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Steve Yzerman wants Game Misconduct penalties for fighting


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#21 kipwinger

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

Both Yzerman and Bowman are in favor of tossing guys for fighting?  That really has to create quite a conundrum for much of the LGW community eh?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#22 The Greek

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:11 PM

 
That's because off balance punches are no where near as dangerous and forceful as full body checks to the head. The amount of force between each is vast. I'd rather take 10 punches than 1 body check to the head.
 
More people get injured from blocking shots than fighting. Ban the puck!


Are these facts substantiated? Even if they are, your reasoning is still fallacious. The fact that essential parts of the game are more dangerous than fighting is not a defense of fighting. I can come back and say hockey is dangerous enough already. It seems unreasonable to subject the players to an additional, unnecessary risk just because we are entertained by it.

#23 uk_redwing

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:15 PM

Are these facts substantiated?

 

From experience.


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#24 The Greek

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:20 PM

 
From experience.

Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I have experience too. I've been in numerous fights, on and off the ice. There were times my head hurt for days due to one solid punch to the head. Some young kid who lacks a proper education should not have to needlessly put his well being on the line just because he feels compelled to impress his coach. Good job leaving out the rest of my post, straw man.

Edited by The Greek, 02 October 2013 - 05:23 PM.


#25 Hatcher#2

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:23 PM

so saying that guys "knew the risks" isn't at all accurate.


So your saying that these guys didn't know the risks of getting punched in the head multiple times??? They know the risks.
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#26 uk_redwing

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

Sorry, that's not good enough for me.

 

Well common sense says the weight of body checks and speeds versus the lower mass and stationary targets of fist fighting by the laws of physics body checks will have more energy.


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#27 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

Hockey is a dangerous, violent and sometimes hard to watch - i.e. Parros accident - but if people can't deal with that go watch soccer, baseball or basketball. Nobody is forcing these guys to fight they both are agreeing and they know exactly the risks and benefits of it.

 

The Captain will always be THE captain but in this case I have to respectfully disagree with him. I'd stop watching the NHL if they ever ban fighting and destroy the game even more than it already is. Maybe he has forgotten how players like McCarty, Downey and Koccur prevented other guys from taking runs at him and step over the line...


Edited by frankgrimes, 02 October 2013 - 05:35 PM.

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#28 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:37 PM

 

From experience.

 

Even if what you're saying is true, the reasoning is flawed.  Fighting is essentially something that happens outside of normal gameplay.  So to reduce the risks to players, it's a reasonable argument that removing something like fighting can increase player safety while having little impact on normal gameplay.

 

To be clear, I've watched hockey for 30 years.  To me fighting is part of the game.  But honestly with what we know now and probably me getting older, I'm not sure where I stand on it all.  So I'm not saying they necessarily should eliminate it.  But I absolutely see the valid reasoning behind it.

 

So your saying that these guys didn't know the risks of getting punched in the head multiple times??? They know the risks.

 

Frankly a lot of them probably don't.  Some guys do sure, but the research is still evolving.  And some 22 year old straight out of a minor league may not have paid a whole lot of attention to the cutting edge research on concussion and CTE.  And even if they had, many may be willing to risk their brains anyway for the potential of millions of dollars. 

 

Just because someone may think they know the risks and be willing to risk permanent brain damage for money doesn't make it the right thing for the league to do, ethically or financially.  There's already been the class action lawsuit in the NFL.  It probably won't be the last one for that league and seems only a matter of time before it happens in the NHL.



#29 Playmaker

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:38 PM

So your saying that these guys didn't know the risks of getting punched in the head multiple times??? They know the risks.

How can you say guys know the risks when you have boneheads like Cherry saying, hey look at me, I got in fights, and I'm fine.  Did they think they'd get a broken nose, or a black eye or a headache for a day or two?  Sure, I'm sure they knew that.  Did they know they could get severe depression or dementia or have debilitating headaches for the rest of their lives amongst other things?  I don't think so.



#30 matthewdanna

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

I agree that there are times to fight (someone throws a cheap elbow in a check, some drives hard into a goal, or some other unsportsmanlike act that requires retaliation) but I agree with #19 there should be a stiffer penalty than just a 5 min major.  I don't know if it's a game misconduct automatically, but the NHL should definitely track those players that are prone to fighting and institute a progressive suspension criteria. Get the goons out of the game, eliminate stupid injuries, protect the stars, make the game better.


How can you say guys know the risks when you have boneheads like Cherry saying, hey look at me, I got in fights, and I'm fine.  Did they think they'd get a broken nose, or a black eye or a headache for a day or two?  Sure, I'm sure they knew that.  Did they know they could get severe depression or dementia or have debilitating headaches for the rest of their lives amongst other things?  I don't think so.

 

I love this... Cherry is a fricken idiot.



#31 Seraph

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:49 PM

Sounds like Stevie forgot about all the space he had out there because of the beloved bruise brothers and #25.

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#32 Hatcher#2

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:51 PM

How can you say guys know the risks when you have boneheads like Cherry saying, hey look at me, I got in fights, and I'm fine.  Did they think they'd get a broken nose, or a black eye or a headache for a day or two?  Sure, I'm sure they knew that.  Did they know they could get severe depression or dementia or have debilitating headaches for the rest of their lives amongst other things?  I don't think so.


Im sorry but it doesn't take a genius to know that the head is one of the most important/fragile parts of the anatomy and therefore you should try to avoid putting yourself in situations where you could get hurt. If they don't know this then that proves to me that its not the fighting that causes the issues but that they already have issues before embarking on their career.
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#33 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:55 PM

I agree that there are times to fight (someone throws a cheap elbow in a check, some drives hard into a goal, or some other unsportsmanlike act that requires retaliation) but I agree with #19 there should be a stiffer penalty than just a 5 min major.  I don't know if it's a game misconduct automatically, but the NHL should definitely track those players that are prone to fighting and institute a progressive suspension criteria. Get the goons out of the game, eliminate stupid injuries, protect the stars, make the game better.


 

I love this... Cherry is a fricken idiot.

 

Cherry has seen and probably played more hockey than 90 % of this planet he knows what he is talking about and I am glad there are people like him, who don't tolerate the watering down of this great game.


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#34 The Greek

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:01 PM

 
Cherry has seen and probably played more hockey than 90 % of this planet he knows what he is talking about and I am glad there are people like him, who don't tolerate the watering down of this great game.

It's not watering down the game though. Hitting is part of the game, fighting is not. It is ancillary and unnecessary. The GAME stops when two guys start fighting. Haroldnepsts said it, removing fighting would not have major effect on the game itself.

Edited by The Greek, 02 October 2013 - 06:02 PM.


#35 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:06 PM

It's not watering down the game though. Hitting is part of the game, fighting is not. It is ancillary and unnecessary. The GAME stops when two guys start fighting. Haroldnepsts said it, removing fighting would not have major effect on the game itself.

 

It wouldn't? Guys like Kaleta (nice to meet him tonight without an enforcer...), Cooke, Torres and other over the line rats would have a field day with younger and star players because they won't have to answer to qualityguys like Orr, McGrattan, MacIntyre, McLaren, Engelland or Thornton or Scott.

 

Like I said if people hate fighting that much, there are other sports to watch..Yes hitting is part of the game and that's why this stupid front-office and the department for players safety has been to remove it from the game, with ridiculous rules.


Edited by frankgrimes, 02 October 2013 - 06:07 PM.

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#36 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:07 PM

 

Cherry has seen and probably played more hockey than 90 % of this planet he knows what he is talking about and I am glad there are people like him, who don't tolerate the watering down of this great game.

 

And unlike Cherry, Yzerman actually played in the NHL.  For 22 seasons and over 1,500 games.

 

I can understand you personally still wanting fighting to be a part of the game but if we're talking about the credibility of informed opinions, I'm going with Stevie Y over Grapes every time.



#37 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:11 PM

 

And unlike Cherry, Yzerman actually played in the NHL.  For 22 seasons and over 1,500 games.

 

I can understand you personally still wanting fighting to be a part of the game but if we're talking about the credibility of informed opinions, I'm going with Stevie Y over Grapes every time.

 

Sure Stevo Y has had the more succesful carreer no doubt, but I mean in terms of experience Cherry has seen it all.


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#38 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:13 PM

 

It wouldn't? Guys like Kaleta (nice to meet him tonight without an enforcer...), Cooke, Torres and other over the line rats would have a field day with younger and star players because they won't have to answer to qualityguys like Orr, McGrattan, MacIntyre, McLaren, Engelland or Thornton or Scott.

 

Like I said if people hate fighting that much, there are other sports to watch..Yes hitting is part of the game and that's why this stupid front-office and the department for players safety has been to remove it from the game, with ridiculous rules.

Like I said, I'm not sure exactly how I feel about fighting being taken out of the game, but the more it gets talked about the more I see there's not a lot of strong arguments to support it.  And I'm kind of hoping someone will make one.  Because overall I like fighting in hockey.  But think of the guys you just mentioned.

 

Cooke and Torres have a long history of cheapshotting players.  All while  fighting is still a part of the game.  It's apparently not an effective enough deterrent for either one of them to stop cheapshotting.  What finally got to Cooke's attention was a 17 game suspension from the league.  The league's suspensions clearly haven't gotten Torres' attention yet, but neither has any enforcer.



#39 Franzine

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:14 PM

Steve Yzerman is a real man.



#40 mackel

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:18 PM

I think the problem is with "fighters" not fighting. I have no problem at all with a guy like McCarty, Shannahan, Drake, Big E, etc having the odd tustle when the chips are down.

I do have a problem with guys like Parros, Orr and the like who have no business being in the NHL. These guys are in the league exclusively to fight, any points they earn or plays they make are minor miracles.

I like tough hockey players who can fight when called for, I don't think a player who can only fight at the NHL level has a place in the league.





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