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Lineup Crunch: Who's going?


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#41 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:21 PM

Something worth noting.....when Tootoo was a free agent last year, the Wings were the ONLY team to offer him a contract.  The other 29 teams all passed.  His own team (Nashville) deemed him expendable.  And they had no salary cap issues.  And he was willing to sign with them dirt cheap. 



#42 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:27 PM

Look man, you may be right.  Again, I like Tootoo.  But I've been watching this team a long time, and the trend has always been toward more skilled, more versatile players.  Plus, the fact that every team would like a guy like Tootoo only makes it MORE likely that he'll be the one moved.  Finally, consider that he makes more than Eaves and you've got a perfect storm.  A guy who makes more than his immediate competition, who would find a fit on most teams, yet who's skill set doesn't really fit into our organizational philosophy is far more likely to be traded than a guy who plays the right style, fills multiple roles, and who doesn't make as much. 
 
Also, it's pretty clear that Babs has no faith in Tootoo.  When the coach plays you less than your competition, you're not likely to stick around for long.
 
Again, I'm not saying your assessment of Tootoo is wrong.  On most teams with almost any other GM and coach I'd say he'd have a fighting chance.  Almost every armchair GM would keep him too.  But on this team, with this style, and this management, I'd say he's the more likely candidate of the two.

I have watched this team for quite some time myself, and although I agree that management tend to put a premium on skill I also know that every cup winning team has also included someone with a different skill set from most others on the team.

I'm not saying that it is out of the question that Tootoo is being shopped. Definitely not. Holland must be looking at every possibility to solve this mess and if the only way is to move Tootoo he will. On the other hand you would think that there was a reason Holland signed Tootoo in the first place. And between Eaves and Tootoo, well I think you know where I stand on that one by now. As for Babcock's faith in Tootoo I'm not sure I agree. Babcock is using the fourth line quite sparringly overall. I think Tootoo has shown he can contribute in limited minutes over the past few games.
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#43 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

The ironic thing about the Eaves/Tootoo debate is that they will BOTH most likely be gone once the Wings decide to call up Nyquist and give him a permanent roster spot.  To stay under the salary cap once Helm and Nyquist are both on the team, they will have to get rid of 2 players with similar salaries and Eaves and Tootoo are the 2 most likely to go.  Unless they rather keep one of those players over a young prospect like Tatar which seems unlikely at this point. 



#44 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:41 PM

I have watched this team for quite some time myself, and although I agree that management tend to put a premium on skill I also know that every cup winning team has also included someone with a different skill set from most others on the team.

I'm not saying that it is out of the question that Tootoo is being shopped. Definitely not. Holland must be looking at every possibility to solve this mess and if the only way is to move Tootoo he will. On the other hand you would think that there was a reason Holland signed Tootoo in the first place. And between Eaves and Tootoo, well I think you know where I stand on that one by now. As for Babcock's faith in Tootoo I'm not sure I agree. Babcock is using the fourth line quite sparringly overall. I think Tootoo has shown he can contribute in limited minutes over the past few games.

 

 

It's not just this season though, last year Tootoo played less at even strength than every other (regular) forward.  Only Mursak, Helm, and Sheahan had less ES time on ice per game.  He also hardly used him in the playoffs, what was it...a game or two?  This year it's even less.  Now factor in the fact that we're taking more penalties so far this year and his available time on ice is further decreased.  You may be right about each team needing something different, but that doesn't mean the "something different" should be a one dimensional guy who hits.  Maybe the "something different" is a freak offensive d-man like Karlsson, or maybe it's a Holmstrom type net front guy who makes the difference.  Maybe it's a Dustin Byfuglien type "rover".  Maybe all of the above.  But I think it's misleading to suggest that the "something different" on which a Stanley Cup depends (according to you) needs to be a fourth line hitter who plays six or seven minutes a night and only in 5-on-5 situations.  That's giving the guy WAY more credit than he's earned.


Edited by kipwinger, 16 October 2013 - 03:52 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#45 matthewdanna

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:48 PM

One thing that "might" help us in trading someone is that the new CBA allows for teams to pay a percentage of the contract (just like in MLB).  I'd eat $2M of Sammy's contract if it meant we could trade him.  Do you think a team would pay the other $1M?



#46 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:49 PM

One thing that "might" help us in trading someone is that the new CBA allows for teams to pay a percentage of the contract (just like in MLB).  I'd eat $2M of Sammy's contract if it meant we could trade him.  Do you think a team would pay the other $1M?

 

Doesn't matter he has a full no-trade clause.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#47 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:53 PM

One thing that "might" help us in trading someone is that the new CBA allows for teams to pay a percentage of the contract (just like in MLB).  I'd eat $2M of Sammy's contract if it meant we could trade him.  Do you think a team would pay the other $1M?

 

I definitely think an offensively challenged team would take Sammy for 1 million.  But I think it would be smarter to waive him first and see if anyone picks him up before offering to eat salary.


 

Doesn't matter he has a full no-trade clause.

 

He doesn't have a no movement clause though, so he can be waived and picked up by someone else.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#48 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:02 PM

 

I definitely think an offensively challenged team would take Sammy for 1 million.  But I think it would be smarter to waive him first and see if anyone picks him up before offering to eat salary.


 

He doesn't have a no movement clause though, so he can be waived and picked up by someone else.

 

There is no way a team would pick up Sammy off waivers. I don't see any likely scenario where that would happen. Wishful thinking.

 

In regards to salary retention, we can only withhold a maximum of 50%


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#49 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:07 PM

 

There is no way a team would pick up Sammy off waivers. I don't see any likely scenario where that would happen. Wishful thinking.

 

In regards to salary retention, we can only withhold a maximum of 50%

 

Well what makes it plausible is that he's in the last year of his contract.  Anybody who picked him up would certainly be taking a gamble, but if it didn't pay off it's not like they'd be stuck with him.  Like I said, I think an offensively challenged team or perhaps one with some injury problems MIGHT be willing to take the chance on him given his history, if only for a half of a season.  Remember that contracts are pro-rated as the season progresses, so any team that picked him up wouldn't be on the hook for his full yearly salary anyway.  Only the cap hit would count against them, and only for the remainder of this season. 

 

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds initially, and it's certainly more likely than someone trading assets for him.

 

Edit:  Teams like Buffalo, Florida, Calgary, Ottawa, New Jersey, or Nashville are all on the low end of the cap picture, and also seem to be having trouble finding consistent offense.  As such, they certainly fit the bill as far as teams that might take a chance.  Especially if they find themselves competitive in spite of their offensive woes like Ottawa, Calgary, and Nashville have.


Edited by kipwinger, 16 October 2013 - 04:17 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#50 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:26 PM

 

Well what makes it plausible is that he's in the last year of his contract.  Anybody who picked him up would certainly be taking a gamble, but if it didn't pay off it's not like they'd be stuck with him.  Like I said, I think an offensively challenged team or perhaps one with some injury problems MIGHT be willing to take the chance on him given his history, if only for a half of a season.  Remember that contracts are pro-rated as the season progresses, so any team that picked him up wouldn't be on the hook for his full yearly salary anyway.  Only the cap hit would count against them, and only for the remainder of this season. 

 

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds initially, and it's certainly more likely than someone trading assets for him.

 

Edit:  Teams like Buffalo, Florida, or Nashville are all on the low end of the cap picture, and also seem to be having trouble finding offense.  As such, they certainly fit the bill as far as teams that might take a chance.  Especially if they find themselves competitive in spite of their offensive woes.

 

Think about it again from the viewpoint of a team like Buffalo or Florida though.  They're not making the playoffs and are not even close to contenders. They're number one priority is long-term growth player and development. So why bring in overpaid guy like Sammy who's borderline retired and not known for his leadership?  He will only take away minutes from those whom the team actually wants to develop while (if he actually did provide scoring) distancing them from a lottery pick. Teams like that (whether losing or not) want to create a positive atmosphere and a guy who just got ditched by a cup contender is not going to help with that.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#51 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

No way will any GM claim Sammy on waivers and pay him the full  $3 mil.  Even if the new CBA allows the Wings to eat most of his salary in a trade, the new team would still have $3 mil counted against THEIR salary cap......how many teams would be willing to do this ?  Maybe a team way at the bottom of the salary cap scale, but then those teams are in a rebuilding mode with young players, not dinosaurs with injury issues.  As far as some team picking up Sammy late in the season, that won't help the Wings cap issues now with injured players returning soon......if they were able to get rid of him, it has to be soon for cap relief. 



#52 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:30 PM

 

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's not as outlandish as it sounds initially, and it's certainly more likely than someone trading assets for him.

 

I agree with you there.  No-trade clause + negative value = In our sweet dreams.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#53 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:34 PM

 

Think about it again from the viewpoint of a team like Buffalo or Florida though.  They're not making the playoffs and are not even close to contenders. They're number one priority is long-term growth player and development. So why bring in overpaid guy like Sammy who's borderline retired and not known for his leadership?  He will only take away minutes from those whom the team actually wants to develop while (if he actually did provide scoring) distancing them from a lottery pick. Teams like that (whether losing or not) want to create a positive atmosphere and a guy who just got ditched by a cup contender is not going to help with that.

 

Sure, that's a definite possibility.  And perhaps Buffalo is a long shot in that regard.  But Sammy has a history with Florida, had a moderate degree of success with them, and every young team needs veterans around the locker room.  An example would be Vinny Prospal with Columbus.  He was a guy at the tail end of his career who was a successful contributor on a young team and really helped in the leadership department.   

 

Again, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's not out of the ballpark either. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#54 Ekmanc

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:41 PM

Well looks like Tatar is getting sick of waiting at least :P

 

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#55 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:43 PM

Kwame has a greater chance of getting out of jail soon than Sammy does of getting traded with his albatross contract.



#56 kipwinger

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:45 PM

Kwame has a greater chance of getting out of jail soon than Sammy does of getting traded with his albatross contract.

 

Zing.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#57 T.Low

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

I actually do think Edmonton could benefit from his veteran...well, I hesitate to use the term leadership... But they could use a guy who's been there, done that, won that,with some of the best players in the league.
Poll; Who will get out of jail sooner? Kwame, Nyquist, or Tatar?

#58 dat's sick

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:56 PM

There are enough terrible teams with trouble scoring that you'd think one would take a chance on a veteran like Sammy. Philly, Buffalo, Edmonton.. come on, someone take him!

#59 AL g

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:59 PM

Yes, there are several teams that could use a player like Sammy BUT are they willing to use $3 million against their salary cap ?  Teams actually hire "capologists" these days because cap space is like gold.  There are better players they can get for less money. 


Philly doesn't have the cap space to take on Sammy's $3 million salary. 



#60 T.Low

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:17 PM

I am really starting to worry about Holland. If he is this loyal to Sammy, what's it going to be like when Babcock starts losing?

If Babbs keeps Tatar on the bench much longer, I'll be ready for Blashill.





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