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10/5 GDT : Red Wings 1 at Bruins 4



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#341 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:47 AM

I missed the game but Sammy was already a healthy scratch?

Terrific. This signing is turning out to be just as awful as I thought. Sammy on LTIR last season may turn out to be the most help he gave the Wings.

It doesn't bode well when you have a player who is 6'2" 218lbs, one of the few right handed shots on the team, can play on the PP, and you still scratch him against Boston.

#342 Dabura

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

I missed the game but Sammy was already a healthy scratch?

Terrific. This signing is turning out to be just as awful as I thought. Sammy on LTIR last season may turn out to be the most help he gave the Wings.

It doesn't bode well when you scratch a player who is 6'2" 218lbs, one of the few right handed shots on the team, can play on the PP, and you still scratch him against Boston.

 

I get the feeling this was a "one-time experiment." Y'know, like, "Hey. Tatar. Score five goals in this game or it'll be the last game you play as a Wing." Because, come on, Babs and/or Holland love(s) Sammy to pieces. I mean, for all we know, Babs was just resting Sammy up, like Selanne.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#343 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:26 AM

Yeah Weiss is a mediocre top six. Do you think he is above average "top 6?" Is he better than Richards and Jeff Carter from LA? How about Penguins number two center in Malkin, or Ryan Kesler, or Rangers top two centers in Stepan and Richards. Better than Chicago's second line players of Hossa and Sharp? What about the Sharks, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Burns, Havlat, Marleau? Where does Weiss rank on that list...

I'm not pulling my opinion from three games. You forget he scored 4 points in 17 games last season for a +/- of -13? Weiss hasn't looked anything close to a top six forward during all of preseason up to now. I have watched him every second and he hasn't even shown a glimpse of talent. He didn't make a single useful move the entire game he scored the OT winner, he happened to have a puck pop out right on his stick on a open net.


I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong here. He has crashed the net several times, held on to the puck in order to open up space, it isn't his fault if his linemates haven't yet been able to get into good scoring position to catch rebounds or empty net shots, alfie almost got one, but to say he has done nothing and hasn't showed he is capable of doing anything is wrong. Sure he hasn't been an all star but he has had some pretty damn good shifts, unfortunately it's a team game and you need someone there to bury your missed chances, he left some juicy rebounds and made some nice passes that should have been buried

#344 wingslionstigers

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:40 AM

That's weird Euro twins. I watched every single second of all preseason and season but I somehow missed all that. What's especially ironic about it is that when I watch games I'm focused and don't have people around who would distract me. But what I saw was an in capability to handle the puck and slow down the play. I forgot everyone on this forum only judges stats and he happened to get a goal. This guy will be whopping boy of the season o this board. He won't produce more than filpulla. It's not his fault his linemates haven't produced for him? Alfredsson has looked great and the one who's victim of bad line mates. Franzen looks like he always does that's not going to change. He's going to score when he gets a chance, be a solid puck mover, but coast when he doesn't have the puck.

#345 wingslionstigers

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:53 AM

Lets not forget he had 4 points last season either. I know you want to be optimistic but let's be realistic. 45 points at most if he doesn't play with Pav or Z. 50-55 absolute most if he does majority of season. No 60+ point potential that filpulla had. Let alone if filpulla had Alfie and Franzen on his line with Pav and Z together drawing big attention.
Filpulla could carry the play, enter the offensive zone clean, cycle the puck, create space for his line mates. What a great season he could have had here with the same circumstances we have now. Man especially with Alfie's shot.

#346 mjtm77

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:59 AM

Lets not forget he had 4 points last season either. I know you want to be optimistic but let's be realistic. 45 points at most if he doesn't play with Pav or Z. 50-55 absolute most if he does majority of season. No 60+ point potential that filpulla had. Let alone if filpulla had Alfie and Franzen on his line with Pav and Z together drawing big attention.
Filpulla could carry the play, enter the offensive zone clean, cycle the puck, create space for his line mates. What a great season he could have had here with the same circumstances we have now. Man especially with Alfie's shot.


Way to early to judge. Give Weiss a chance..
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#347 Dabura

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:04 PM

wingslionstigers = Filppula


Don't Toews me, bro!


#348 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

wingslionstigers = Filppula


:lol:

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#349 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:27 PM

I get the feeling this was a "one-time experiment." Y'know, like, "Hey. Tatar. Score five goals in this game or it'll be the last game you play as a Wing." Because, come on, Babs and/or Holland love(s) Sammy to pieces. I mean, for all we know, Babs was just resting Sammy up, like Selanne.

Possibly.

Though in the 2 games he played, Sammy averaged 9 minutes. So even when he does play, Sammy is an old, overpaid 4th liner.

I kept hoping when he was actually healthy he'd prove me wrong and at least come close to earning his contract. But if the best he does is the 4th line, it looks like he could be a total waste of roster and cap space.

#350 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

Yeah Weiss is a mediocre top six. Do you think he is above average "top 6?" Is he better than Richards and Jeff Carter from LA? How about Penguins number two center in Malkin, or Ryan Kesler, or Rangers top two centers in Stepan and Richards. Better than Chicago's second line players of Hossa and Sharp? What about the Sharks, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Burns, Havlat, Marleau? Where does Weiss rank on that list...

I'm not pulling my opinion from three games. You forget he scored 4 points in 17 games last season for a +/- of -13? Weiss hasn't looked anything close to a top six forward during all of preseason up to now. I have watched him every second and he hasn't even shown a glimpse of talent. He didn't make a single useful move the entire game he scored the OT winner, he happened to have a puck pop out right on his stick on a open net.

Last year he was coming back from wrist surgery and played on a panthers team that finished last in the league and only won 12 games.

 

And to answer your first question. I don't know how good he is going to be. ITS BEEN 3 GAMES. Never really watched the Panthers... but from these 3 games and a bit of the pre-season he's looked pretty good to me. He can really skate.



#351 Euro_Twins

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

That's weird Euro twins. I watched every single second of all preseason and season but I somehow missed all that. What's especially ironic about it is that when I watch games I'm focused and don't have people around who would distract me. But what I saw was an in capability to handle the puck and slow down the play. I forgot everyone on this forum only judges stats and he happened to get a goal. This guy will be whopping boy of the season o this board. He won't produce more than filpulla. It's not his fault his linemates haven't produced for him? Alfredsson has looked great and the one who's victim of bad line mates. Franzen looks like he always does that's not going to change. He's going to score when he gets a chance, be a solid puck mover, but coast when he doesn't have the puck.


You keep mentioning his ot goal, which I never did. Also that goal he went right to the net so he put himself in position to score, something flip would not do. Also alfie has looked good, bit he hasn't been able to score. I never mentioned stats, I mentioned facts, he plays a lot more gritty than flip ever did, and to say he doesn't have the potential flip had, explain to me how he out scores flip almost every season.

#352 Crymson

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:07 PM

Yeah Weiss is a mediocre top six. Do you think he is above average "top 6?" Is he better than Richards and Jeff Carter from LA? How about Penguins number two center in Malkin, or Ryan Kesler, or Rangers top two centers in Stepan and Richards. Better than Chicago's second line players of Hossa and Sharp? What about the Sharks, Thornton, Couture, Pavelski, Burns, Havlat, Marleau? Where does Weiss rank on that list...

I'm not pulling my opinion from three games. You forget he scored 4 points in 17 games last season for a +/- of -13? Weiss hasn't looked anything close to a top six forward during all of preseason up to now. I have watched him every second and he hasn't even shown a glimpse of talent. He didn't make a single useful move the entire game he scored the OT winner, he happened to have a puck pop out right on his stick on a open net.

 

I'm curious why you think you know better than all of the analysts who believed that Weiss was a great signing.

 

As far as last season is concerned, you forget (or, rather, did not know in the first place) that he was playing with a severe wrist injury in those 17 games before that injury finally required surgery that put him out for good. Why you think that this invalidates four straight seasons of very productive play with one of the league's perennial losers is beyond me.

 

I missed the game but Sammy was already a healthy scratch?

Terrific. This signing is turning out to be just as awful as I thought. Sammy on LTIR last season may turn out to be the most help he gave the Wings.

It doesn't bode well when you have a player who is 6'2" 218lbs, one of the few right handed shots on the team, can play on the PP, and you still scratch him against Boston.

 

Samuelsson sustained a minor injury in the game against the Hurricanes; he played only two shifts in the third period.


Edited by Crymson, 07 October 2013 - 06:08 PM.


#353 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:15 PM

Samuelsson sustained a minor injury in the game against the Hurricanes; he played only two shifts in the third period.


Oh, ok. I knew he didn't really play in the third but didn't know if it was because of injury or because he was in the doghouse.

#354 _SP_

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:58 PM

RE: Weiss, From 7/5:

 

"I'm on board with the people aligning with this style of thinking.  I just don't understand how you give nearly $5M to a guy that has only performed exceptionally well when flanked by really good wingers (Booth/Horton).  Even then, he isn't much of a two-way player, and isn't very good in the faceoff circle (although, I will admit, he's finally reached 50% over the past two years).  I suppose I would be okay with the money if it was over three years and not five, but I think this signing will turn out to be a move that fans point back to in a couple of years and wonder why the Red Wings jumped the gun.

I may very well be wrong. In fact, as a fan of the team, I WANT to be wrong.  But when I hang up the sweater and look at this objectively... I think it has all of the makings of the subject featured in another popular thread: an overreaction.  I think the Red Wings jumped the gun and way overpaid in both years and dollars for a guy in a limited pool.  If it was $5.9 over two years... fine. But $4.9 over 5?  Not a fan."

 

 

 

And I stand by what I said.  This guy will not ever take over for Datsyuk, nor Zetterberg.  He will not be a true #1 center, nor will he be so dominant on the second line that you said, "DEFINITELY worth $5mil/yr".

 

 

 

When you look at what Tyler Kennedy or Matt Cullen signed for, it makes you shake your head.  Here's guys that can play the PK and would also be a physical presence next to Zetterberg.  Look at Tyler Bozak playing next to Kessel.  Think that couldn't be Zetterberg instead?  He signed for less money and he's 2 1/2 years younger.  

 

Instead, you've got players like Jarnkrok and Sheahan coming through the ranks- and quickly- yet you commit $5/yr to a guy who will never be better than a #2C.  Irrational decision in a weak market.   I think Jarnkrok tops out as a #2 Center and a PP guy while Sheahan settles in at #3 Center and a lead PK guy.  So in three years (when I think they'll be ready to assume these roles), do you push Weiss out via trade?  Cut him?  Keep him and put him at #1?  Move Jarnkrok and Sheahan down?  

It's just asinine to think that tying that much money up in a guy for five years is a good idea when due to previously-sustained injuries and age he's likely to be declining.  The only players signed for more than four years include Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard- three of the top four leaders.  The only other player in that group is Franzen (and I think he's amnestied this offseason).  Do you really see him as one of the top four players on the team?  The only skaters making more money than Weiss are Zetterberg and Datsyuk-- he's making more than Kronwall will.  

 

 

Like I said, over-payment for an average 2nd-line center.   I hope I'm wrong, because I'm a fan of the Detroit Red Wings and he is a player on the team, but man... the move, from an objective point of view, makes you scratch your head.

 

 

People complain about Filppula only averaging .52 points per game over his career... Weiss only averaged .6 points per game.  And he was running top minutes for quite some time.  Weiss averaged a goal every five games (.22) while Filppula averaged a goal every five games (.21)... Weiss has averaged 1:45/gm more than Fippula over 480+ games... that's a LOT more time on the ice, when it is all said and done.  +/- = -17 for Weiss's career with just two seasons over 10+... and the only other positive year was 2011-2012 @ +5.   Filppula = +44 with the opposite- just three season with a NEGATIVE +/-  (-4, -4, and -1).  Compare that to Weiss who has seven seasons in the negative... wow.  

 

 

And, yes, it has to do with the team around them, but Weiss was also +12 more than any other player ON THE POWER PLAY during his best season (+19) with playing only on 14.5% of the PK.   So he takes advantage of not playing on the PK while also playing on the PP.  



But... you all wanted to run Filppula out of town?  Dude, the Red Wings didn't replace him with anyone significantly better....


Edited by _SP_, 07 October 2013 - 11:56 PM.


#355 GoWings1905

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:06 AM

People are on Weiss after three games, but sat through many years waiting for Val Filppula's "potential"? I think Weiss probably deserves a little more time before a negative judgment.
 
 
"To whom much is given, much is expected."
 
 

 

 

 

 


#356 mjtm77

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:14 AM

RE: Weiss, From 7/5:
 
"I'm on board with the people aligning with this style of thinking.  I just don't understand how you give nearly $5M to a guy that has only performed exceptionally well when flanked by really good wingers (Booth/Horton).  Even then, he isn't much of a two-way player, and isn't very good in the faceoff circle (although, I will admit, he's finally reached 50% over the past two years).  I suppose I would be okay with the money if it was over three years and not five, but I think this signing will turn out to be a move that fans point back to in a couple of years and wonder why the Red Wings jumped the gun.
I may very well be wrong. In fact, as a fan of the team, I WANT to be wrong.  But when I hang up the sweater and look at this objectively... I think it has all of the makings of the subject featured in another popular thread: an overreaction.  I think the Red Wings jumped the gun and way overpaid in both years and dollars for a guy in a limited pool.  If it was $5.9 over two years... fine. But $4.9 over 5?  Not a fan."
 
 
And I stand by what I said.  This guy will not ever take over for Datsyuk, nor Zetterberg.  He will not be a true #1 center, nor will he be so dominant on the second line that you said, "DEFINITELY worth $5mil/yr".
 
 
 
When you look at what Tyler Kennedy or Matt Cullen signed for, it makes you shake your head.  Here's guys that can play the PK and would also be a physical presence next to Zetterberg.  Look at Tyler Bozak playing next to Kessel.  Think that couldn't be Zetterberg instead?  He signed for less money and he's 2 1/2 years younger.  
 
Instead, you've got players like Jarnkrok and Sheahan coming through the ranks- and quickly- yet you commit $5/yr to a guy who will never be better than a #2C.  Irrational decision in a weak market.   I think Jarnkrok tops out as a #2 Center and a PP guy while Sheahan settles in at #3 Center and a lead PK guy.  So in three years (when I think they'll be ready to assume these roles), do you push Weiss out via trade?  Cut him?  Keep him and put him at #1?  Move Jarnkrok and Sheahan down?  

It's just asinine to think that tying that much money up in a guy for five years is a good idea when due to previously-sustained injuries and age he's likely to be declining.  The only players signed for more than four years include Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Jimmy Howard- three of the top four leaders.  The only other player in that group is Franzen (and I think he's amnestied this offseason).  Do you really see him as one of the top four players on the team?  The only skaters making more money than Weiss are Zetterberg and Datsyuk-- he's making more than Kronwall will.  
 
 
Like I said, over-payment for an average 2nd-line center.   I hope I'm wrong, because I'm a fan of the Detroit Red Wings and he is a player on the team, but man... the move, from an objective point of view, makes you scratch your head.
 
 
People complain about Filppula only averaging .52 points per game over his career... Weiss only averaged .6 points per game.  And he was running top minutes for quite some time.  Weiss averaged a goal every five games (.22) while Filppula averaged a goal every five games (.21)... Weiss has averaged 1:45/gm more than Fippula over 480+ games... that's a LOT more time on the ice, when it is all said and done.  +/- = -17 for Weiss's career with just two seasons over 10+... and the only other positive year was 2011-2012 @ +5.   Filppula = +44 with the opposite- just three season with a NEGATIVE +/-  (-4, -4, and -1).  Compare that to Weiss who has seven seasons in the negative... wow.  
 
 
And, yes, it has to do with the team around them, but Weiss was also +12 more than any other player ON THE POWER PLAY during his best season (+19) with playing only on 14.5% of the PK.   So he takes advantage of not playing on the PK while also playing on the PP.  



But... you all wanted to run Filppula out of town?  Dude, the Red Wings didn't replace him with anyone significantly better....


Only time will tell on Weiss dude. we are only 3 games in!!!! But as it stands the second line looks like dog s***. HUGE disappointment so far...
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#357 Dabura

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:25 AM

People are on Weiss after three games, but sat through many years waiting for Val Filppula's "potential"? I think Weiss probably deserves a little more time before a negative judgment.

 

Seriously.

 

Look, I hate our team as much as the next guy. But it's been three f****** games. How long did Flip have? Forever? C'mon.

 

We all know Weiss is a good player, quite possibly even a better player than Flip. How can we possibly make that call? Because Weiss consistently put up better numbers on a consistently craptastic Panthers team, whereas Flip consistently had the best "supporting cast" a guy could ask for yet he still managed to consistently disappoint.

 

Again, Weiss has had all of three games to gel. And to his credit, he hasn't looked terrible. Maybe not the second coming of Shanahan circa '96-'97, but oh well.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#358 Dabura

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:46 PM

I didn't realize the two were that close PPG-wise. I was referring more to sheer points totals, though (e.g. Flip's only registered over, what was it, forty points once thus far?)

 

Both Flip and Weiss are good. Neither is bad. Neither will blow you away. But I do think this team, as it stands, needs a Weiss more than it needs a Flip. I also think trashing Weiss after all of three games is incredibly lame, especially if said trashing leans heavily on the tired subject of Valtteri Filppula's Potential (capital P!)

 

I do feel Weiss ultimately has sort of "done more with less," making a name for himself without the aid of, well, the Detroit Red Wings. I realize Weiss got the "star treatment" down in Florida, but even so, if I had to call one of him and Flip an overall disappointment, I think I'd choose Flip. (I'm not saying a case couldn't be made for Weiss being more of a disappointment (see: being picked, what was it, fourth overall?))

 

Whoa! Foligno almost took Flip's head off just now.


Edited by Dabura, 08 October 2013 - 06:54 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#359 _SP_

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:58 PM

I didn't realize the two were that close PPG-wise. I was referring more to sheer points totals, though (e.g. Flip's only registered over, what was it, forty points once thus far?)

 

Both Flip and Weiss are good. Neither is bad. Neither will blow you away. But I do think this team, as it stands, needs a Weiss more than it needs a Flip. I also think trashing Weiss after all of three games is incredibly lame, especially if said trashing leans heavily on the tired subject of Valtteri Filppula's Potential (capital P!)

 

I do feel Weiss ultimately has sort of "done more with less," making a name for himself without the aid of, well, the Detroit Red Wings. I realize Weiss got the "star treatment" down in Florida, but even so, if I had to call one of him and Flip an overall disappointment, I think I'd choose Flip. (I'm not saying a case couldn't be made for Weiss being more of a disappointment (see: being picked, what was it, fourth overall?))

 

Whoa! Foligno almost took Flip's head off just now.

 

I think you're missing my point, although it may not be clear:  I didn't like Filppula.   However, that doesn't mean I like Weiss simply for the fact that he's the replacement.  I think he's a replacement-level player, but they were BOTH given SIGNIFICANTLY overvalued contracts.  That's my issue.

 

Also, talking about point totals, Weiss came into the league in 2002, while Filppula came into the league in 2006.  Think about that for a second.  I mean, of course Weiss is going to have a higher point total- he has logged just under four THOUSAND more minutes.

 

 

Now, knowing this, lets look at even strength stats:

 

Stephen Weiss ES GoalsPG = .143; ES AssistsPG = .230...  ES PointsPG  = .373, or three points every eight games.

 

Valtteri Filppula ES GoalsPG = .173; ES AssistsPG = .253.... ES PointsPG = .426, or three points every seven games.

 

 

 

Like I said, Weiss makes up his stats on the Power Play, and always has.  He's too small to do any better 5-on-5.  He operates best in space, not the kind of contract you give to an undersized, 2nd center.


Edited by _SP_, 08 October 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#360 Dabura

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:20 PM

I don't mean cumulative point totals - I mean "In x season, Weiss registered [insert total] and Filppula registered [insert total]."

 

The only thing I've really taken issue with here - and this is the reason I decided to enter this conversation (admittedly, without having read your posts) (I mostly just wanted to agree with something GoWings1905 had said) (...which I think he said in response to you) (...so I guess that's why it looks like I'm in total disagreement with you, when that's not necessarily the case) - is the notion that Weiss sucks and Flip is awesome.

 

I've been intoxicated most of the day, and I'm only going to be more so as the night deepens. So if I disagree with someone, whether it's in one or two or a thousand degrees of separation or whatever, it's probably nothing to worry about.


Don't Toews me, bro!






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