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stephen weiss


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#141 number9

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:11 PM

I'm basing it on his entire career. Also, I believe we won the Stanley Cup with Filppula centering the second line and went to game seven of the finals with Fil centering the second line.

When Fil had his 66 point season it wasn't because he wasn't playing center, it was because he was playing with linemates who aren't lazy and who can make plays. Correlation =/= Causation.


Weiss has had a more successful career than Fil...

#142 Z and D for the C

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:19 PM

Weiss has had a more successful career than Fil...


Really? Wiess has basically been the Panther's #1 guy forever while Filppula, at absolute best, has been #4 in the depth chart, and more like around #5/6/7 for most of his career. And Weiss has only marginally more PPG than Filppula (.59 vs .53). Filppula also has a Stanley Cup and has never missed the playoffs. If I was a hockey player, I would much rather have Filppula's career over Weiss.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 27 October 2013 - 07:19 PM.

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#143 number9

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:32 PM

Really? Wiess has basically been the Panther's #1 guy forever while Filppula, at absolute best, has been #4 in the depth chart, and more like around #5/6/7 for most of his career. And Weiss has only marginally more PPG than Filppula (.59 vs .53). Filppula also has a Stanley Cup and has never missed the playoffs. If I was a hockey player, I would much rather have Filppula's career over Weiss.


Weiss has scored more and much more consistently. Sure he was a number 1 center, but he was also on arguably the worst team in the league all those years, while Fil has been on a championship caliber team his entire career.

Funny how you talk about Fil and his success as a 2nd line center here, and now suddenly he's in a 6th and 7th role

#144 Z and D for the C

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:24 PM

Sure he was a number 1 center, but he was also on arguably the worst team in the league all those years, while Fil has been on a championship caliber team his entire career.


If the only thing that matters for a player's production is whether or not he's on a championship caliber team, then what separates the good teams from the bad teams? The fact is he was on the top of the depth chart, with the most TOI likely of their forwards, and he still didn't produce that much. If your role is reduced, you will produce less. It's simple and it's obvious.

And yes, Filppula has never been nearly as high on the depth chart as Weiss. Just because he is the #2 center doesn't make him #2 on the depth chart. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen have always been higher up than Filppula. That places him at #4 at best. If he was here this year, he would be 5th behind Alfreddson. When Hudler was here, he was behind Hudler. When Hossa was here, Filppula wasn't even in the top 6 for most of the year. He has never been high on the depth chart, period. Not that I would agree with his placment, but that is where the management has placed him.

If you argue that place on the depth chart has nothing to do with production, you're a fool. Simple as. Weiss has played with much better linemates over his career as well. And again, has only marginally better stats to show for it.

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#145 number9

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:48 PM

If the only thing that matters for a player's production is whether or not he's on a championship caliber team, then what separates the good teams from the bad teams? The fact is he was on the top of the depth chart, with the most TOI likely of their forwards, and he still didn't produce that much. If your role is reduced, you will produce less. It's simple and it's obvious.

And yes, Filppula has never been nearly as high on the depth chart as Weiss. Just because he is the #2 center doesn't make him #2 on the depth chart. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen have always been higher up than Filppula. That places him at #4 at best. If he was here this year, he would be 5th behind Alfreddson. When Hudler was here, he was behind Hudler. When Hossa was here, Filppula wasn't even in the top 6 for most of the year. He has never been high on the depth chart, period. Not that I would agree with his placment, but that is where the management has placed him.

If you argue that place on the depth chart has nothing to do with production, you're a fool. Simple as. Weiss has played with much better linemates over his career as well. And again, has only marginally better stats to show for it.

I'm not arguing that. I'm saying Weiss was the #1 center on a terrible team and Filppula was the #2/#3 center on one of the best teams. Weiss is inflated bc of his TOI and deflated because the team around him was awful. Fil is inflated bc the team around him was awesome and deflated bc he played less of role on the team bc of that. In my book it kind of evens out. I give Weiss the edge however. Proven he's capable on a top line. Experienced captain. Scores more. Scores consistently.

 

Why Weiss is cold now and Fil is hot now we don't know. Could be a million different reasons or just plain luck. Hudler is out scoring most of the league right now and Mike Smith has more goals than Giroux. Saying we should have kept Fil over Weiss this early is wayyyy too soon IMO.



#146 Richdg

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:49 PM

A couple of things...

1. most expected a slower start for Weiss while he adjusts to the new team, system, and line mates.

2. is he 100% recovered from his wrist injury?

3. Weiss is playing with worse linemates here than what he had in Florida. Their top line was/is pretty good were as our second sucks. Versteeg is better than everyone we have on lines 2-4.



#147 Son of a Wing

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:54 PM

If the only thing that matters for a player's production is whether or not he's on a championship caliber team, then what separates the good teams from the bad teams? The fact is he was on the top of the depth chart, with the most TOI likely of their forwards, and he still didn't produce that much. If your role is reduced, you will produce less. It's simple and it's obvious.

And yes, Filppula has never been nearly as high on the depth chart as Weiss. Just because he is the #2 center doesn't make him #2 on the depth chart. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen have always been higher up than Filppula. That places him at #4 at best. If he was here this year, he would be 5th behind Alfreddson. When Hudler was here, he was behind Hudler. When Hossa was here, Filppula wasn't even in the top 6 for most of the year. He has never been high on the depth chart, period. Not that I would agree with his placment, but that is where the management has placed him.

If you argue that place on the depth chart has nothing to do with production, you're a fool. Simple as. Weiss has played with much better linemates over his career as well. And again, has only marginally better stats to show for it.

 

Your role on the team is indicative of your performance.  Not the other way around.

 

He failed to move up the depth chart because he failed to provide offence on a consistent basis.


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#148 Ekmanc

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:14 PM

Well I for one am honestly worried about Weiss, I have never been particularly impressed with him and I wonder if he will ever be the 2nd center that we all hope for.



#149 number9

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:20 PM

A couple of things...

1. most expected a slower start for Weiss while he adjusts to the new team, system, and line mates.

2. is he 100% recovered from his wrist injury?

3. Weiss is playing with worse linemates here than what he had in Florida. Their top line was/is pretty good were as our second sucks. Versteeg is better than everyone we have on lines 2-4.

1. Then why is Fil off to a hot start? Magically doesn't have to adjust to a new team, system, line mates?
3. Disagree entirely. Franzen and Alfie > Fleischmann Versteeg



#150 wings87

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:43 PM

Here's a novel idea change the system, because with this team the puck possession system just doesn't work. The team just doesn't have the players to rely on possessing the puck for long stretches, time to admit that fact and adapt. No more time for denial all denial gets you is run into the ground by subpar injured teams like the rangers.

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#151 T.Low

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:22 AM

Here's a novel idea change the system, because with this team the puck possession system just doesn't work. The team just doesn't have the players to rely on possessing the puck for long stretches, time to admit that fact and adapt. No more time for denial all denial gets you is run into the ground by subpar injured teams like the rangers.

 

 

You mean we still play puck possession?  Hmm, didn't recognize it...



#152 jimmyemeryhunter

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:39 AM

So 95% of lgwers have already given up on weiss.

#153 Euro_Twins

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:46 AM

So 95% of lgwers have already given up on weiss.


Since game 1. I have given up on arguing with them. Filpulla was god NO ONE wanted him gone... Whatever.

#154 redhasek2013

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:04 AM

http://youtu.be/yzOklYx2-EI?t=3m23s

Brett Hull couldn't have said it better about are 2013-2014 (2003) team lol. Useless is a good word to start with. 


Edited by redhasek2013, 28 October 2013 - 07:13 AM.


#155 VM1138

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:03 AM

Only Red Wings fans would bitterly argue Filppula vs. Weiss. And maybe Toronto fans.

Fact is, everyone's offense has disappeared so I wouldn't think Flip would he doing well, wither had he stayed.

Flip was never a bad player. He was never dynamic though, never controlled the pace on the ice, rarely made great things happen, and was terrified of shooting. I'm glad he is succeeding now but I don't fool myself into thinking things would be different had he stayed.

1. Then why is Fil off to a hot start? Magically doesn't have to adjust to a new team, system, line mates?

Maybe not getting re-signed by Holland lit a fire under his butt? Flip has way more to prove than Weiss does. Also, playing on a team with Stamkos and other shooters might motivate him. One things is for sure, except for maybe Zetterberg, the Wings don't have highly effective and consistent shooters. Pavs could be but he focuses on pkaymaking.
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#156 wings87

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:07 PM

 

 

You mean we still play puck possession?  Hmm, didn't recognize it...

That's the problem they still think the're a puck possession team. 


"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#157 frankgrimes

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

I really don't understand the Weiss versus Filps debate, Filps is gone and I am happy that he is doing well but both of these guys aren't the answer to the DetroitRedWings problems. You built from the net out (which is set with a great Howard/Gustavsson duo), the defense (work in progress to put it friendly..) and then the forwards (2 stars other than that meh meh meh). Needs are a pure goalscorer and a powerplay quarterback but lets be honest Kenny will not get these guys if he isn't willing to take some gambles. I think Chris Letang and Nicklas - sadly not the perfect human - kronwall would be a very good first pairing, Malkins contract is up after this season so the Pens are looking at a 9 m caphit soon and Letang comes at a fair 7,25 m caphit also Phaneuf will be available this year. The question to me still remains, what are the strong skills in Weiss game? if he is a "pure" playmaker you need to provide him with a goalscorer simple as that.

Edited by frankgrimes, 28 October 2013 - 03:30 PM.

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#158 Playmaker

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:41 PM

Since game 1. I have given up on arguing with them. Filpulla was god NO ONE wanted him gone... Whatever.

I'm not sure which thread you're reading.   Weiss has struggled, that's a fact.  Instead just saying as much, all the excuses come....the "new system", playing a different role, blah blah blah.  I'm somewhat indifferent about Filppula, but the race to find the best excuse for Weiss' struggles are laughable. 



#159 wings87

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

Best game of the year for Weiss vs Canucks. Still has to get better in certain spots but looked great tonight.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#160 Echolalia

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:18 AM

Best game of the year for Weiss vs Canucks. Still has to get better in certain spots but looked great tonight.

You can tell that he's slowly starting to get more comfortable and get his confidence out there. When he starts hanging onto the puck instead of being so quick to pass it on, the points will start racking up.





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