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Why Do They Trust The Youngsters?


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#1 pucktividi

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:14 PM

Stevie,Jim Nill,MacLean,McLellan were the part of the Wings system and they all have much more faith in youngsters than Ken and Babs.That's a really  head scretching question.

 

I mean Tampy Bay roster from tonight's game was full of players that were beaten by Grand Rapids for the Calder.

 

Note:Don't want to say they're better coaches/GM's,just wondering...



#2 number9

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:22 PM

Stevie,Jim Nill,MacLean,McLellan were the part of the Wings system and they all have much more faith in youngsters than Ken and Babs.That's a really  head scretching question.
 
I mean Tampy Bay roster from tonight's game was full of players that were beaten by Grand Rapids for the Calder.
 
Note:Don't want to say they're better coaches/GM's,just wondering...


Straight up Babs and holland prefer experienced vets to youngsters. That much is clear.

#3 Echolalia

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:42 PM

I think it mostly comes down to familiarity.  Babs and Holland are familiar with the vets and what they bring to the team.  Additionally, the vets are familiar with the Wings' system, their role, and how the game is played at the NHL level.  Skill can get you to the NHL, but experience definitely goes a long way as well.  We see it with Tatar now.  Its clear he is teeming with skill, based on his AHL experience, as well as his play in the NHL.  At the same time, now that he's up here, he's also turning the puck over much more, getting closed on much quicker, and he is being read more carefully at this stage.  He's getting better at responding to that, actually at a pretty quick rate.  His first game this year IMO was terrible.  His second was much better.  His third average, and his most recent game I think was his best.  Generally he is trending up.  Smith his going through the same transition, albeit more slowly (as per tradition with Red Wing defensmen).

Anyway, playoffs are expected around these parts, and I have to imagine its more comforting for the Wings' brass to shoot for the playoffs with a roster full of players who have repeatedly accomplished this feat, and slowly infuse the aging roster with youth at a very controlled rate.  That's part of what made last year so exciting and nerve-wracking.  The Wings had no choice but to turn to several GR callups and nobody knew what to expect, but by the hair of their teeth they made it into the playoffs, and I think Babs' stellar coaching really helped the team take off and get to game seven of the second round before bowing out.



#4 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:35 PM

Straight up Babs and holland prefer experienced vets to youngsters. That much is clear.

 

The irony is that whenever he "kicks the tires" on a trade deal, the other team is always asking too high a price involving prospects.  So Holland clearly values the Wing's prospects, just not enough to actually play them.



#5 Richdg

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:45 PM

playing prospects is based on several things of course. do you have a team that is capable of competing for the SC? if so, then you take a far more cautious approach. if you are feeding at the bottom of the league then what do you have to lose? nothing. Play the cheap young guys. But it is a mixed bag. TB is ahead of us, sens behind us. Sharks lead their conference but the stars are bringing up the rear. Just young is not a key to success.



#6 greenrebellion

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:55 PM

I think it mostly comes down to familiarity.  Babs and Holland are familiar with the vets and what they bring to the team.  Additionally, the vets are familiar with the Wings' system, their role, and how the game is played at the NHL level.  Skill can get you to the NHL, but experience definitely goes a long way as well.  We see it with Tatar now.  Its clear he is teeming with skill, based on his AHL experience, as well as his play in the NHL.  At the same time, now that he's up here, he's also turning the puck over much more, getting closed on much quicker, and he is being read more carefully at this stage.  He's getting better at responding to that, actually at a pretty quick rate.  His first game this year IMO was terrible.  His second was much better.  His third average, and his most recent game I think was his best.  Generally he is trending up.  Smith his going through the same transition, albeit more slowly (as per tradition with Red Wing defensmen).

Anyway, playoffs are expected around these parts, and I have to imagine its more comforting for the Wings' brass to shoot for the playoffs with a roster full of players who have repeatedly accomplished this feat, and slowly infuse the aging roster with youth at a very controlled rate.  That's part of what made last year so exciting and nerve-wracking.  The Wings had no choice but to turn to several GR callups and nobody knew what to expect, but by the hair of their teeth they made it into the playoffs, and I think Babs' stellar coaching really helped the team take off and get to game seven of the second round before bowing out.

 

This is a good post, and I think the bolded part plays a very big role in how Holland/Babcock manage the roster.



#7 CMatt89

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:01 PM

The way I feel is, we all as humans have way too much to think about as it is. Everyday stress of life is the heaviest weight we can endure. Let the coaches coach, and the players play. Enjoy the sport. Pick up an xbox or PS3 if you want to be the coach, GM, and players. As a fan, I think we've all lost our vision. People fighting in the stands, uneducated fans lusting for the violence in the sport, sports radio creating unnecessary drama, and every single fan believing that they have the correct formula for success and everyone else is wrong. This is not a social sport, goals aren't scored on twitter or LGW. The spectacle that has evolved from physical sport has single handedly bloated the egos and imaginations of the people that buy into it. Who cares who suits up, they're all Red Wings. If we never win again, that's okay too, appreciate it for what it is; hockey, a sport. You mention all of these GM's and coaches that started in the Wings organization, now moved on to be in charge. They're young coaches and gm's making young decisions. When they start winning cups..... when. Why should Ken Holland take chances on players that haven't played? Now they're going to work even more hard (if they have they right attitude)  to make it and the payoff will be much higher for everyone thats emotionally attached. Low risk, high reward. 



#8 Son of a Wing

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:33 PM

The way I feel is, we all as humans have way too much to think about as it is. Everyday stress of life is the heaviest weight we can endure. Let the coaches coach, and the players play. Enjoy the sport. Pick up an xbox or PS3 if you want to be the coach, GM, and players. As a fan, I think we've all lost our vision. People fighting in the stands, uneducated fans lusting for the violence in the sport, sports radio creating unnecessary drama, and every single fan believing that they have the correct formula for success and everyone else is wrong. This is not a social sport, goals aren't scored on twitter or LGW. The spectacle that has evolved from physical sport has single handedly bloated the egos and imaginations of the people that buy into it. Who cares who suits up, they're all Red Wings. If we never win again, that's okay too, appreciate it for what it is; hockey, a sport. You mention all of these GM's and coaches that started in the Wings organization, now moved on to be in charge. They're young coaches and gm's making young decisions. When they start winning cups..... when. Why should Ken Holland take chances on players that haven't played? Now they're going to work even more hard (if they have they right attitude)  to make it and the payoff will be much higher for everyone thats emotionally attached. Low risk, high reward. 

 

"We all as humans..."?? Sounds like a the beginning of a first year philosophy paper lol  

 

"Everyday stress of life is the heaviest weight we can endure"   What the hell are you talking about?

 

As far as the rest of the gibberish is concerned you seem to miss a couple important things.  

 

For a lot of people, probably most, sports is a release from "day to day" life. It doesn't had to the stress. It's entertainment lol

 

Also a supportive fan has a right to be a critic. 


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#9 CMatt89

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:21 AM

 

"We all as humans..."?? Sounds like a the beginning of a first year philosophy paper lol  

 

"Everyday stress of life is the heaviest weight we can endure"   What the hell are you talking about?

 

As far as the rest of the gibberish is concerned you seem to miss a couple important things.  

 

For a lot of people, probably most, sports is a release from "day to day" life. It doesn't had to the stress. It's entertainment lol

 

Also a supportive fan has a right to be a critic. 

 

That's the issue, living too vicariously through these athletes. Remember they are real people too. Misplaced emotion, too much Red not enough White. What I'm getting at is, the Red Wings organization has a very clear strategy. Why are we gathering up negative and scattered thoughts because we disagree with who is playing? We as fans should be coming together to UNCONDITIONALLY support and motivate the team we love. That's our role as fans. We aren't the gm, the coach, or the players. We are the supporters. The followers. The fans. Video games and fantasy sports are not the real thing, so why are we taking our fantasy and video game mentalities and forcing them on, and corrupting our views of the real thing? The critic critiques, the fans support. Its one thing to show concern, but really, it's none of our concern..

 

Seems like the more uneducated the fans get about the sport, the more they buy into the s*** that doesn't matter.


Edited by CMatt89, 28 October 2013 - 12:41 AM.


#10 T.Low

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:08 AM

Tatar, Butterfield winner at the Calder Cup, got off one SOG against the lowly Rangers.



#11 Dabura

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:16 AM

Tatar, Butterfield winner at the Calder Cup, got off one SOG against the lowly Rangers.

 

And he's probably been on of our better players of late. Point being, shot counts don't tell the whole tale. Another example: Franzen had, what, seven? But was he especially visible? Was he seven times the contributor Tatar was? Y'see what I'm saying? (Not trying to be condescending or anything, it's just that it's extremely early in the morning here and I'm not sure anything I'm saying makes a lick of sense.) ("A lick of sense"? Is that even a thing?)

 

As for the topic - IMHO, it's just who they are. But that's kind of a truism cop-out. So:

 

- They're sorta old-fashioned, probably a bit more conservative than progressive in the way they think about and do things. They believe in The Red Wing Way, and all it entails and encompasses (have to earn your place, work yourself up the totem pole; have to conduct yourself in an ultra-mature way - on and off the ice; defensive ability is a must for forwards, etc.) They like familiarity. They generally prefer the devil they know over the one they don't. They believe in loyalty. And so on and so forth.

 

- The Detroit Red Wings = arguably the most successful sports franchise of the past twenty years. The veteran love has been a big part of our success since the mid-90s, so why - they ask - overhaul the overwhelmingly winning formula, even if times have changed (and, for the record, times have changed)? Over-ripening FTW, they say.

 

- They can afford to play lots of old guys. Some of that's to do with our puck-possession system, wherein age isn't as big as it is in a more aggressive dump-and-chase system. Some of it's to do with the Red Wings Way, and the fact that everyone buys in. Some of it's probably to do with stuff I can't think of right now because, again, it's early. This is all in contrast to teams which very seriously rely on youth to carry them. We're getting there (see: our blue line). But I think as long as Holland and Babcock are in charge, we'll have a largely veteran lineup. Because it's who they are.


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#12 VM1138

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:49 AM

Holland isn't anti-youth. The only player who may have been sidelines unfairly in favor of vets is Tatar. Holland re-signed Cleary for his playoff contributions and because Babs trusts Cleary. Other than him keeping Nyquist down, thus far we play Smith, Oullet, Lashoff, Tatar, Anderson. That's plenty of youth.

Having veterans is not the problem. Having ineffective veterans and refusing to use them in reduced roles is the problem. Remember, having vets worked well in 02, 07, 08 and 09.

Also, they think long-term. If a formula works, a few games or even years can't make them deviate. 2009 was a pretty big success even without a cup, 2010 and 2011 were injury aberrations, 2012 sucked but we still made it to the second round, and 2013 was short, injury-riddled and we almost beat the eventual Cup champs.

With that sample I can see why long-term they might be reluctant to undergo radical philosophy changes.

That being said, it doesn't seem like Holland or Babcock have the "win now" mentality anymore. They are as complacent as the players, always thinking about tomorrow, next season, waiting to see how things play out.

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#13 T.Low

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:43 AM

Generally speaking, it's not so much a case of having a lot of trust in the youngsters. It's more that their veterans haven't taken them anywhere so there's no proven track record to adhere to.

#14 Richdg

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:34 PM

One of the risks/problems with youth is, they tend to be very weak defensively. How many times have we all heard 'defense wins championships"? Hundreds of times in every sport. Well, that is because it is true. yes winning a game 1-0 can be boring. but it is better than losing a game 7-6. Look at the Aves and Oilers right now. Both are filled with top level young talent. one-the Aves are winning and the Oilers are sucking big time. Why? The Aves are playing d.

D is the reason why Cleary was brought back. Has a lot to do with Alfie being here. Also explains why Tatar sat the first part of the season. It has been report that is why Weiss is struggling-he was told to focus on D first and let the O come as it may.

Those of us old enough to remember, think back to the late 80's and early 90's. The RW's were filled with top flight young talent, but we didn't win anything. it wasn't until the team 1. learned to play D and 2. matured, that we finally started to win.



#15 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

Stevie,Jim Nill,MacLean,McLellan were the part of the Wings system and they all have much more faith in youngsters than Ken and Babs.That's a really  head scretching question.

 

I mean Tampy Bay roster from tonight's game was full of players that were beaten by Grand Rapids for the Calder.

 

Note:Don't want to say they're better coaches/GM's,just wondering...

And they have Filppula looking comfortable in Tampa and playing great hockey.


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#16 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:44 PM

 

That's the issue, living too vicariously through these athletes. Remember they are real people too. Misplaced emotion, too much Red not enough White. What I'm getting at is, the Red Wings organization has a very clear strategy. Why are we gathering up negative and scattered thoughts because we disagree with who is playing? We as fans should be coming together to UNCONDITIONALLY support and motivate the team we love. That's our role as fans. We aren't the gm, the coach, or the players. We are the supporters. The followers. The fans. Video games and fantasy sports are not the real thing, so why are we taking our fantasy and video game mentalities and forcing them on, and corrupting our views of the real thing? The critic critiques, the fans support. Its one thing to show concern, but really, it's none of our concern..

 

Seems like the more uneducated the fans get about the sport, the more they buy into the s*** that doesn't matter.

 

I cannot stress how much I disagree with this. Who are you to tell other fans how to cheer, support, or follow their favorite team? To use the words from your previous post, "we as humans" need to stay the heck out of other people's business and let them live their own lives.

 

Go Wings! I'll root for them however I like. Feel free to do the same.



#17 Mckinley25

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:52 PM

 
I cannot stress how much I disagree with this. Who are you to tell other fans how to cheer, support, or follow their favorite team? To use the words from your previous post, "we as humans" need to stay the heck out of other people's business and let them live their own lives.
 
Go Wings! I'll root for them however I like. Feel free to do the same.


It is just hockey, people are free to be as passionate or flippant about their entertainment choices as they please.

#18 frankgrimes

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:00 PM

 
That's the issue, living too vicariously through these athletes. Remember they are real people too. Misplaced emotion, too much Red not enough White. What I'm getting at is, the Red Wings organization has a very clear strategy. Why are we gathering up negative and scattered thoughts because we disagree with who is playing? We as fans should be coming together to UNCONDITIONALLY support and motivate the team we love. That's our role as fans. We aren't the gm, the coach, or the players. We are the supporters. The followers. The fans. Video games and fantasy sports are not the real thing, so why are we taking our fantasy and video game mentalities and forcing them on, and corrupting our views of the real thing? The critic critiques, the fans support. Its one thing to show concern, but really, it's none of our concern..
 
Seems like the more uneducated the fans get about the sport, the more they buy into the s*** that doesn't matter.

What the? I'm an adult so I can speak for myself thanks. It's not like anything being discussed on the internet is going to influence the front-office. As a fan I want the DetroitRedWings go contend for the Stanley Cup annually and sorry but 2x second round 1x first round and another 2 round exit are not pointing into the this direction, so why bent back or add over the hill or injury prone players? I can think for myself and yes I WILL criticize that, especially when one of the reasons this team even made the playoffs is playing in the AHL..

Being a fan doesn't mean I have to act like a mindless zombie or yes-man...

Edited by frankgrimes, 28 October 2013 - 08:01 PM.

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#19 pucktividi

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:08 PM

The vets worked well for us in past,but also remembered young Nick,Pavs,Z,Helm,Ericsson stepping up in the Playoffs as well.The contribution of the young players is always a bit underrated here if you ask me.

 

We were winning games in the Playoffs last season with Bert and Sammy in the press box,but they have an advatage over young players over and over again.Kinda crazy decision from Babs and Ken though.



#20 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:04 AM

From here on out let's keep the conversation on topic and not about what is the appropriate way to be a fan.

 

Thanks.







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