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Steve Yzerman wants Game Misconduct penalties for fighting


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#101 ogreslayer

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:28 AM

As this discussion goes on I feel like Yzerman's comments are getting exaggerated, in this thread a little but even in the media.  Unless he's made stronger comments I missed?

 

Because the initial one he's saying something along the lines of what Babcock said.  Pointing out the absurd situation the NHL is in right now.  Punishing players severely for hits to the head but then allowing them to punch each other in the head.  Regardless of if you want fighting in the game or not, I think people can realize that's an odd position for a league to defend. 

 

Khan even goes so far as to say Yzerman wants fighting eliminated from the game completely.  Has he actually said anything like that?

 

I wouldn't necessarily say his comments are being exaggerated, it feels more like people are selectively ignoring this part of his comments.

 

 


"We're stuck in the middle and need to decide what kind of sport do we want to be. Either anything goes and we accept the consequences, or take the next step and eliminate fighting."

 

It feels more to me like he's recommending the NHL follow the teaching of modern day philosopher Mike Ehrmantraut... "No half measures".


Edited by ogreslayer, 04 October 2013 - 09:29 AM.


#102 frankgrimes

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 11:33 AM

As far as I am concerned the anti-fighting crowd and Bettman can go  watch soccer, baseball or basketball. Players are the ones who should know better than everyone else and they've already voted FOR fighting so it's here to say and I am very glad it is. Also, one has to keep in mind how the DetroitRedWings were a much bigger deal a few years ago when we've had guys like Downey, McCarty and Koccur. Yes, the DetroitRedWings were more skilled too but those guys are also great locker-room guys and people other players are feeling better with.

 

If everything is in the name of player safety and enforcers are providing that everything should be fine.

 

This stupid league led by an undersized new york based *******, who has no clue about the game is more and more going the way of becoming soccer on ice and yet there are people who are ok with that. The nonsense will only stop once this game has been destroyed once and for all.

 

I'd rather see no NHL, than an even more dumbed down product (aren't failed franchises, no hipchecks and less hitting enough of a dumbed down)? For the 8 ,3 million a year waste of human being not it seems...when will the owners wake up and kick this guy out of the league.

 

I am glad, there are teams like the Leafs who are tough, skilled and not getting pushed around easily. I love our rivalry with them but there fourth line should be something other teams should want to recreate too. With guys like Devane, Broll  in the minors they can soon ice even a third line from hell...and that's impressive.

 

Also the stupid Blackhawks are a freaking boring team to watch, rather see the Blues or Kings style.


Edited by frankgrimes, 04 October 2013 - 11:34 AM.

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#103 Opie

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:06 PM

No hip checks???

Really is that how you see things?

 

A cup winning team is boring?????

 

You are an all or nothing type of guy/gal I am assuming.

 

And you realize Yzerman is not asking for fighting to be abolished? He is asking for stiffer penalties.

 

But hey who cares if getting punched in the head led to players killing themselves as long as you are entertained.

And if Athletes are so willing to accept the dangers why are there class action suits in the NFL and NCAA because the leagues did not do enough to prevent long term damage from concussions?


Edited by Opie, 04 October 2013 - 12:07 PM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#104 F.Michael

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:23 PM

No hip checks???

Really is that how you see things?

 

A cup winning team is boring?????

 

You are an all or nothing type of guy/gal I am assuming.

 

And you realize Yzerman is not asking for fighting to be abolished? He is asking for stiffer penalties.

 

But hey who cares if getting punched in the head led to players killing themselves as long as you are entertained.

And if Athletes are so willing to accept the dangers why are there class action suits in the NFL and NCAA because the leagues did not do enough to prevent long term damage from concussions?

Let me take a crack at this...

 

Hipchecks - very few players today seem capable, or willing to attempt one (hence why we do not see them as often like we did back in the 80's), and the potential for a knee injury, and getting called for a low hit by the refs are also factors a player must consider...When it's done right - it's a thing of beauty - however we don't see them as often.

 

NJ Devils circa 1995 - excitement at it's finest - am I right?  ;)

 

How many players in the past 20 plus years took their own life?..In recent years - I know Probert died of a heart attack, Boogaard of a drug overdose (accidental if I remember correctly)...Only  Belak,  and  Rypien I believe were deemed suicides, and both of those individuals had suffered from depression.

 

Not sure how the NCAA, and pro leagues could've prevented concussions when in just the past decade we're finding out more, and more of their long term effects.



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#105 frankgrimes

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:34 AM

No hip checks???

Really is that how you see things?

 

A cup winning team is boring?????

 

You are an all or nothing type of guy/gal I am assuming.

 

And you realize Yzerman is not asking for fighting to be abolished? He is asking for stiffer penalties.

 

But hey who cares if getting punched in the head led to players killing themselves as long as you are entertained.

And if Athletes are so willing to accept the dangers why are there class action suits in the NFL and NCAA because the leagues did not do enough to prevent long term damage from concussions?

 

Yes that is how I see things. Hip checks are a great thing - like pointed out by F Michael - if they are done right.  Yzerman is asking for something that could be the first step and a stupid step!

 

Maybe just maybe if these guys would also be appreciated by the stupid media and some of the anti-fighting crowd their lifes would be easier? These guys are having the toughest job in the NHL and other than some fans, teammates and coaches they are only reading/hearing how useless they are and that they don't belong to the NHL how about that crap/bs? What happened to Rypien and Belak is horrible but at the end  It's not about me or anyone else being entertained, it's about players feeling safe with these guys on the ice, it's about on ice policy and clean up your game or someone is going to come to you. You think a guy like Lucic is trying to run Miller again with John Scott on the Sabres roster? I highly doubt it.

 

If Lucic runs Howard tonight he has - and will answer - to Tootoo big deal Tootoo has no chance against him, would we have a guy like say Colton Orr he wouldn't even be thinking about that possibility.

 

Personally couldn't care less what other leagues are doing, this is hockey a different sport the NFL could fold and I wouldn't care so let them do whatever.


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#106 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:21 AM

This is all I have to say about the subject.  I love the fights, not the staged kind.  And, I think Yzerman is wrong and should be more concerned about his team than fighting. 



#107 beachwing

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

If someone wants to take a run and or cheap shot Howie, Z or Dats...they will do so even if we had Probert, Kocur, on the ice with them.

I am all for retribution!!! And dbags that do dbag s*** should be waxed for 25 games!!!

Fighting does not need to be banished...cheapshots and instigating after clean hits is what needs to stop.

What I hate is the cheap shot bs the last 5 mins of a game....yanno, "sending the message" that even though you whipped our ass tonight, tmmrrw wont be as easy beacuse im gonna fight you tonight after you whipped our ass.

The league could stop all the cheapshots with suspensions and they should.

The league could also stop those talentless goons that choose to try and injure non goons with lengthy suspensions.

I dont recall Mcsorely, Domi, running Stevey.....How many times did Probie pummell someone becuase they ran Stevey....you can count it one hand!

If Lucic or Chara jump Kronwall after he levels Bergeron with a perfectly clean hit...they should get 10 games!

Fighting has a place and if two dudes want to drop and go in nonstaged manor, let em go.

I dont want the game pussified BUT all of hockeys unwritten rules and 'code' are almost as laugjable as baseball.

#108 The Greek

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:11 PM

Maybe just maybe if these guys would also be appreciated by the stupid media and some of the anti-fighting crowd their lifes would be easier? These guys are having the toughest job in the NHL and other than some fans, teammates and coaches they are only reading/hearing how useless they are and that they don't belong to the NHL how about that crap/bs? What happened to Rypien and Belak is horrible but at the end  It's not about me or anyone else being entertained, it's about players feeling safe with these guys on the ice, it's about on ice policy and clean up your game or someone is .


Is this a joke? Your pro-fighting stance is due to your concern for the players' safety? I'm sorry, but that does not make any sense. Look at the amount brain damage these guys sustain. For enforcers, drug abuse and alcoholism are common ways to cope with the the crippling depression that often accompanies such brain damage. Read that Boogard article. It features several players who talk about the long term effects, such as the onset of dementia. You cannot say that your position is in the interest of player safety. Despite your denial, your position is based on you being entertained. You even say so in your other posts where you say how you love hockey much more than sports that are less tolerant of fighting. If you really are motivated by player safety, then I encourage you to do some research on the effects of sustaining repeated punches to the head, or you just read some of the stories of former enforcers who have to deal with a severely dimished quality of life due to their lifestyle choice. You will see that hockey does nothing to make the make the game any safer.

Edited by The Greek, 05 October 2013 - 12:12 PM.


#109 FlashyG

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:17 PM

As far as I am concerned the anti-fighting crowd and Bettman can go  watch soccer, baseball or basketball. Players are the ones who should know better than everyone else and they've already voted FOR fighting so it's here to say and I am very glad it is. Also, one has to keep in mind how the DetroitRedWings were a much bigger deal a few years ago when we've had guys like Downey, McCarty and Koccur. Yes, the DetroitRedWings were more skilled too but those guys are also great locker-room guys and people other players are feeling better with.

 

If everything is in the name of player safety and enforcers are providing that everything should be fine.

 

This stupid league led by an undersized new york based *******, who has no clue about the game is more and more going the way of becoming soccer on ice and yet there are people who are ok with that. The nonsense will only stop once this game has been destroyed once and for all.

 

I'd rather see no NHL, than an even more dumbed down product (aren't failed franchises, no hipchecks and less hitting enough of a dumbed down)? For the 8 ,3 million a year waste of human being not it seems...when will the owners wake up and kick this guy out of the league.

 

I am glad, there are teams like the Leafs who are tough, skilled and not getting pushed around easily. I love our rivalry with them but there fourth line should be something other teams should want to recreate too. With guys like Devane, Broll  in the minors they can soon ice even a third line from hell...and that's impressive.

 

Also the stupid Blackhawks are a freaking boring team to watch, rather see the Blues or Kings style.

 

Saying those of us who have no problem with game misconducts for fighting should go watch soccer is no different than us saying you should go watch MMA or boxing if you want to watch fights.

 

What you see as destroying the game will in all likelihood increase the number of viewers and the number of kids playing hockey. Very few fans will actually stop watching hockey when fighting is removed from the game, many say they will, but many also said they'd stop watching over the lockouts yet almost all of them came back.

 

What you see as "dumbing down" the sport is actually putting the focus back on hockey and drastically improving the product on the ice. If we can get rid of the Colton Orr's of the league and replace them with guys who actually play hockey then the product has been improved considerably.

 

If the players got to decide everything about how the game worked, they'd still be playing helmetless...sometimes decisions have to be made on their behalf.

 

Its not a matter of if fighting will be removed from the game its a matter of when. If you really like fighting more than the game itself then you better get your fill in the next few years because like it or not its going to be gone sooner rather than later.



#110 freshy

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

Why exactly are those that don't care for fighting in hockey *******? Many of us have played hockey our entire lives. Steve Yzerman certainly isn't a *****. The game is evolving and fighting isn't needed. Hard checking, crisp passing, Datsyukian deking, and multiple other SKILLS are part of the game. There is no "fighting" event in the skills competition. Change is hard. I grew up watching fighting in hockey. I like watching a good fight since it get's the adrenaline going. I think hockey needs to evolve though. I like watching the Wings play & much prefer their style of hockey compared to a team like Anaheim. Those talking about Stevie needing to just worry about running his team don't seem to understand that is what he is trying to do. You think he wants to have to pay for a scrub fighter? The cap is going to force these changes inevitably. I don't think the NHLPA should vote. Their is too much old school "non-fighters are *******, it's tradition, etc.." mentality in the hockey world. If you want to showcase skill, you focus on eliminating scrubs. Do what is right for the sport & the players health.


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#111 F.Michael

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:49 PM

Here's an interesting take by former NHL'er Chris 'Knuckles' Nilan...

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=E53SiEJRWIM

 

Points out how his depression didn't come from the game, or the fighting - it came  from substance abuse.


This is all I have to say about the subject.  I love the fights, not the staged kind.  And, I think Yzerman is wrong and should be more concerned about his team than fighting. 

Agreed.

 

I'm really indifferent to the 'staged' fights, but IMHO there's nothing better than those 'heat of the moment' scraps between players who've been battling hard the entire night, and wish to 'vent'.



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#112 frankgrimes

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:18 PM

Here's an interesting take by former NHL'er Chris 'Knuckles' Nilan...
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=E53SiEJRWIM
 
Points out how his depression didn't come from the game, or the fighting - it came  from substance abuse.

Agreed.
 
I'm really indifferent to the 'staged' fights, but IMHO there's nothing better than those 'heat of the moment' scraps between players who've been battling hard the entire night, and wish to 'vent'.

It's really easy despite what the soccer mums dads of the world think, fighting is here to stay. It has been part of hockey for a long time and always willwill be. Using horrible accidents or suicides as proof that fighting needs to be gone is just classless.

thanks for posting that
one would think the game is already dumbed down enough, guess some people are only happy f hockey turns into soccer on ice...

also don't give me that players that players safety be if the league would care about the players, there is no way they would reduce goalie pads...

Edited by frankgrimes, 05 October 2013 - 07:19 PM.

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#113 Playmaker

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

Bob Probert and Derek Boogaard were both found to have CTE after their deaths.  Depression is a major symptom.  Unfortunately, it can only be diagnosed after death.  The bottom line is money and liability.  Fighting has already been reduced and the trend will continue.



#114 Nev

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:57 AM

Here's an interesting take by former NHL'er Chris 'Knuckles' Nilan...

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=E53SiEJRWIM

 

Points out how his depression didn't come from the game, or the fighting - it came  from substance abuse.


 

 

Oh, it was the drugs and the booze that made him depressed, that's OK then *facepalm*

 

So the next obvious question is - why was he on the drugs and the booze?  In fact why do so many enforcers have problems with drugs and alcohol?  Why is drug addiction and alcoholism so much more prevalent amongst them than regular NHL players?


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#115 Hey man nice shot!

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:57 AM

getting kicked after a fight maybe, getting rid of fighting all together is a bit extreme.



#116 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:25 AM

I guess I'm not that opposed to what Stevie said. Game misconduct for fighting? It could be worse yet getting rid of fighting all together would be something else. 



#117 Dabura

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:48 PM

I think I'm with the two above me. You wanna fight, fine, but you're out of the game then. Keeps fighting in the game, but - I have to think - would cut down on all the ridiculous staged fights and the "retribution" for good, clean hits. And pretty much everything the Anaheim Ducks do in the way of "fighting" (see: "sending a message" with forty seconds left. blargh.)


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#118 Dabura

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

Actually, a game misconduct likely wouldn't cut down on that last thing I mentioned - the last-minute antics. In fact, I could see it leading to more of those situations. I guess the fix would be a carry-over system, i.e. if you fight past a certain point in the game, you get tossed from the current game and you sit out the next one.


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#119 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:42 PM

Actually, a game misconduct likely wouldn't cut down on that last thing I mentioned - the last-minute antics. In fact, I could see it leading to more of those situations. I guess the fix would be a carry-over system, i.e. if you fight past a certain point in the game, you get tossed from the current game and you sit out the next one.

 

I agree with both your posts above. Thinking about it more a game misconduct probably wouldn't lower the overall fighting in the league as you mentioned. I could guess that a lot of players would just wait till the end of the game to fight. But yeah something like if a player fights at the end of game. Make it a misconduct for the next game as well.

 

I could guess that at some point they will be keeping track on whos fighting (not that they don't) maybe and say if you get into 5 fights it's a suspension or something. The game is evolving and fighting has been reduced already. I agree I see this trend continuing in the future. And this opinion is coming from a poster who played junior hockey and I got into plenty of fights taking my helmet off. 



#120 FlashyG

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

It's really easy despite what the soccer mums dads of the world think, fighting is here to stay. It has been part of hockey for a long time and always willwill be. Using horrible accidents or suicides as proof that fighting needs to be gone is just classless.

thanks for posting that
one would think the game is already dumbed down enough, guess some people are only happy f hockey turns into soccer on ice...

also don't give me that players that players safety be if the league would care about the players, there is no way they would reduce goalie pads...

 

FIghting has never been part of hockey. Fighting happens in hockey (and will continue too long after its banned) but its not part of the game.

 

The OHL has already started working towards punishing fights with game misconducts and the rest of the CHL won't be far behind. 

 

The substance abuse in most of the NHL's suicides has been prescription pain killers taken due to the strain on the body fighting every night causes. 

 

I took this from another board but basketball went through the same phase in the 70's.

 

 

 

In basketball, mugging and fighting were allowed for years, going way back. Teams had designated players at the end of the bench whose entire role was to go out there and rough up the opposing stars and "send a message" or "fire up the team". Players supported this, presuming that if this style of play were outlawed, they'd be targeted for cheap play without being able to do anything about it.

Then December 9, 1977 came along. The season had begun with #1 overall pick Kent Benson elbowing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the chest while fighting for a rebound, and Abdul-Jabbar punched Benson from behind. Benson suffered a broken jaw, Abdul-Jabbar a broken hand. This put the NBA on notice; they didn't need the top overall pick and a major star missing time due to this. Neither player was suspended for their actions, though; this type of thing was common in a league where brawls (including ones that emptied the bench) were frequent.

On December 9, 1977, Houston and the Lakers (who now had Abdul-Jabbar back in the lineup) were playing. Houston's Kevin Kunnert and Los Angeles' Abdul-Jabbar fought for a rebound, then started wrestling. The Lakers' Kermit Washington stepped in for Abdul-Jabbar, and Kunnert threw a punch at Washington. Abdul-Jabbar grabbed Kunnert's arms, and Washington hit Kunnert in the side of the head, bringing Kunnert to one knee. Houston's Rudy Tomjanovich came running over, and Washington turned and punched him with a blow hard enough to displace his face from his skull and rupture his brain capsule. It could have been a fatal injury, and somehow was not. The incident was broadcast coast-to-coast for several days, damaging the NBA's reputation at a time when they were still struggling to find stability.

The NBA's chief legal counsel was David Stern, who recommended that drastic measures be taken immediately, saying in retrospect, "One thing was obvious, you couldn't allow men that big and that strong to go around throwing punches at each other." The NBA's average size wasn't dramatically larger at that time than previously. The average player in 1955 was 6'5" and 206 pounds; in 1977 it was 6'6 1/2" and 207 pounds. What had changed were diet and especially conditioning.

Without question, an NHL player today on average is stronger than when fighting was both more common and more "part of the game". This post contains a link to the Maple Leafs' fitness standards in 1962, which counts as a light warmup today before an actual workout. Look at Raitis Ivanans, who could barely play the game and yet is built as solidly (or more so) as Bobby Hull. An NHL player in 1959 was 5'11" and 178 pounds; today it's 6'1" and 204 pounds. That's not 26 pounds of goo either.

The reality is that there are plenty of NHL players who possess the ability to incapacitate or kill an opponent with a punch, and it's only a matter of time before a worldwide audience gets to watch it being replayed ad nauseum. What will the fallout from that be?

Years back, I tried to counsel a friend who was in an abusive relationship. Trying to convince her that bruises weren't a sign of affection and that a black eye wasn't a love tap was an exercise in futility.

I do know that most NBA players welcomed the changes that the league made post-Punch, where they could go for a rebound without catching an elbow in the teeth or a knee to the groin every time up. They could go out there and play basketball. I'm sure in today's NHL, there's a lot of guys who get tired of delivering a big (and completely clean) hit and then have to fight. None would ever admit to it, just as no NBA player would admit to despising what the league looked like pre-Punch.

 

The league will absolutely work to reduce fighting to the absolute minimum levels and the game will be better because of it.







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