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Lineup Crunch: Who's going?


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#21 ogreslayer

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:07 AM

Eaves willl be the odd man out. Has to be. Glendening will go back to GRs.

 

Miller - Helm - Tootoo

 

with Sammy and Tatar as healthy scratches.

 

That doesn't clear enough salary with Helm's $2.125m coming back on the books, even if Kenny manages to trade Eaves outright as that only clears up $1.775m.  If he can't trade Eaves & sends him to GR with Glendening, that only clears $850k because of the new buried contract rules.  If the end result the Wings want is to have Helm & Nyquist on the roster this season, that means at the very least one of Tootoo or Eaves will be traded & the other plus Glendening head back to GR. 



#22 rick zombo

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:14 AM

 

wow, someone posts entirely false information, but you take issue with my choice of adjective in correcting them?

 

He said "seems". You made it sound like he came down from a mountain with a stone tablet, proclaiming gospel. But mostly, have some respect for the mods. 


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#23 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

 
That doesn't clear enough salary with Helm's $2.125m coming back on the books, even if Kenny manages to trade Eaves outright as that only clears up $1.775m.  If he can't trade Eaves & sends him to GR with Glendening, that only clears $850k because of the new buried contract rules.  If the end result the Wings want is to have Helm & Nyquist on the roster this season, that means at the very least one of Tootoo or Eaves will be traded & the other plus Glendening head back to GR. 

If the choice is Eaves or Tootoo that should be a no brainer. Eaves doesnt add anything unique to the lineup.
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#24 Kira

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:27 AM

I will be sad to see Luke head back to GR, but it will probably be for the best.  I want to see Patrick stay, because he's always been good on the penalty kill.  Personally, I'd like to see Cleary given his walking papers.  He should never have come back in the first place.


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#25 ogreslayer

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:28 AM

If the choice is Eaves or Tootoo that should be a no brainer. Eaves doesnt add anything unique to the lineup.

 

 Either way, I think Kenny's going to have to sweeten any deal to trade either one of them, whether it's a draft pick or decent prospect.



#26 dobbles

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:41 AM

Rant? I suggest you re-read my post, then compare it to yours and see which one of us is ranting.

I simply stated something I noticed about Tootoo from time to time. You citing his average shift length does little to refute what I was saying. Because it's an average of all his shifts, Tootoo could still have a low overall average but take the occasional extra long shift, like he did last night. He was easily out there over a minute at one point.

And I never said I expected Tootoo to score goals. I didn't even say he was bad. Actually, I stated that he wasn't bad. I just said I didn't know if he made enough of an impact that Babcock wouldn't try swapping someone else in his spot. Yeesh.
I didn't post any false information.

 

its apparently impossible to refute what you're saying as its based entirely on what you notice... ken and mick made mention of a long tootoo shift last night on the broadcast. i'm sure that was fresh on your mind, but i think you are making a long term statement based on that one situation. i looked at last nights shift charts, and ther was only 1 shift in the game that tootoo was out there more than a couple seconds after his linemaes changed. that was his first shift in the 2nd period. it did end up being a 86 second shift roughly. it was a sloppy change both ways with miller getting on later than tootoo and glendenning and then glendenning getting off before tootoo and miller. if i get more time i will go look at other game logs and the shift charts to see what i can find. but 1 long shift is an outlier not a pattern.

 

you were making an assertion without any justification. it ended up being pretty innaccurate. i would call that posting false information.

 

sorry for using the word rant in my first post. it unfortunately distracted from the rest of what i was saying.


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#27 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:58 AM

its apparently impossible to refute what you're saying as its based entirely on what you notice... ken and mick made mention of a long tootoo shift last night on the broadcast. i'm sure that was fresh on your mind, but i think you are making a long term statement based on that one situation. i looked at last nights shift charts, and ther was only 1 shift in the game that tootoo was out there more than a couple seconds after his linemaes changed. that was his first shift in the 2nd period. it did end up being a 86 second shift roughly. it was a sloppy change both ways with miller getting on later than tootoo and glendenning and then glendenning getting off before tootoo and miller. if i get more time i will go look at other game logs and the shift charts to see what i can find. but 1 long shift is an outlier not a pattern.
 
you were making an assertion without any justification. it ended up being pretty innaccurate. i would call that posting false information.
 
sorry for using the word rant in my first post. it unfortunately distracted from the rest of what i was saying.


Against Boston he took a shift of 1:06 in the first period and 1:14 in the third period. Those are long shifts for a 4th liner that doesn't play on the PK. And as you point out, against Columbus he was out there for 1:22, and he absolutely had opportunities to change.

My assertion that it might be why he wasn't in the lineup was absolutely speculation on my part. I didn't dig through all his shifts but it is something I've noticed he does from time to time. And I don't think it was an anomaly.

#28 dobbles

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:14 AM

Against Boston he took a shift of 1:06 in the first period and 1:14 in the third period. Those are long shifts for a 4th liner that doesn't play on the PK. And as you point out, against Columbus he was out there for 1:22, and he absolutely had opportunities to change.

My assertion that it might be why he wasn't in the lineup was absolutely speculation on my part. I didn't dig through all his shifts but it is something I've noticed he does from time to time. And I don't think it was an anomaly.

 

that boston game i think is more of an example of what i am saying. in the first period they had 3 ES shift. tootoo had the shortest shift of the players 2 times and in the example you cite, he changed before miller who had an equal length shift. for the rest of the game, he changed with the rest of his line.

 

i understand that 1 minute shifts are considered long these days. but i guess the point i am making is that overall his shift length is among the lowest on the team. and addiitonally any long shifts he has either the rest of his line is out there just as long and/or they all change at the same. time. that does not imply that tootoo stays out too long and is hurting the team.

 

i looked at the philly game for good measure. in that game there were no shifts in which he had the longest shift for his line. nor did it look like (at a quick glance) that he had very long ones in that game.

 

i will stop posting after this as there is little reason to continue to move in circles, i just think that the assertion is false and all the evidence tends to support my position. have a good day!


I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.


#29 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:38 PM

Someone will have a tweaked something-or-other that will put them on IR until the next injury.

 

On a totally unrelated note, Fargo's supposed to get snow this weekend.  I like Sammy.  I need someone to run my snowblower.  Just sayin'.

 

Once they've sent down Luke, the only other one they can send is Lashoff, which doesn't help since he's a d-man.

 

I suppose the knee-jerk-think-only-of-the-moment reaction (and therefore, the LGW Way) is to trade Smith.

 

I wonder how long we can keep the running IR list before the league gets suspicious?

Likely about 3 years.  See Philadelphia as a quick reference.

 

I see Glendening heading back to GR, unfortunately.  Eaves I think will get waived, possibly picked up.  Edmonton could use a good grinder like him to go with all their stars who aren't doing their jobs.  Tootoo is playing his way into great trade bait, but I hope along with the others that have mentioned that we keep Tootoo.  Signing Miller this summer was redundant as all hell, (as was Cleary signing).  He's beyond expendable.  I like him for the PK, but other than that he's been useless.  As far as trading Smith, I'd rather trade Franzen and deal with a cap penalty if he retires early.


Free darkmanx!

 

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#30 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM

If the choice is Eaves or Tootoo that should be a no brainer. Eaves doesnt add anything unique to the lineup.

 

Eaves is a much better all around player.  He kills penalties, Tootoo doesn't.  He scores goals occasionally, Tootoo doesn't.  He's a really good defender, Tootoo isn't.  Tootoo hits much better than Eaves, and that is unique, but in every other facet of the game Patrick Eaves is a superior player to Jordin Tootoo.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 ogreslayer

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:20 PM

Likely about 3 years.  See Philadelphia as a quick reference.

 

I see Glendening heading back to GR, unfortunately.  Eaves I think will get waived, possibly picked up.  Edmonton could use a good grinder like him to go with all their stars who aren't doing their jobs.  Tootoo is playing his way into great trade bait, but I hope along with the others that have mentioned that we keep Tootoo.  Signing Miller this summer was redundant as all hell, (as was Cleary signing).  He's beyond expendable.  I like him for the PK, but other than that he's been useless.  As far as trading Smith, I'd rather trade Franzen and deal with a cap penalty if he retires early.

 

I don't think that there's much danger of Eaves getting claimed on waivers if sent to GR, which doesn't really help the Wings all that much from a salary cap standpoint.  $1.2m for a 4th line grinder/PK specialist is a little much for most teams with the drop in the salary cap this season when they can find someone to fill the same role for half that amount.  I have my doubts that Tootoo would be claimed either if sent down, primarily due to that $1.9m salary.  Kenny's going to have to eat some of those salaries and/or sweeten a deal with picks/prospects to trade either of them off to get cap compliant imo.  Time for Kenny to prove why he has a reputation as one of the best.



#32 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

Samuelsson is virtually untradable....no team will be willing to pay him $3 million. For the same reason, no team would claim him on waivers since they would be required to pay his full salary. If he gets put on waivers and goes unclaimed, since he is over 35, the Wings would only get cap relief of $100,000 which won't help stay under the cap once Helm and Eaves return. They are basically stuck with Sammy unless he happens to get hurt and goes on long term injured list. His $3 million would not count against the cap then.

#33 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:26 PM

Eaves is a much better all around player.  He kills penalties, Tootoo doesn't.  He scores goals occasionally, Tootoo doesn't.  He's a really good defender, Tootoo isn't.  Tootoo hits much better than Eaves, and that is unique, but in every other facet of the game Patrick Eaves is a superior player to Jordin Tootoo.

And all of the above can be handled by other Red Wings players to equal or superior extent as Eaves, but there is noone else that brings what Tootoo does. Therefor Tootoo is more valuable than Eaves to the Red Wings.
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#34 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:31 PM

Just something to consider in the Eaves/ Tootoo debate.............Eaves can actually be used in the playoffs, Tootoo is strictly a regular season player.   So it comes down to whether you put more value in the regular season or the playoffs. 



#35 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:40 PM

Just something to consider in the Eaves/ Tootoo debate.............Eaves can actually be used in the playoffs, Tootoo is strictly a regular season player.   So it comes down to whether you put more value in the regular season or the playoffs.

I think Tootoo would do just fine in the playoffs if given the chance. He has played lots of playoff games for Nashville. Saying he is not a playoff player because Babcock scratched him most games last year is like saying Tatar is not an NHL calibre player.
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#36 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

And all of the above can be handled by other Red Wings players to equal or superior extent as Eaves, but there is noone else that brings what Tootoo does. Therefor Tootoo is more valuable than Eaves to the Red Wings.

 

Only if you value hitting more than the other things.  It should be apparent by now, the Wings value versatility and skill FAR more than they value hitting and fighting.  As such, Tootoo has "more value" to the team you wish the Wings were, and not to the one that they actually are.

 

I like Tootoo, and if we weren't so hamstrung by s***ty contracts I'd like to see him remain on the team.  But I don't think there's any chance that the Wings keep him over Eaves.  Then again, there's always the chance they move them both so who knows?


Edited by kipwinger, 16 October 2013 - 02:46 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#37 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:50 PM

Only if you value hitting more than the other things.  It should be apparent by now, the Wings value versatility and skill FAR more than they value hitting and fighting.  As such, Tootoo has "more value" to the team you wish the Wings were, and not to the one that they actually are.
 
I like Tootoo, and if we weren't so hamstrung by s***ty contracts I'd like to see him remain on the team.  But I don't think there's any chance that the Wings keep him over Eaves.  Then again, there's always the chance they move them both so who knows?

I think any team could benefit from what Tootoo brings. He brings more than hitting and fighting. He brings energy. There is no team in this league that is looking to ice 18 players that play exactly the same, because a team like that would not be very succesful.
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#38 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

Is it just a coincidence that Tootoo is in the line-up now with Helm due to return soon ?  Looks like Tootoo is being showcased to draw some interest for a possible trade.  I have no issues with Tootoo being on the Wings, he plays a certain role but like the prior poster said, since the Wings are hamstrung with a few terrible contracts, it comes down to who is the better player.  One more point to consider.......Eaves is in the last year of his contract while Tootoo has another year left next year, so the Wings may have to deal with the same thing all over again next year trying to stay under the cap. 



#39 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think any team could benefit from what Tootoo brings. He brings more than hitting and fighting. He brings energy. There is no team in this league that is looking to ice 18 players that play exactly the same, because a team like that would not be very succesful.

 

Look man, you may be right.  Again, I like Tootoo.  But I've been watching this team a long time, and the trend has always been toward more skilled, more versatile players.  Plus, the fact that every team would like a guy like Tootoo only makes it MORE likely that he'll be the one moved.  Finally, consider that he makes more than Eaves and you've got a perfect storm.  A guy who makes more than his immediate competition, who would find a fit on most teams, yet who's skill set doesn't really fit into our organizational philosophy is far more likely to be traded than a guy who plays the right style, fills multiple roles, and who doesn't make as much. 

 

Also, it's pretty clear that Babs has no faith in Tootoo.  When the coach plays you less than your competition, you're not likely to stick around for long.

 

Again, I'm not saying your assessment of Tootoo is wrong.  On most teams with almost any other GM and coach I'd say he'd have a fighting chance.  Almost every armchair GM would keep him too.  But on this team, with this style, and this management, I'd say he's the more likely candidate of the two. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#40 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

Is it just a coincidence that Tootoo is in the line-up now with Helm due to return soon ?  Looks like Tootoo is being showcased to draw some interest for a possible trade.  I have no issues with Tootoo being on the Wings, he plays a certain role but like the prior poster said, since the Wings are hamstrung with a few terrible contracts, it comes down to who is the better player.  One more point to consider.......Eaves is in the last year of his contract while Tootoo has another year left next year, so the Wings may have to deal with the same thing all over again next year trying to stay under the cap.

Is Tootoo being showcased? Maybe, who knows right? ...but also remember that Tootoo just returned from injury himself and the lineup has not changed except in goal for three straight wins. Hockey is business and that is something different I'm afraid.
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"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate





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