• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Red Wings Addict

Will young talent ever speak out against Wings philosophy?

Rate this topic

78 posts in this topic

As another poster had already mentioned - is there anything wrong with a young player who's rather tired of either riding the pine at the NHL level, or a regular in GR, and is confident enough that he may possess greater skill/ability than lets say the 3 players I have mentioned earlier - so he gets in their face - roughs them up - shows the coaching staff that he's more than ready for regular duty at the NHL level?

I'm thinking if there's a true competitive spirit - some of these guys should show it, and if need be - "take it" since nuthin is gonna get handed out for free (well except silly contracts by Holland for the aging vets).

Some here such as yourself may forget that this is a competitive game; wallowing in self pity will get ya nowhere, and certainly complaining to the media will do no good with this organization...Sometimes ya gotta man the f-up to get things done...Sorry if that's a shock to you.

So you meant that the young guys should out compete the veterans, but you said "take a run at them" and "knock them out of the lineup for a bit"? Not buying it. Seems duplicitous to me. I'm not stupid and neither are you, if you had meant that they should outperform veterans, you would have said so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you meant that the young guys should out compete the veterans, but you said "take a run at them" and "knock them out of the lineup for a bit"? Not buying it. Seems duplicitous to me. I'm not stupid and neither are you, if you had meant that they should outperform veterans, you would have said so.

Out perform them - smack'em around - intimidate them...Yes - all of the above.

It's not like the 3 aging vets are crucial for this teams success; if any kid wants a shot at regular ice time - he should go out, and show the coaching staff what he's made of.

The league is rich in history of players changing up their game in order to play at the NHL level be it thru physical play, or becomming a shot blocker, or concentrating on the defensive side of the game, etc, etc.

IMHO this team could use more sand paper on the 3rd/4th lines; why not play with a physical edge at practice, and show what ya can do?.....If you ruffle a few feathers in the process - well so be it...At least you'll get noticed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out perform them - smack'em around - intimidate them...Yes - all of the above.

It's not like the 3 aging vets are crucial for this teams success; if any kid wants a shot at regular ice time - he should go out, and show the coaching staff what he's made of.

The league is rich in history of players changing up their game in order to play at the NHL level be it thru physical play, or becomming a shot blocker, or concentrating on the defensive side of the game, etc, etc.

IMHO this team could use more sand paper on the 3rd/4th lines; why not play with a physical edge at practice, and show what ya can do?.....If you ruffle a few feathers in the process - well so be it...At least you'll get noticed.

Dude, you said "take a run at them" and "knock them out of the lineup". You didn't say, "compete harder". You were clearly implying that they should injure the vets. No matter what you're saying now, that's what you said before. We all realize it, and now you're dodging it...poorly. You aren't nearly as clever as you think. Just own up to the absurd s*** you said and move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think DeKeyser would have been sent to GR but his agents made it quite clear he wouldn't sign here to play in the minors.

It doesn't matter what was said before the contract is signed. DD got to stay because he has proven that he belongs on the wings.

Hockeymom1960 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, you said "take a run at them" and "knock them out of the lineup". You didn't say, "compete harder". You were clearly implying that they should injure the vets. No matter what you're saying now, that's what you said before. We all realize it, and now you're dodging it...poorly. You aren't nearly as clever as you think. Just own up to the absurd s*** you said and move on.

Ok - if it gets yur panties outta the wad they're in...

Knock an aging vet outta the lineup at the very next practice - place them on LTIR.

You happy now?

EDIT - now go make that dip dammit!

Edited by F.Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't matter what was said before the contract is signed. DD got to stay because he has proven that he belongs on the wings.

You mean cause there are no vets signed to take his spot anymore. You can argue Tatar hasn't proved himself, but you can't argue that nyquist has earned a spot and doesn't deserve to be in the ahl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean cause there are no vets signed to take his spot anymore. You can argue Tatar hasn't proved himself, but you can't argue that nyquist has earned a spot and doesn't deserve to be in the ahl

Dekeyser is on the team because lids and hatcher said no to the four year 16m dollar deals with a no trade clause. If philly released pronger he would be our next target. O wait he is too big never mind he only meets the age and injury requirements.

Edited by DeGraa55

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think DeKeyser would have been sent to GR but his agents made it quite clear he wouldn't sign here to play in the minors.

I think that's absolute conjecture.

You mean cause there are no vets signed to take his spot anymore. You can argue Tatar hasn't proved himself, but you can't argue that nyquist has earned a spot and doesn't deserve to be in the ahl

You're forgetting a certain veteran defenseman whose name began with a C and had a lot of vowels in it. He was on the team last season and was scratched in favor of DeKeyser.

As for Nyquist, he has 13 points in 40 NHL regular season games, and five in 13 playoff games. It's not as if he tore up the charts while he was up.

Edited by Crymson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean cause there are no vets signed to take his spot anymore. You can argue Tatar hasn't proved himself, but you can't argue that nyquist has earned a spot and doesn't deserve to be in the ahl

Can you please elaborate? I don't understand what you're getting at. For the context of my post, see the post that I quoted. I was merely saying that the demands of dekeyser's agent have no bearing on the team's decisions, unless those demands were in the contract. I wasn't referring to Tatar or Nyquist at all. I think it is inexcusable for either of them to not be regulars on the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if we will ever see a player speak out, but as a fan, I REALLY wish some of the younger guys would be given a legitimate shot. Tatar and Nyquist, in my opinion, have more than earned a spot on the Red Wings roster. Although I like Bert and Sammy, I would much rather see Tatar and Nyquist playing right now. I was actually excited about this season because I foolishly thought we'd get to see more of Tatar and Nyquist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok - if it gets yur panties outta the wad they're in...

Knock an aging vet outta the lineup at the very next practice - place them on LTIR.

You happy now?

EDIT - now go make that dip dammit!

If you actually believe that, why all the back peddling?

Purposefully knocking a teammate out of the line up at practice is not only messed up, but it gets no one anywhere. Teammates and management would hate that player.

It's sad that the irrational hatred of our vets on this forum has come to this...

kipwinger likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like when little Bert put Jensen on the LTIR? Everyone on the forum was for it. Trying to make an impression and a name for himself. Go back a few years. probert, kocur, grimson all practiced fighting. Tommy hearns used to box Mccarty lapointe etc..... There are tryout videos online of McKee fighting others in the USHL tryout camp. Every player has to play their game to earn a spot. You do what you have too to make it.

Very simple: yes you do what you have too to win the job.

Just to disprove your outlandish, and idiotic comments:

Said Tyler: “I just don’t want to run a vet. I’ll still play hard, but I’m not going to do something stupid.”

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_relish.html

hillbillywingsfan and number9 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you please elaborate? I don't understand what you're getting at. For the context of my post, see the post that I quoted. I was merely saying that the demands of dekeyser's agent have no bearing on the team's decisions, unless those demands were in the contract. I wasn't referring to Tatar or Nyquist at all. I think it is inexcusable for either of them to not be regulars on the team.

I was mostly saying we are thin on defense, and can't afford to lose him. It's no secret that goose is in gr because of slow vets that shouldn't be playing, who are also causing Tatar and Tootoo to be healthy scratches

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My answer to this topic: If said young talented player would no longer like to skate on the ice in GR uniform and be on a bus headed out of town, then yes, it would be perfectly fine to speak out against their employers philosophies.

Edited by Learn2LuvIt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree I thought last year was the perfect mix of veterans and youngsters with the forward group.

Youngsters together on the third line playing against other teams third pairing D makes a lot of sense to me and it seemed to work out well.

Maybe too many youngsters on the defensive corps

It's kind of strange. I think we would benefit from more youngsters on offense, like the third line of Nyquist Andy and Tatar, but last year I think we would have benefited in the playoffs with the veteran experience of Ian White over the inexperience of young Smith.

Yes Babcock chooses opposite. Hmm.

I agree. One of the reasons the Wings even made the playoffs was because of the play of Brunner, Andersson, Nyquist, and Tatar. But it wasn't the Wings' plan to have them in the lineup (except Brunner, who was a low-risk gamble). So, as a thank-you to those players, Andersson gets saddled with 2 corpses for linemates, Tatar gets a seat in the press box, Brunner gets some black added to his uniform (NJ, where he has 3G/1A in 4GP but is a -3), and Nyquist isn't even in the league right now. Nice reward, eh?

At some point, leaving a player in the AHL becomes counterproductive. The AHL game is noticeably slower than the NHL game. There's only so much you can learn there. You cannot adjust to NHL play in the AHL. Andersson, Nyquist, and Tatar all showed very well in the NHL last year, showed they were ready for regular NHL duty. Brunner also proved he can play in the league. Why was that not good enough for Holland and Babcock?

Are there better defensive players than Brunner, Tatar, and Nyquist? Yes. But defensive awareness comes with experience, which you can only get with experience. You have to play. In the NHL. Was Yzerman a good defensive player in the first half of his career? NO. The vast majority of NHLers aren't. It's not fair to expect that from rookies.

If anyone can explain to me the benefits (short-term and long-term) of playing Samuelsson, Cleary, and Bertuzzi over Nyquist and Tatar, please, go for it!

Nev, F.Michael and frankgrimes like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My answer to this topic: If said young talented player would no longer like to skate on the ice in GR uniform and be on a bus headed out of town, then yes, it would be perfectly fine to speak out against their employers philosophies.

Last year, when Babcock scratched Smith for a game and Smith said it was OK, Babcock got PISSED and told him, no, it's not OK, I want you to be upset about this... how is being stuck in Grand Rapids or the press box ***when you have proven that you are capable of playing in Detroit*** any different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. One of the reasons the Wings even made the playoffs was because of the play of Brunner, Andersson, Nyquist, and Tatar. But it wasn't the Wings' plan to have them in the lineup (except Brunner, who was a low-risk gamble). So, as a thank-you to those players, Andersson gets saddled with 2 corpses for linemates, Tatar gets a seat in the press box, Brunner gets some black added to his uniform (NJ, where he has 3G/1A in 4GP but is a -3), and Nyquist isn't even in the league right now. Nice reward, eh?

At some point, leaving a player in the AHL becomes counterproductive. The AHL game is noticeably slower than the NHL game. There's only so much you can learn there. You cannot adjust to NHL play in the AHL. Andersson, Nyquist, and Tatar all showed very well in the NHL last year, showed they were ready for regular NHL duty. Brunner also proved he can play in the league. Why was that not good enough for Holland and Babcock?

Are there better defensive players than Brunner, Tatar, and Nyquist? Yes. But defensive awareness comes with experience, which you can only get with experience. You have to play. In the NHL. Was Yzerman a good defensive player in the first half of his career? NO. The vast majority of NHLers aren't. It's not fair to expect that from rookies.

If anyone can explain to me the benefits (short-term and long-term) of playing Samuelsson, Cleary, and Bertuzzi over Nyquist and Tatar, please, go for it!

Somethings you were unaware of or simply forgot in your rant:

Tatar was in the AHL (tearing it up mind you) during the push for the playoffs at the end of the season. His last game with the Wings was 3/10.

The Wings offered Brunner basically the same offer he signed, but they offered it to him before Free Agency even began, and BRUNNER TURNED IT DOWN. Him not being here has nothing to do with Holland and Babcock!

Also the biggest reasons the Wings still made the playoffs was the TWO WAY play (yes offense and defense) of guys like Dats and Z, you know vets, and the other was the play of Howard.

Brunner scored 5 points in the month of April, you know the stretch run, in which a vet by the name of Dan Cleary had the same Point Total?

Nyquist put up 4 points in the month of April, the same as Flip, a vet who plays a two way game, yet was just let go for under performing and the money he wanted.

For contrast purposes Z had 13 points in April and Dats had 14.

So other than stating facts that are simply not facts and/or ignoring the contributions of the Vets, your post was spot on!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't matter what was said before the contract is signed. DD got to stay because he has proven that he belongs on the wings.

True, but it also feels like he was a favored ace-up-the-sleeve of Nill/Holland. Nothing wrong with that concerning him, he's awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somethings you were unaware of or simply forgot in your rant:

Tatar was in the AHL (tearing it up mind you) during the push for the playoffs at the end of the season. His last game with the Wings was 3/10.

The Wings offered Brunner basically the same offer he signed, but they offered it to him before Free Agency even began, and BRUNNER TURNED IT DOWN. Him not being here has nothing to do with Holland and Babcock!

Also the biggest reasons the Wings still made the playoffs was the TWO WAY play (yes offense and defense) of guys like Dats and Z, you know vets, and the other was the play of Howard.

Brunner scored 5 points in the month of April, you know the stretch run, in which a vet by the name of Dan Cleary had the same Point Total?

Nyquist put up 4 points in the month of April, the same as Flip, a vet who plays a two way game, yet was just let go for under performing and the money he wanted.

For contrast purposes Z had 13 points in April and Dats had 14.

So other than stating facts that are simply not facts and/or ignoring the contributions of the Vets, your post was spot on!

Your points are valid, so please don't think I'm upset, but I can answer them:

-I know Tatar was in the AHL from March on. I was disappointed when he was sent back down. I thought when he was here, he was the 2nd best forward in the lineup behind Datsyuk. Tatar made something happen on most of his shifts. Few other guys were doing that at that time.

-Brunner did turn down a decent offer, yes. That's on him and his agent. I was disappointed that Holland didn't do more to keep Brunner, but giving away the farm would not have been a smart move.

-I said ONE OF the biggest reasons the Wings made the playoffs was the play of the young guys. One of. But a big one. Had they come up and not performed, this team would not have made the post-season. As it is, they made it on the last day, by one point. The #1 reason they made it was Jimmy Howard's play. He was rock-solid from about 3 weeks in until the very end. Team MVP, no question. Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's play and leadership were also huge.

-As for the points in April, that's fine. I'll still argue that the third line of Andersson, Brunner, and Nyquist was an important part of the Wings' making the playoffs and advancing as far as they did.

-Filppula DID underperform. He has every season but 2011-12. For all his talent, he should produce more than he does. I see he's off to a good start in Tampa... it'll be interesting to see how his season goes.

-Dan Cleary has been brutal for the last two years. Brutal. He had a good, productive playoffs, yes... but he's back to being brutal so far this year.

-I did not "ignore" the contributions of veteran players, my post was not meant to be a complete and total summary of last season. I was simply pointing out how some important parts of last year's team are being pushed aside at this time for players that I feel have less to offer.

Dabura and haroldsnepsts like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your points are valid, so please don't think I'm upset, but I can answer them:

-I know Tatar was in the AHL from March on. I was disappointed when he was sent back down. I thought when he was here, he was the 2nd best forward in the lineup behind Datsyuk. Tatar made something happen on most of his shifts. Few other guys were doing that at that time.

-Brunner did turn down a decent offer, yes. That's on him and his agent. I was disappointed that Holland didn't do more to keep Brunner, but giving away the farm would not have been a smart move.

-I said ONE OF the biggest reasons the Wings made the playoffs was the play of the young guys. One of. But a big one. Had they come up and not performed, this team would not have made the post-season. As it is, they made it on the last day, by one point. The #1 reason they made it was Jimmy Howard's play. He was rock-solid from about 3 weeks in until the very end. Team MVP, no question. Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's play and leadership were also huge.

-As for the points in April, that's fine. I'll still argue that the third line of Andersson, Brunner, and Nyquist was an important part of the Wings' making the playoffs and advancing as far as they did.

-Filppula DID underperform. He has every season but 2011-12. For all his talent, he should produce more than he does. I see he's off to a good start in Tampa... it'll be interesting to see how his season goes.

-Dan Cleary has been brutal for the last two years. Brutal. He had a good, productive playoffs, yes... but he's back to being brutal so far this year.

-I did not "ignore" the contributions of veteran players, my post was not meant to be a complete and total summary of last season. I was simply pointing out how some important parts of last year's team are being pushed aside at this time for players that I feel have less to offer.

The line of Brunner-Andersson-Nyquist was essential. They got the momentum going for the other lines, that in turn kept the momentum. Our 3rd line this year does nothing but kill momentum aside from Andersson, who looks kinda lost out there without any skill on his wings. So I'll back you 100% on that for sure. This year is sour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the OP, I didn't necessarily mean young talent in the Red Wings system.

I'm talking about young talent in ANY organization who looks back and publicly says, "I kind of dodged a bullet when Detroit didn't draft me. They're a top notch organization but so are the (insert good team here) or the (insert another good team here) and they reward their young talent better by not playing them in the minors longer than necessary."

Obviously that player will be wrong for saying such things publicly for everybody and their grandmother to hear but it's not exactly unimaginable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno.

On the one hand, we really do keep the kids down too long. But on the other hand...do we really keep them down too long? Isn't it fair to say that, for the most part, it's worked pretty well for our prospects, the team, the organization as a whole?

Look at, say, Jimmy. If memory serves, he took forever to really get a legitimate chance, right? Many outside the organization (fans, etc.) got to fearing he'd never make his way here. And now look at him. One of the best 'tenders in the world, no question. Which isn't to say he definitely wouldn't have become this good had he not been held down for so long. But I do feel it generally does more good than harm to the kids' development, this over-ripening approach.

I think the real problem right now is that Holland made some poor decisions regarding a few non-prospects (Sammy et al.), and now we've got some unnecessary roster-locks gumming up the works, clogging the pipeline.

Edited by Dabura

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the OP, I didn't necessarily mean young talent in the Red Wings system.

I'm talking about young talent in ANY organization who looks back and publicly says, "I kind of dodged a bullet when Detroit didn't draft me. They're a top notch organization but so are the (insert good team here) or the (insert another good team here) and they reward their young talent better by not playing them in the minors longer than necessary."

Obviously that player will be wrong for saying such things publicly for everybody and their grandmother to hear but it's not exactly unimaginable.

Why would young players on other teams randomly come out and bash Detroit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno.

On the one hand, we really do keep the kids down too long. But on the other hand...do we really keep them down too long? Isn't it fair to say that, for the most part, it's worked pretty well for our prospects, the team, the organization as a whole?

Look at, say, Jimmy. If memory serves, he took forever to really get a legitimate chance, right? Many outside the organization (fans, etc.) got to fearing he'd never make his way here. And now look at him. One of the best 'tenders in the world, no question. Which isn't to say he definitely wouldn't have become this good had he not been held down for so long. But I do feel it generally does more good than harm to the kids' development, this over-ripening approach.

I think the real problem right now is that Holland made some poor decisions regarding a few non-prospects (Sammy et al.), and now we've got some unnecessary roster-locks gumming up the works, clogging the pipeline.

It definitely worked for Howard, but I think in Smith's case, it has held him back. Babcock declared him "NHL-ready" in 2010, but it still took until what should have been the 2012-13 season for him to see regular duty. How much better would he be right now had he spent the first 20 games of 2011-12 paired with Lidstrom? Could he possibly have learned the same things in Grand Rapids as he would have here? Was signing Commodore a better option?

I think each prospect has a point where they plateau unless they move up to the next level. You can obviously promote a kid too soon and damage him, but you can also leave him in the AHL too long, he becomes too accustomed to that speed and level of play, and has trouble adjusting making the jump to the NHL. The trick is knowiing that point with each of your prospects.

I definitely agree that Holland's bad/unnecessary signings (Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Tootoo are on my list) have blocked the prospects and will hurt them in the long run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It definitely worked for Howard, but I think in Smith's case, it has held him back. Babcock declared him "NHL-ready" in 2010, but it still took until what should have been the 2012-13 season for him to see regular duty. How much better would he be right now had he spent the first 20 games of 2011-12 paired with Lidstrom? Could he possibly have learned the same things in Grand Rapids as he would have here? Was signing Commodore a better option?

I think each prospect has a point where they plateau unless they move up to the next level. You can obviously promote a kid too soon and damage him, but you can also leave him in the AHL too long, he becomes too accustomed to that speed and level of play, and has trouble adjusting making the jump to the NHL. The trick is knowiing that point with each of your prospects.

I definitely agree that Holland's bad/unnecessary signings (Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Tootoo are on my list) have blocked the prospects and will hurt them in the long run.

He probably wouldn't have been paired with Lidstrom, as I cannot remember the last time a rookie was given top pairing minutes in Detroit. Chances are even if he had been on the team, he would have been given bottom pairing minutes and Lidstrom's effect on him would have been negligible. Just like it was negligible on Ericsson or Kindl or Quincey before them. You've got to remember that in 2011-2012 White was paired with Lidstrom (and looked very solid) and Kronwall and Stuart were the second pair. There's no way that Smith breaks into the top four on that team.

There's a tendency to believe that pairing someone with Lidstrom or Datsyuk or whomever will significantly aide a rookie's development, and it's largely b.s. Having those guys around to cover your mistakes doesn't make you less prone to making them, it just makes mistakes less costly. The only real developmental effect that playing with Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom comes from teaching guys what it takes, in terms of preparation on and off the ice, to be successful at this level.

With or without Lidstrom, Smith would still make boneheaded plays...mostly because Smith is a bonehead. As I said, sticking him with someone who covers for him will make his mistakes less harmful, but it won't stop him from making them. That's what practice, experience, and playing in all situations is there for, and that's exactly why the Wings keep guys in the minors so long.

Edited by kipwinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0