Lineup Crunch: Who's going?

[dobbles 252]

Rant? I suggest you re-read my post, then compare it to yours and see which one of us is ranting.

I simply stated something I noticed about Tootoo from time to time. You citing his average shift length does little to refute what I was saying. Because it's an average of all his shifts, Tootoo could still have a low overall average but take the occasional extra long shift, like he did last night. He was easily out there over a minute at one point.

And I never said I expected Tootoo to score goals. I didn't even say he was bad. Actually, I stated that he wasn't bad. I just said I didn't know if he made enough of an impact that Babcock wouldn't try swapping someone else in his spot. Yeesh.

I didn't post any false information.

its apparently impossible to refute what you're saying as its based entirely on what you notice... ken and mick made mention of a long tootoo shift last night on the broadcast. i'm sure that was fresh on your mind, but i think you are making a long term statement based on that one situation. i looked at last nights shift charts, and ther was only 1 shift in the game that tootoo was out there more than a couple seconds after his linemaes changed. that was his first shift in the 2nd period. it did end up being a 86 second shift roughly. it was a sloppy change both ways with miller getting on later than tootoo and glendenning and then glendenning getting off before tootoo and miller. if i get more time i will go look at other game logs and the shift charts to see what i can find. but 1 long shift is an outlier not a pattern.

you were making an assertion without any justification. it ended up being pretty innaccurate. i would call that posting false information.

sorry for using the word rant in my first post. it unfortunately distracted from the rest of what i was saying.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

its apparently impossible to refute what you're saying as its based entirely on what you notice... ken and mick made mention of a long tootoo shift last night on the broadcast. i'm sure that was fresh on your mind, but i think you are making a long term statement based on that one situation. i looked at last nights shift charts, and ther was only 1 shift in the game that tootoo was out there more than a couple seconds after his linemaes changed. that was his first shift in the 2nd period. it did end up being a 86 second shift roughly. it was a sloppy change both ways with miller getting on later than tootoo and glendenning and then glendenning getting off before tootoo and miller. if i get more time i will go look at other game logs and the shift charts to see what i can find. but 1 long shift is an outlier not a pattern.

you were making an assertion without any justification. it ended up being pretty innaccurate. i would call that posting false information.

sorry for using the word rant in my first post. it unfortunately distracted from the rest of what i was saying.

Against Boston he took a shift of 1:06 in the first period and 1:14 in the third period. Those are long shifts for a 4th liner that doesn't play on the PK. And as you point out, against Columbus he was out there for 1:22, and he absolutely had opportunities to change.

My assertion that it might be why he wasn't in the lineup was absolutely speculation on my part. I didn't dig through all his shifts but it is something I've noticed he does from time to time. And I don't think it was an anomaly.

[dobbles 252]

Against Boston he took a shift of 1:06 in the first period and 1:14 in the third period. Those are long shifts for a 4th liner that doesn't play on the PK. And as you point out, against Columbus he was out there for 1:22, and he absolutely had opportunities to change.

My assertion that it might be why he wasn't in the lineup was absolutely speculation on my part. I didn't dig through all his shifts but it is something I've noticed he does from time to time. And I don't think it was an anomaly.

that boston game i think is more of an example of what i am saying. in the first period they had 3 ES shift. tootoo had the shortest shift of the players 2 times and in the example you cite, he changed before miller who had an equal length shift. for the rest of the game, he changed with the rest of his line.

i understand that 1 minute shifts are considered long these days. but i guess the point i am making is that overall his shift length is among the lowest on the team. and addiitonally any long shifts he has either the rest of his line is out there just as long and/or they all change at the same. time. that does not imply that tootoo stays out too long and is hurting the team.

i looked at the philly game for good measure. in that game there were no shifts in which he had the longest shift for his line. nor did it look like (at a quick glance) that he had very long ones in that game.

i will stop posting after this as there is little reason to continue to move in circles, i just think that the assertion is false and all the evidence tends to support my position. have a good day!

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Someone will have a tweaked something-or-other that will put them on IR until the next injury.

On a totally unrelated note, Fargo's supposed to get snow this weekend. I like Sammy. I need someone to run my snowblower. Just sayin'.

Once they've sent down Luke, the only other one they can send is Lashoff, which doesn't help since he's a d-man.

I suppose the knee-jerk-think-only-of-the-moment reaction (and therefore, the LGW Way) is to trade Smith.

I wonder how long we can keep the running IR list before the league gets suspicious?

Likely about 3 years. See Philadelphia as a quick reference.

I see Glendening heading back to GR, unfortunately. Eaves I think will get waived, possibly picked up. Edmonton could use a good grinder like him to go with all their stars who aren't doing their jobs. Tootoo is playing his way into great trade bait, but I hope along with the others that have mentioned that we keep Tootoo. Signing Miller this summer was redundant as all hell, (as was Cleary signing). He's beyond expendable. I like him for the PK, but other than that he's been useless. As far as trading Smith, I'd rather trade Franzen and deal with a cap penalty if he retires early.

[kipwinger 8,518]

If the choice is Eaves or Tootoo that should be a no brainer. Eaves doesnt add anything unique to the lineup.

Eaves is a much better all around player. He kills penalties, Tootoo doesn't. He scores goals occasionally, Tootoo doesn't. He's a really good defender, Tootoo isn't. Tootoo hits much better than Eaves, and that is unique, but in every other facet of the game Patrick Eaves is a superior player to Jordin Tootoo.

[ogreslayer 1,069]

Likely about 3 years. See Philadelphia as a quick reference.

I see Glendening heading back to GR, unfortunately. Eaves I think will get waived, possibly picked up. Edmonton could use a good grinder like him to go with all their stars who aren't doing their jobs. Tootoo is playing his way into great trade bait, but I hope along with the others that have mentioned that we keep Tootoo. Signing Miller this summer was redundant as all hell, (as was Cleary signing). He's beyond expendable. I like him for the PK, but other than that he's been useless. As far as trading Smith, I'd rather trade Franzen and deal with a cap penalty if he retires early.

I don't think that there's much danger of Eaves getting claimed on waivers if sent to GR, which doesn't really help the Wings all that much from a salary cap standpoint. $1.2m for a 4th line grinder/PK specialist is a little much for most teams with the drop in the salary cap this season when they can find someone to fill the same role for half that amount. I have my doubts that Tootoo would be claimed either if sent down, primarily due to that $1.9m salary. Kenny's going to have to eat some of those salaries and/or sweeten a deal with picks/prospects to trade either of them off to get cap compliant imo. Time for Kenny to prove why he has a reputation as one of the best.

[AL g 0]

Samuelsson is virtually untradable....no team will be willing to pay him $3 million. For the same reason, no team would claim him on waivers since they would be required to pay his full salary. If he gets put on waivers and goes unclaimed, since he is over 35, the Wings would only get cap relief of $100,000 which won't help stay under the cap once Helm and Eaves return. They are basically stuck with Sammy unless he happens to get hurt and goes on long term injured list. His $3 million would not count against the cap then.

[RyanBarnes! 293]

Eaves is a much better all around player. He kills penalties, Tootoo doesn't. He scores goals occasionally, Tootoo doesn't. He's a really good defender, Tootoo isn't. Tootoo hits much better than Eaves, and that is unique, but in every other facet of the game Patrick Eaves is a superior player to Jordin Tootoo.

And all of the above can be handled by other Red Wings players to equal or superior extent as Eaves, but there is noone else that brings what Tootoo does. Therefor Tootoo is more valuable than Eaves to the Red Wings.

[AL g 0]

Just something to consider in the Eaves/ Tootoo debate.............Eaves can actually be used in the playoffs, Tootoo is strictly a regular season player. So it comes down to whether you put more value in the regular season or the playoffs.

[RyanBarnes! 293]

Just something to consider in the Eaves/ Tootoo debate.............Eaves can actually be used in the playoffs, Tootoo is strictly a regular season player. So it comes down to whether you put more value in the regular season or the playoffs.

I think Tootoo would do just fine in the playoffs if given the chance. He has played lots of playoff games for Nashville. Saying he is not a playoff player because Babcock scratched him most games last year is like saying Tatar is not an NHL calibre player.

[kipwinger 8,518]

And all of the above can be handled by other Red Wings players to equal or superior extent as Eaves, but there is noone else that brings what Tootoo does. Therefor Tootoo is more valuable than Eaves to the Red Wings.

Only if you value hitting more than the other things. It should be apparent by now, the Wings value versatility and skill FAR more than they value hitting and fighting. As such, Tootoo has "more value" to the team you wish the Wings were, and not to the one that they actually are.

I like Tootoo, and if we weren't so hamstrung by s***ty contracts I'd like to see him remain on the team. But I don't think there's any chance that the Wings keep him over Eaves. Then again, there's always the chance they move them both so who knows?

Edited October 16, 2013 by kipwinger

[RyanBarnes! 293]

Only if you value hitting more than the other things. It should be apparent by now, the Wings value versatility and skill FAR more than they value hitting and fighting. As such, Tootoo has "more value" to the team you wish the Wings were, and not to the one that they actually are.

I like Tootoo, and if we weren't so hamstrung by s***ty contracts I'd like to see him remain on the team. But I don't think there's any chance that the Wings keep him over Eaves. Then again, there's always the chance they move them both so who knows?

I think any team could benefit from what Tootoo brings. He brings more than hitting and fighting. He brings energy. There is no team in this league that is looking to ice 18 players that play exactly the same, because a team like that would not be very succesful.

[AL g 0]

Is it just a coincidence that Tootoo is in the line-up now with Helm due to return soon ? Looks like Tootoo is being showcased to draw some interest for a possible trade. I have no issues with Tootoo being on the Wings, he plays a certain role but like the prior poster said, since the Wings are hamstrung with a few terrible contracts, it comes down to who is the better player. One more point to consider.......Eaves is in the last year of his contract while Tootoo has another year left next year, so the Wings may have to deal with the same thing all over again next year trying to stay under the cap.

[kipwinger 8,518]

I think any team could benefit from what Tootoo brings. He brings more than hitting and fighting. He brings energy. There is no team in this league that is looking to ice 18 players that play exactly the same, because a team like that would not be very succesful.

Look man, you may be right. Again, I like Tootoo. But I've been watching this team a long time, and the trend has always been toward more skilled, more versatile players. Plus, the fact that every team would like a guy like Tootoo only makes it MORE likely that he'll be the one moved. Finally, consider that he makes more than Eaves and you've got a perfect storm. A guy who makes more than his immediate competition, who would find a fit on most teams, yet who's skill set doesn't really fit into our organizational philosophy is far more likely to be traded than a guy who plays the right style, fills multiple roles, and who doesn't make as much.

Also, it's pretty clear that Babs has no faith in Tootoo. When the coach plays you less than your competition, you're not likely to stick around for long.

Again, I'm not saying your assessment of Tootoo is wrong. On most teams with almost any other GM and coach I'd say he'd have a fighting chance. Almost every armchair GM would keep him too. But on this team, with this style, and this management, I'd say he's the more likely candidate of the two.

[RyanBarnes! 293]

Is it just a coincidence that Tootoo is in the line-up now with Helm due to return soon ? Looks like Tootoo is being showcased to draw some interest for a possible trade. I have no issues with Tootoo being on the Wings, he plays a certain role but like the prior poster said, since the Wings are hamstrung with a few terrible contracts, it comes down to who is the better player. One more point to consider.......Eaves is in the last year of his contract while Tootoo has another year left next year, so the Wings may have to deal with the same thing all over again next year trying to stay under the cap.

Is Tootoo being showcased? Maybe, who knows right? ...but also remember that Tootoo just returned from injury himself and the lineup has not changed except in goal for three straight wins. Hockey is business and that is something different I'm afraid.

[AL g 0]

Something worth noting.....when Tootoo was a free agent last year, the Wings were the ONLY team to offer him a contract. The other 29 teams all passed. His own team (Nashville) deemed him expendable. And they had no salary cap issues. And he was willing to sign with them dirt cheap.

[RyanBarnes! 293]

Look man, you may be right. Again, I like Tootoo. But I've been watching this team a long time, and the trend has always been toward more skilled, more versatile players. Plus, the fact that every team would like a guy like Tootoo only makes it MORE likely that he'll be the one moved. Finally, consider that he makes more than Eaves and you've got a perfect storm. A guy who makes more than his immediate competition, who would find a fit on most teams, yet who's skill set doesn't really fit into our organizational philosophy is far more likely to be traded than a guy who plays the right style, fills multiple roles, and who doesn't make as much.

Also, it's pretty clear that Babs has no faith in Tootoo. When the coach plays you less than your competition, you're not likely to stick around for long.

Again, I'm not saying your assessment of Tootoo is wrong. On most teams with almost any other GM and coach I'd say he'd have a fighting chance. Almost every armchair GM would keep him too. But on this team, with this style, and this management, I'd say he's the more likely candidate of the two.

I have watched this team for quite some time myself, and although I agree that management tend to put a premium on skill I also know that every cup winning team has also included someone with a different skill set from most others on the team.

I'm not saying that it is out of the question that Tootoo is being shopped. Definitely not. Holland must be looking at every possibility to solve this mess and if the only way is to move Tootoo he will. On the other hand you would think that there was a reason Holland signed Tootoo in the first place. And between Eaves and Tootoo, well I think you know where I stand on that one by now. As for Babcock's faith in Tootoo I'm not sure I agree. Babcock is using the fourth line quite sparringly overall. I think Tootoo has shown he can contribute in limited minutes over the past few games.

[AL g 0]

The ironic thing about the Eaves/Tootoo debate is that they will BOTH most likely be gone once the Wings decide to call up Nyquist and give him a permanent roster spot. To stay under the salary cap once Helm and Nyquist are both on the team, they will have to get rid of 2 players with similar salaries and Eaves and Tootoo are the 2 most likely to go. Unless they rather keep one of those players over a young prospect like Tatar which seems unlikely at this point.

[kipwinger 8,518]

I have watched this team for quite some time myself, and although I agree that management tend to put a premium on skill I also know that every cup winning team has also included someone with a different skill set from most others on the team.

I'm not saying that it is out of the question that Tootoo is being shopped. Definitely not. Holland must be looking at every possibility to solve this mess and if the only way is to move Tootoo he will. On the other hand you would think that there was a reason Holland signed Tootoo in the first place. And between Eaves and Tootoo, well I think you know where I stand on that one by now. As for Babcock's faith in Tootoo I'm not sure I agree. Babcock is using the fourth line quite sparringly overall. I think Tootoo has shown he can contribute in limited minutes over the past few games.

It's not just this season though, last year Tootoo played less at even strength than every other (regular) forward. Only Mursak, Helm, and Sheahan had less ES time on ice per game. He also hardly used him in the playoffs, what was it...a game or two? This year it's even less. Now factor in the fact that we're taking more penalties so far this year and his available time on ice is further decreased. You may be right about each team needing something different, but that doesn't mean the "something different" should be a one dimensional guy who hits. Maybe the "something different" is a freak offensive d-man like Karlsson, or maybe it's a Holmstrom type net front guy who makes the difference. Maybe it's a Dustin Byfuglien type "rover". Maybe all of the above. But I think it's misleading to suggest that the "something different" on which a Stanley Cup depends (according to you) needs to be a fourth line hitter who plays six or seven minutes a night and only in 5-on-5 situations. That's giving the guy WAY more credit than he's earned.

Edited October 16, 2013 by kipwinger

[matthewdanna 143]

One thing that "might" help us in trading someone is that the new CBA allows for teams to pay a percentage of the contract (just like in MLB). I'd eat $2M of Sammy's contract if it meant we could trade him. Do you think a team would pay the other $1M?

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

One thing that "might" help us in trading someone is that the new CBA allows for teams to pay a percentage of the contract (just like in MLB). I'd eat $2M of Sammy's contract if it meant we could trade him. Do you think a team would pay the other $1M?

Doesn't matter he has a full no-trade clause.

[kipwinger 8,518]

One thing that "might" help us in trading someone is that the new CBA allows for teams to pay a percentage of the contract (just like in MLB). I'd eat $2M of Sammy's contract if it meant we could trade him. Do you think a team would pay the other $1M?

I definitely think an offensively challenged team would take Sammy for 1 million. But I think it would be smarter to waive him first and see if anyone picks him up before offering to eat salary.

Doesn't matter he has a full no-trade clause.

He doesn't have a no movement clause though, so he can be waived and picked up by someone else.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I definitely think an offensively challenged team would take Sammy for 1 million. But I think it would be smarter to waive him first and see if anyone picks him up before offering to eat salary.

He doesn't have a no movement clause though, so he can be waived and picked up by someone else.

There is no way a team would pick up Sammy off waivers. I don't see any likely scenario where that would happen. Wishful thinking.

In regards to salary retention, we can only withhold a maximum of 50%

[kipwinger 8,518]

There is no way a team would pick up Sammy off waivers. I don't see any likely scenario where that would happen. Wishful thinking.

In regards to salary retention, we can only withhold a maximum of 50%

Well what makes it plausible is that he's in the last year of his contract. Anybody who picked him up would certainly be taking a gamble, but if it didn't pay off it's not like they'd be stuck with him. Like I said, I think an offensively challenged team or perhaps one with some injury problems MIGHT be willing to take the chance on him given his history, if only for a half of a season. Remember that contracts are pro-rated as the season progresses, so any team that picked him up wouldn't be on the hook for his full yearly salary anyway. Only the cap hit would count against them, and only for the remainder of this season.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds initially, and it's certainly more likely than someone trading assets for him.

Edit: Teams like Buffalo, Florida, Calgary, Ottawa, New Jersey, or Nashville are all on the low end of the cap picture, and also seem to be having trouble finding consistent offense. As such, they certainly fit the bill as far as teams that might take a chance. Especially if they find themselves competitive in spite of their offensive woes like Ottawa, Calgary, and Nashville have.

Edited October 16, 2013 by kipwinger

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Well what makes it plausible is that he's in the last year of his contract. Anybody who picked him up would certainly be taking a gamble, but if it didn't pay off it's not like they'd be stuck with him. Like I said, I think an offensively challenged team or perhaps one with some injury problems MIGHT be willing to take the chance on him given his history, if only for a half of a season. Remember that contracts are pro-rated as the season progresses, so any team that picked him up wouldn't be on the hook for his full yearly salary anyway. Only the cap hit would count against them, and only for the remainder of this season.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds initially, and it's certainly more likely than someone trading assets for him.

Edit: Teams like Buffalo, Florida, or Nashville are all on the low end of the cap picture, and also seem to be having trouble finding offense. As such, they certainly fit the bill as far as teams that might take a chance. Especially if they find themselves competitive in spite of their offensive woes.

Think about it again from the viewpoint of a team like Buffalo or Florida though. They're not making the playoffs and are not even close to contenders. They're number one priority is long-term growth player and development. So why bring in overpaid guy like Sammy who's borderline retired and not known for his leadership? He will only take away minutes from those whom the team actually wants to develop while (if he actually did provide scoring) distancing them from a lottery pick. Teams like that (whether losing or not) want to create a positive atmosphere and a guy who just got ditched by a cup contender is not going to help with that.