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Lineup Crunch: Who's going?


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#61 brett

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

can we has helm glendening and tootoo on same line?



#62 number9

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:44 PM

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen

Tatar - Weiss - Abdelkader

Nyquist - Helm - Cleary

Miller - Andersson - Tootoo

Glendening

 

Here's what the forward line looks like next year (before free agency) assuming they re-sign Tatar, Glendening, and beloved Cleary, and Bert retires, Aflie retires, Eaves is waived, and Sammy hits FA.

 

Even without any FA acquisitions that's a pretty decent line up. And all the prospects will be a year older and closer to jumping up.



#63 matthewdanna

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:53 PM

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen

Tatar - Weiss - Abdelkader

Nyquist - Helm - Cleary

Miller - Andersson - Tootoo

Glendening

 

Here's what the forward line looks like next year (before free agency) assuming they re-sign Tatar, Glendening, and beloved Cleary, and Bert retires, Aflie retires, Eaves is waived, and Sammy hits FA.

 

Even without any FA acquisitions that's a pretty decent line up. And all the prospects will be a year older and closer to jumping up.

 

And with Sammy gone, possibly Bert and Alfie retiring we are going to have a lot of coin to go after someone...

 

Perhaps Vanek? Callahan? 



#64 Crymson

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:26 PM

Here's what the forward line looks like next year (before free agency) assuming they re-sign Tatar, Glendening, and beloved Cleary, and Bert retires, Aflie retires, Eaves is waived, and Sammy hits FA.

 

Even without any FA acquisitions that's a pretty decent line up. And all the prospects will be a year older and closer to jumping up.

 

 

 

If Cleary's current level of play continues, I sincerely doubt he'll be on the team next season. The organization loved Draper, but they likewise told him goodbye when it became clear that his leadership and other positive moral attributes could not compensate for his flagging level of play.


I am really starting to worry about Holland. If he is this loyal to Sammy, what's it going to be like when Babcock starts losing?

 

In what regard is Holland being loyal to Samuelsson? He can't do a darned thing. If Samuelsson doesn't want to be traded, then he can't be traded, and dumping him in the minors will only garner an extra $100K of cap space. He'd have been bought out if not for his injury.


Kwame has a greater chance of getting out of jail soon than Sammy does of getting traded with his albatross contract.

 

It's not an albatross contract. It's one year at an average salary. He's just injury-prone and ineffective; no team would want him anyway.



#65 joesuffP

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:59 PM

Cleary has been fine I swear some of you don't even watch the games and still ***** about Cleary

#66 Crymson

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:31 PM

Cleary has been fine I swear some of you don't even watch the games and still ***** about Cleary

 

Cleary is doing nothing that Tatar could not do more effectively. He tries his best, as ever, but his body is broken.



#67 Dabura

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:44 PM

 

Cleary is doing nothing that Tatar could not do more effectively. He tries his best, as ever, but his body is broken.

 

To be fair, Cleary is much better defensively, and he does still provide a good degree of "grit and such." I am, of course, a big Tatar fan, and I hate that he's not playing - but he is, at present, a smallish, one-dimensional scorer. Not necessarily saying I'd take Cleary over him, mind you. Just sayin'.


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#68 mjtm77

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:47 PM

 

Cleary is doing nothing that Tatar could not do more effectively. He tries his best, as ever, but his body is broken.

Cleary plays fine and you better get use to him cause he is getting a raise. and Tatar and Cleary are completely different players


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#69 T.Low

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:46 AM

 
 
 
If Cleary's current level of play continues, I sincerely doubt he'll be on the team next season. The organization loved Draper, but they likewise told him goodbye when it became clear that his leadership and other positive moral attributes could not compensate for his flagging level of play.

 
In what regard is Holland being loyal to Samuelsson? He can't do a darned thing. If Samuelsson doesn't want to be traded, then he can't be traded, and dumping him in the minors will only garner an extra $100K of cap space. He'd have been bought out if not for his injury.

 
It's not an albatross contract. It's one year at an average salary. He's just injury-prone and ineffective; no team would want him anyway.


Easy there, Turbo, I'm referring to the contract term and ntc.

#70 Crymson

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:54 AM

Easy there, Turbo, I'm referring to the contract term and ntc.

 

That had nothing to do with loyalty. Two years is not a long contract, and the 2012 UFA class was so piss-poor and full of NTCs that any player of moderate ability could demand one.



#71 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 03:00 AM

It's not just this season though, last year Tootoo played less at even strength than every other (regular) forward.  Only Mursak, Helm, and Sheahan had less ES time on ice per game.  He also hardly used him in the playoffs, what was it...a game or two?  This year it's even less.  Now factor in the fact that we're taking more penalties so far this year and his available time on ice is further decreased.  You may be right about each team needing something different, but that doesn't mean the "something different" should be a one dimensional guy who hits.  Maybe the "something different" is a freak offensive d-man like Karlsson, or maybe it's a Holmstrom type net front guy who makes the difference.  Maybe it's a Dustin Byfuglien type "rover".  Maybe all of the above.  But I think it's misleading to suggest that the "something different" on which a Stanley Cup depends (according to you) needs to be a fourth line hitter who plays six or seven minutes a night and only in 5-on-5 situations.  That's giving the guy WAY more credit than he's earned.

Please dont put words in my mouth. I have never stated that Detroit's chances of winning another cup stands or falls with a fourth liner. That is just another debate tactic by people who wants to get rid of fighting and all things physical in the game of hockey. I stated that Detroit has never won a cup without a player(s) with a different skill set, and I think you understand that I dont mean another offensive player like Karlsson. If you have truly followed the Red Wings for as long as you say, you will know that this is not BS. Again, to me Tootoo is much more than a hitting and fighting machine. He draws penalties, he will get the crowd going and add energy to the team but he will also stand up for his teammates. Look, if you do not see the value in the qualities of a guy like Tootoo (that you say you do) then we can continue this discussion forever. You will not convince me that Eaves adds more value to this club than Tootoo with the current lineup and the opposite is true for you.
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#72 BadgerBob

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:49 AM

 

And with Sammy gone, possibly Bert and Alfie retiring we are going to have a lot of coin to go after someone...

 

Perhaps Vanek? Callahan? 

Callahan yes please!



#73 kipwinger

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:36 AM

Please dont put words in my mouth. I have never stated that Detroit's chances of winning another cup stands or falls with a fourth liner. That is just another debate tactic by people who wants to get rid of fighting and all things physical in the game of hockey. I stated that Detroit has never won a cup without a player(s) with a different skill set, and I think you understand that I dont mean another offensive player like Karlsson. If you have truly followed the Red Wings for as long as you say, you will know that this is not BS. Again, to me Tootoo is much more than a hitting and fighting machine. He draws penalties, he will get the crowd going and add energy to the team but he will also stand up for his teammates. Look, if you do not see the value in the qualities of a guy like Tootoo (that you say you do) then we can continue this discussion forever. You will not convince me that Eaves adds more value to this club than Tootoo with the current lineup and the opposite is true for you.

 

Fighting in hockey is stupid, everybody knows my position on it.  There I said it, I feel better.  My opinion on fighting is not why I think Tootoo is the odd man out.  I think that because he makes more than Eaves and plays far, far, far less.  You can make this about my position on fighting if you want, but you still haven't really explained why Tootoo hardly plays if indeed he's so valuable.

 

You're talking about of both sides of your mouth.  You imply that Tootoo brings a unique skill set and that every team that wins the Cup needs at least one guy with a unique skill set.  So far, I can sorta go along with you.  But then you say it's not about his hitting for fighting, which are the only thing he brings that are unique on this team.  He does not play special teams, he's not a defensive whiz, he provides no offense, and he plays less than all other forwards 5-on-5.  Then you say it's about some amorphous intangibles like bringing "energy" and "pumping up the crowd".  But those aren't unique skills.  Big saves, goals, important penalty kills, all "provide energy" and "pump up the crowd".  Even by your standards he fails to bring more intangibles than anyone else...except hitting and fighting, which you say isn't the point.

 

Tootoo hits and fights.  And that's fine, he should play his game.  But he doesn't do anything else of value that someone else doesn't do better...and the Red Wings HARDLY value that.  That's why he's the odd man out.


Edited by kipwinger, 17 October 2013 - 10:51 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#74 bakerbert

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:48 AM

I like TooToo and he is a lot of fun to watch when he is out there.
But for almost 2 mill a year and only 6 minutes of playing time per game, seems like that money could be spent a little more wisely (especially with the cap crunch we are in now).
I will be sad if he leaves but seems to me he is the most logical choice at the moment.
Very interested to see how this all plays out.
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#75 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:54 AM

Fighting in hockey is stupid, everybody knows my position on it.  There I said it, I feel better.  My opinion on fighting is not why I think Tootoo is the odd man out.  I think that because he makes more than Eaves and plays far, far, far less.  You can make this about fighting or whatever if you want, but you still haven't really explained why Tootoo hardly plays if indeed he's so valuable.

Good for you, I had a feeling that's where we were headed. I didnt think I needed to, but you have said it yourself. He plays a limited role on a team that put most emphasis on skill. Doesnt mean he can or should be replaced by anybody and Eaves is not the guy in my opinion.
"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#76 kipwinger

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:00 AM

Good for you, I had a feeling that's where we were headed. I didnt think I needed to, but you have said it yourself. He plays a limited role on a team that put most emphasis on skill. Doesnt mean he can or should be replaced by anybody and Eaves is not the guy in my opinion.

 

So you're not going to address a single thing I said and focus solely on my well documented opposition to fighting eh?  Again, please tell me what he brings to the table that's worth 1.9 million dollars to a cap crunched team?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#77 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:29 AM

So you're not going to address a single thing I said and focus solely on my well documented opposition to fighting eh?  Again, please tell me what he brings to the table that's worth 1.9 million dollars to a cap crunched team?

Read my previous posts again and you will find the answer. This is getting redundant.
"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#78 T.Low

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:37 AM

 
That had nothing to do with loyalty. Two years is not a long contract, and the 2012 UFA class was so piss-poor and full of NTCs that any player of moderate ability could demand one.


I guess he's a hoarder then. Someone from that show needs to come over and clean that place out.

Regardless of the particulars, or the semantics, it was not a good contract. I've been a big Holland defender and Sammy defender, but it's getting ridiculous
. Nobody wanted Samuelsson so why pay him 3 million a year with a no trade clause? Did he not know the salary cap was going down? Did he not know players down on the farm are ripening and getting ready?
Nobody wanted Tootoo so why pay him so much?

Except for the first line, we are playing like crap. We are a one line team with one good PowerPlay unit. It's too bad we are eking out victories because that lulls them into thinking we are playing well enough, Takes any urgency out of the situation.

So tell me, if no one else wanted Sammy, then why 3 million and and NTC, instead of 2 million without an NTC?

Call it what you want, Holland moves like a sloth. The question stands; how bad would it ever have to get before Holland pulled the plug on Babcock?

#79 rick zombo

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:49 AM

Call it what you want, Holland moves like a sloth. The question stands; how bad would it ever have to get before Holland pulled the plug on Babcock?

 

Patience. That would be another way to put it. There's not a more patient GM out there. Sometimes to a fault.

 

Babcock would probably fire himself before Holland had a chance.


Edited by rick zombo, 17 October 2013 - 11:51 AM.

"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#80 kipwinger

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:12 PM

Read my previous posts again and you will find the answer. This is getting redundant.

 

Well I guess that in your previous posts you've failed miserably to justify Tootoo's contract based on "bringing energy" and "pumping up the crowd".  And how could you not?  I mean, with the veritable cornucopia of sound, fact based, information you've provided I can't help but come to the light.  I had no idea that being a hype man and "pumping up the crowd" by "bringing energy" was worth so much in your eyes. 

 

I guess you've won me over.  I'm going to head over to Youtube right now and look up some old Public Enemy videos.  Nobody could "bring energy" and "pump up the crowd" like Flava Flav.

 

Good win dude.  Good win.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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