game even more so it becomes soccer or dancing on ice someday.

Do you really not see the inconsistency in your logic? You flip flop back and forth between saying that reducing fights would make hockey more dangerous and that it dilute hockey to the point that it is dancing on ice. Your position is so untenable you need to do these mental backflips in order to justify it in your mind. When someone says that removing or reducing fighting would make the game safer you respond that it waters the game down. When it's argued that the integrity of the game will be preserved even without fighting you just come back and say it would be dangerous. The problem is, your scenarios are incompatible. What the "anti-fighting crowd" (soccer moms as you also call them) wants is to reduce unnecessary injuries while preserving the other, necessary physical aspects that are actually part of the game.

Edited October 7, 2013 by The Greek

[Electrophile 3,554]

It is just a matter of time before Bettman and company has ruined the game of hockey completely. They will not stop until hockey looks like figureskating.

Oh, knock it off with the useless hyperbole, would you? If fighting ever disappeared from the game entirely, hockey would not look like figure skating, not even close. The only thing the two activities have in common is they take place on skates. That's it.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Oh, knock it off with the useless hyperbole, would you? If fighting ever disappeared from the game entirely, hockey would not look like figure skating, not even close. The only thing the two activities have in common is they take place on skates. That's it.

Fighting has been practically extinct from the Wings' game for years. I wonder how many people on these forums find watching them similar to figure skating.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Fighting has been practically extinct from the Wings' game for years. I wonder how many people on these forums find watching them similar to figure skating.

Haha, what are you talking about? The Wings team has been populated by such monumental bad*sses as Brad May, Dallas Drake, and Aaron Downey. And as you well know, those men are collectively responsible for keeping Dats, Z, and Lidstrom safe during those years. Nowadays, Tootoo, Ericsson, and Bertuzzi can't hold and candle to those great gladiators of the past.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Ok...The brutally honest neanderthal inside me has gotta reply...

Wings vs Blue Jackets - OR - Habs vs Bruins...Guess what I'll watch?

Wings vs Yotes - OR - Flyers vs Bruins...Take a guess?

Wings vs Panthers - OR - Leafs vs Habs...Seeing what I'm getting at?

I love me some physical tough hockey, and if things get heated, and a few scraps between willing combatants breaks out - even better!

Again - it's why I'll take our 97/98 Cup teams anyday over our 08 team...Maybe we'll see some of the intensity renewed now that we're with our old rivals from the east.

Honestly I agree. Physical hockey is exciting to watch, and even though I support the game-misconduct for a fight, I get a bit more excited when I see a fight happen (although if its a pointless fight right off the face-off with no real hatred as the cause of the fight, I do roll my eyes a bit). But I also think that there is a lot of other exciting stuff in hockey without the fights occurring, and that was the essence of my previous post. Datsyuk's puck mastery, team puck movement, solid body-checks, power-play and penalty kill tactics, acrobatic goaltending, etc etc etc are all reasons why I'm a fan of the game, and taking steps to reduce the frequency of fighting will not affect any of these things. On the contrary, I think it will enhance the above, because the goons with no purpose but to fight will be eliminated from the game, and more time will be spent playing hockey instead of kicking up dirt. I also think the truly passionate fights will still be in the game, because if your blood is that boiled, you're not thinking about a game-misconduct or any sort of consequence of your action. I believe the brawls with the Avs would still have occurred with a game misconduct penalty. Those teams absolutely hated each other.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Echolalia

[kipwinger 8,522]

Ok...The brutally honest neanderthal inside me has gotta reply...

Wings vs Blue Jackets - OR - Habs vs Bruins...Guess what I'll watch?

Wings vs Yotes - OR - Flyers vs Bruins...Take a guess?

Wings vs Panthers - OR - Leafs vs Habs...Seeing what I'm getting at?

I love me some physical tough hockey, and if things get heated, and a few scraps between willing combatants breaks out - even better!

Again - it's why I'll take our 97/98 Cup teams anyday over our 08 team...Maybe we'll see some of the intensity renewed now that we're with our old rivals from the east.

I guess this is where we differ. You'd apparently rather watch two teams, neither of whom you're a fan of, just because they're more likely to punch each other. I'd rather watch the Red Wings win. I'd rather watch Datsyuk dangle, Kronwall hit, and Jimmy stand on his head. I'd rather see the game where our powerplay finally comes alive, or Alfie get his first goal as a Wing, or a four goal night from Mule, or Mrazek come off the bench because of a (non-serious) injury to Jimmy and play out of this world.

There's no need to invent drama in sports, there's always something there. Even against the Panthers. I always thought that's what makes a diehard fan. When you don't miss a game, regardless of the opponent. When you don't leave early, even during a loss. When you always find something to be excited about. When you'd rather watch the Detroit Red Wings play the Phoenix Coyotes than the Bruins and the Habs, not because it'll be the best game ever, but because they're the Detroit F*cking Red Wings and they're the best team ever. And for games like against Carolina. A nobody.

But apparently, when you're being honest, you'd rather see one guy punch another guy.

Edited October 8, 2013 by kipwinger

[Richdg 267]

Sorry Stevie but I disagree. fact is you spent a good portion of your career-nearly all being protected by guys like Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Shanny, etc....... You had 1 career fight, lost badly, and were smart enough to never do it again, which counters your argument. no one has to fight. But most star players are glad there are guys that do.

Some of us remember that wonderful evening back in 1997 when the RW finally became a champion. No it wasn't a 5 goal night from federov or stevie, it wasn't the night we finally lifted the cup over our heads, it was a couple of months earlier than that, at the Joe vs the Avs in March. Every RW fan under 30 knows that night. But most can't tell you who won the game, or what the final score was. But everyone remembers the night of the turtle. Everyone remembers Mccarty redeeming his best friends honor. Everyone remembers Shanny clocking Roy, and then letting Vernon pummel Roy. BTW the final score was 6-5 RW's, with McCarty scoring the game winner-something he wouldn't be allowed to do if Stevie had his way. Same guy scored the Cup winning goal a few months later.

[Opie 308]

When Yzerman was being protected by these players did he know then what he knows now?

Maybe the new revelations about concussions in sport have changed his mind.

Maybe now that he is a dad his mind has changed.

None of you changed your mind after thinking one way for 20+ years, then discovered/learned something you previously were unaware of?

Do you think maybe the research and studies down on CTE and concussions have changed his mind?

For instance players used to smoke butts in the locker room before and after periods, should they still be doing it?

No because they realized the impact it has on their breathing and abilities, so players for the most part stopped smoking, and all of them (due to laws) no longer smoke in the locker room.

Also can we stop using the Blood feud as evidence we need to keep fighting, when was the last time a rivalry was that strong and had that much bad blood.

No fight in the past 15 years has as much reason to be had as those fights.

IF every fight in the NHL was in the same vein as the ones between the Wings and Avs, I for one would have no issue with them.

But most of the fights are over clean hits, scrums at the net, or because a couple of goons are on the ice.

Even when Matt Cooke ended Marc Savard's career, how many of the big bad bruins kicked his arse?

Edited October 8, 2013 by Opie

[kipwinger 8,522]

Sorry Stevie but I disagree. fact is you spent a good portion of your career-nearly all being protected by guys like Probert, Kocur, McCarty, Shanny, etc....... You had 1 career fight, lost badly, and were smart enough to never do it again, which counters your argument. no one has to fight. But most star players are glad there are guys that do.

Some of us remember that wonderful evening back in 1997 when the RW finally became a champion. No it wasn't a 5 goal night from federov or stevie, it wasn't the night we finally lifted the cup over our heads, it was a couple of months earlier than that, at the Joe vs the Avs in March. Every RW fan under 30 knows that night. But most can't tell you who won the game, or what the final score was. But everyone remembers the night of the turtle. Everyone remembers Mccarty redeeming his best friends honor. Everyone remembers Shanny clocking Roy, and then letting Vernon pummel Roy. BTW the final score was 6-5 RW's, with McCarty scoring the game winner-something he wouldn't be allowed to do if Stevie had his way. Same guy scored the Cup winning goal a few months later.

If nobody were allowed to change their minds I'd still think Sesame Street was the greatest show in the world, and I'd still want to be a transformer when I grew up.

[Richdg 267]

BTW someone brought up bare knuckle boxing. fact: bare knuckle boxing is much safer for the brain than boxing with gloves. You can hit much harder with gloves on than without. BK boxing was very bloody-turned off fans. It was also much slower because the number 1 injury was broken hands. Without gloves there were cuts and blood. Now there is concussions. same is true in rugby vs football. rugby has 1/10th the number of concussions that football has. Without head protection, players stop using their heads as weapons. if the goal in all of this is to make the games safer, call/enforce the rules: charging and boarding in hockey and spearing in football. helmets do not prevent concussions, nor are those designed to. those are designed to prevent skull fractures. Concussions are caused by the brain moving inside of the skull and crashing into the skull wall. There is no piece of equipment that can be made that will prevent that from happening.

[Dabura 12,207]

This just in: Steve Yzerman receives several game misconduct penalties for fighting against fighting.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Stevie Y can still not sign enforcers and build a soft boring to watch team, so can Rutherford and the other soccer on ice supporting coaches GMs but who the heck they think they are in order to decide how others should be building their teams? I hate to admit it but the Leafs with guys like Orr Mclaren and Frazer are a damn exciting team to watch, even if they lose. Someone already mentioned it, I'd rather watch Leafs versus Habs compared to Detroitredwings against some boring to watch team such as the Rutherford built Hurricanes.

When this team was the class of the NHL guys like Koccur, Downie and McCarty also were part of the great hype about this team and now? Skill is diminishing, hits are barely seen and young players have to go through hell in order to get the jobs from long over the hill veterans and yet the anti fighting crowd is still questioning why the interest of fans is going down and the Joe isn't as packed as it used to be?

A guy like Downie would have smashed Weber's ugly face through the glass after the Zetterberg incident instead of just getting fined 2,5...

Edited October 8, 2013 by frankgrimes

[kipwinger 8,522]

Stevie Y can still not sign enforcers and build a soft boring to watch team, so can Rutherford and the other soccer on ice supporting coaches GMs but who the heck they think they are in order to decide how others should be building their teams? I hate to admit it but the Leafs with guys like Orr Mclaren and Frazer are a damn exciting team to watch, even if they lose. Someone already mentioned it, I'd rather watch Leafs versus Habs compared to Detroitredwings against some boring to watch team such as the Rutherford built Hurricanes. When this team was the class of the NHL guys like Koccur, Downie and McCarty also were part of the great hype about this team and now? Skill is diminishing, hits are barely seen and young players have to go through hell in order to get the jobs from long over the hill veterans and yet the anti fighting crowd is still questioning why the interest of fans is going down and the Joe isn't as packed as it used to be? A guy like Downie would have smashed Weber's ugly face through the glass after the Zetterberg incident instead of just getting fined 2,5...

Haha, cute. Except none of the "anti-fighting" crowd is questioning anything like this, mostly because it's not true. It's just another thing you've completely made up to legitimize your personal preference. Here in the real world, dominated by facts, league revenue and television viewership is still steadily increasing, despite the diminishing number of fights.

Edit: Also, Detroit was third in the league in attendance last season. We actually had higher average attendance last year than we did during the 97-98 Cup season. So it really is just as full as it ever was. Here's proof...

http://www.hockeyattendance.com/league/nhl/2012/?sort=avg_att

Maybe don't make stuff up if you want to have intelligent discussions here on the discussion forum. Just a thought.

Edited October 8, 2013 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,522]

Been a die-hard Detroit Red Wings fan since 1984.

I've always enjoyed physical/tough hockey.

Just because I choose to watch a different game a few times a year when the Wings are on at the same time doesn't take away the fact that the Wings have been, and always be my #1 team.

Once again boys, and girls...Physical/tough hockey against a long time rival is much more fun to watch than hockey with little to no contact, and against an opponent that has little to no history of competing against one another.

Am I one of the few here that yearn for a Red Wings vs "opponent's name here" rivalry that harkens back to what we had against the Avs?

Can't find the attendance numbers from the 97/98 Cup seasons on the link you provided...

You making stuff up

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2013

This link will give you the attendance for any year you want, including the two I mentioned.