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These aren't the Vets you are looking for...


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#1 LAWings

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:06 AM

In several forums and threads in the Wings universe, I continue to read the 'Wings trust vets' mantra, it repeats blindly and continuously like a broken record.  But are we really comparing the vets of today's Wings with the vets of past?  When looking at today's vets of Bert, Sammy, Cleary, Weiss... are they the same caliber of Hossa, Robitaille and Hull, Larionov, Holmstrom?  Just because someone has a plethora of experience doesn't mean they are best suited for the job.  Our vets of Bert, Sammy, Cleary, Weiss are spare parts picked up from the junk yard.  I have firmly believed from day one that Bertuzzi is an albatross to the organization, and the hockey gods will never let us win the Cup for his neck breaking shenanigans, for the same reason the hockey gods have not forgiven Montreal for the Rocket dropping the Cup on the ice during their last celebration (skip to :50 seconds).    The hockey gods do not forget.

 

Is comparing the veteran experience of our Grind Line, which had years of chemistry and Stanley Cups together, the same as comparing a line of Bert, Sammy, Weiss, Cleary, and saying these vets get it done?  Sure a couple of them were on the Cup winning team... 5 years ago when they still had some step to them, but they were 3rd line players to start with.  They are simply not the vets we are looking for, and the love affair Holland has with Bert and Cleary is mind boggling.

 

When I look at the previous rosters, our defense corps consisted of 4 defenseman that could all one time the puck (Lids, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall), now we only have one.  We have only one scoring defensman that at one time was our 2nd line enforcer, and we have zero ability to one time a shot from the blue line.  But that's a topic for another thread.

 

No matter how much Holland and Babs want to believe, or how hard the close their eyes and wish it so, or how much cheese they throw our way...the rag tag bunch of retreads Holland continues to assemble aren't the vets we're looking for.

 

So when I hear that line of 'Red Wings rely on Vets', ...this is what comes to mind.

 

Top-15-NHL-Teams-of-All-Time-9.jpg

 

and not this:

 

tumblr_m32419qqRp1r129wbo1_400.jpg

 

 

 

 



#2 Son of a Wing

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:34 AM

2 words

 

SALARY CAP

 

You're comparing pre-cap teams to post-cap teams. It's not fair.

 

It's not like there's a plethora of top 6 forwards or top 4 defencemen we can just go buy up like in the past.

 

Hating on Sammy and Cleary is just too easy. Bertuzzi deserves to be on this team. Leave Weiss out of it.


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#3 Dabura

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:28 AM

To be fair, if Holland could sign a Hull and a Shanahan and a Fedorov and an Yzerman and a Lidstrom and a Rafalski and a Larionov and a Robitaille and a Hasek and a Chelios, he would. (He's done it before, hasn't he?)

 

But, like Son of a Wing said, this is the salary cap era. We're lucky just to have a Datsyuk and a Zetterberg and a Kronwall and a Howard. And I'll add to that the '02-esque signing of a quality vet named Daniel Alfredsson, who, forgetting the first four games, has been nothing but solid for us so far.

 

Does that mean I wouldn't like to see better veterans than the likes of Cleary and Samuelsson? No. I think a guy like Vinny Prospal, who's always found a way to score, might've been - and might still  be! - a nice add. But I don't know what his demands would be in the way of coin and term. And we can't even get Nyquist into the lineup, so...yeah. No Prospal, or anyone.

 

Does it mean I wouldn't love a lineup like the Pens and Blackhawks have? No. But they got to where they are by sucking mercilessly for a long time. We can barely stomach four straight games of suck. I can only imagine what multiple consecutive seasons of it would do to us.

 

At the end of the day, I want our team to get younger. So, to me, this is all sorta moot.


Edited by Dabura, 29 October 2013 - 10:17 AM.

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#4 Richdg

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:06 AM

To be fair, if Holland could sign a Hull and a Shanahan and a Fedorov and an Yzerman and a Lidstrom and a Rafalski and a Larionov and a Robitaille and a Hasek and a Chelios, he would. (He's done it before, hasn't he?)

 

But, like Son of a Wing said, this is the salary cap era. We're lucky just to have a Datsyuk and a Zetterberg and a Kronwall and a Howard. And I'll add to that the '02-esque signing of a quality vet named Daniel Alfredsson, who, forgetting the first four games, has been nothing but solid for us so far.

 

Does that mean I wouldn't like to see better veterans than the likes of Cleary and Samuelsson? No. I think a guy like Vinny Prospal, who's always found a way to score, might've been - and might still  be! - a nice add. But I don't know what his demands would be in the way of coin and term. And we can't even get Nyquist into the lineup, so...yeah. No Prospal, or anyone.

 

Does it mean I wouldn't love a lineup like the Pens and Blackhawks have? No. But they got to where they are by sucking mercilessly for a long time. We can barely stomach four straight games of suck. I can only imagine what multiple consecutive seasons of it would do to us.

 

At the end of the day, I want out team to get younger. So, to me, this is all sorta moot.

Thing is, some of those guys you mentioned could step on the ice right now and be better than some of our current waste. anyone not think Federov is a better player today than Sammy? or Shanny still better than Cleary? I do. Those guys started with a much higher talent level than Sammy/Cleary.



#5 ben_usmc

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:29 AM

Broke Back Bert is the only one of the older Babcock crushes that is actually some what producing on the ice. 


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#6 LeftWinger

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:29 PM

It's all ok, next off season Sammy, Bert and Cleary will all be gone since their contracts are up... :ninja:

 

I truly hope so.  Of course I hoped that Sammy could have been able to get bought out this year.  Which considering that he couldn't is a good thing...why? So Holland can buyout Franzen next off season!

 

Wish list for subtractions next summer: Bert, Sammy and Cleary leave and Franzen gets the bouyout...THEN maybe Holland can get that "OTHER" type of vet that we have been able to rely upon in the past...


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#7 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:40 PM

droids.JPG


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#8 Dabura

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:40 PM

Also, we forget - there've been some really, really bad quality-veteran signings in the past, e.g. Hatcher, Modano. Just because he's good and a veteran (as opposed to, say, Sammy, who's bad and a veteran) doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work out for us.

 

Truism, I know. But I felt like sharing.


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#9 Richdg

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:49 PM

The idea of signing a vet for "one last chance" at a cup is a good idea. But you can't have a whole dang team of those guys. if you are a young team like the Oilers or Aves, going out and bringing in 1 or 2 guys like a Bertuzzi and Alfie is a great idea. provides you with leadership, some scoring or grit, and someone who has been there and done that. But we are not a young talented team needing leadership. Hell if anything we have to much veteran leadership. We need the young talent. Ok we need middle age talent-hockey age not real age......



#10 frankgrimes

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:56 PM

Someone mentioned the salary cap, who's fault is it really? This league is built around the O 6 teams not NONE of them stood up against the lockout BS. The NHLPA is also to blame here, they should have just decertified and after that this DetroitRedWings edition would have been one to remember for years to come I am 100 % certain the best owner in all ofs ports would have given Kenny a blank check to ice an incredible roster, just to show the Tankuins and Suckhawks how to built a roster on the fly.

 

BUT it's not like veterans aren't getting dealt anymore, what about Derek Roy, Jason Pominville, Douglas Murray....? These guys were available at the tdl are they elite? No, but still better than a lot of the veterans on this team.


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#11 LeftWinger

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:15 PM

...Hatcher and Modano? Bad signings? Those were awesome signings, especially Hatcher.  It's not Holland's fault that they both had season long injuries and just couldn't recover for the playoffs.  If it weren't for the lockout and eventual salary cap in 2005, Hatcher would have finish his contract here. It was just the rotten luck of injuries that plagued those two signings, not that they were bad signings at all.  If Hull and Robitaille would have had injuries similar, would they had been bad signings too?

 

Bad signings were Cleary, Sammy (although he too had a season long injury, but has yet to prove good this season) and like my opinion or not, Franzen was a bad signing, not for the cap hit, but for the term.  He has done nothing but get worse and worse since.  Sure he may put up 20 goals or so, but with the potential he was signed for, he has been an utter disappointment...looking back, Holland probably wished he had signed him for more cap hit, FAR less years... Even the Bertuzzi signing wasn't as bad because of injury, but really, he was injured when we traded for him and really has never been healthy, so ya, each time we signed him was a bad move IMO.


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#12 Dabura

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:21 PM

Suckhawks

 

+1


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#13 Dabura

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:30 PM

...Hatcher and Modano? Bad signings? Those were awesome signings, especially Hatcher.  It's not Holland's fault that they both had season long injuries and just couldn't recover for the playoffs.  If it weren't for the lockout and eventual salary cap in 2005, Hatcher would have finish his contract here. It was just the rotten luck of injuries that plagued those two signings, not that they were bad signings at all.  If Hull and Robitaille would have had injuries similar, would they had been bad signings too?

 

Yeah, I was thinking those probably aren't the best examples - but they do at least speak to the "crapshoot" (or just simple risk) element of any signing, even with a sure-thing slam-dunk like Derian Hatcher. Or maybe my point was sort of that we're mad at Sammy for his injury problems and for missing a (half-)season, and at Cleary because his body is being held togethr with duct tape, but things could be just as s***ty with a better talent like, e.g. Derian Hatcher. I dunno. Sometimes my brain farts.


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#14 LAWings

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

I'd like to clarfiy a couple things, as the several comments suggested I can't compare past to present vets...which was actually my point.  The Wings can't continue to say we value veteran leadership because it means something totally different then the veteran leadership we use to have.  When we had 4 or 5 500 goal scorers on one team, several Cups, many individual trophies (accumulated while on other teams) how can we look at our vets and think these guys will take us to the promised land?  They don't have the same credentials, Bertuzzi is a has been, one 20 goal season in 10 years...  At least Franzen puts up double the points... oh and Franzen can be traded anytime, he does not have a NTC, at $3.9 million a year... he's a steal by any NHL standard (yeah, he's frustrating to watch, but averages 28 goals a season...so Kenny can get plenty for him)

 

Salary Cap?  We are the highest spending team this year.  We are spending the same amount as the 2002 Cup team, ok you can factor inflation and other costs, and say it's not the same, but we're spending $64 million, more then anyone else, and why are we not destroying everyone?  Because we've put too much into aging vets that as individuals have not accomplished anything like the vets of yesteryear... and that's why we can't compare them, and why we need a different frame of mind from Holland and Co. when they look at this so called 'Veteran Leadership' of Bert, Sammy, Cleary, Weiss...

 

I just don't understand this unadultered love affair with these guys.  At the end of the day tho, I'm still behind this team, no matter what (even with Todd 'the Albatross' Bertuzzi) been there since they sucked so bad you almost didn't want to tell anyone. :P



#15 Son of a Wing

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

The Wings can't continue to say we value veteran leadership because it means something totally different then the veteran leadership we use to have.  

 

Don't understand the thought process here at all.  So because they're not hall-of-famers they can't have leadership skills, maturity and other positive "veteran qualities" younger players can learn from?

 

Salary Cap?  We are the highest spending team this year.  We are spending the same amount as the 2002 Cup team, ok you can factor inflation and other costs, and say it's not the same, but we're spending $64 million, more then anyone else, and why are we not destroying everyone?  

 

Average league payroll has increased by 50%. If you don't understand how that and the cap level the playing field....well I think it's obvious. 

 

Because we've put too much into aging vets that as individuals have not accomplished anything like the vets of yesteryear... and that's why we can't compare them, and why we need a different frame of mind from Holland and Co. when they look at this so called 'Veteran Leadership' of Bert, Sammy, Cleary, Weiss...

 

I'd love to hear all the great players that are available to replace them. You seem to be content ranting yet not providing any viable solution or alternative.

 

I have to ask....where have you been for the last 10 years? It's as if this is the first time you've paid attention to the wings since the cap was introduced and are all of a sudden shocked by the state of affairs.


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#16 Richdg

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:31 PM

Was just watching 42 year Jagr score a breakaway short handed goal. Just saying.....



#17 Nev

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:51 AM

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but Jagr only cares about the money!


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#18 Dabura

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:42 AM

Mo' parity, mo' problems.


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#19 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:12 AM

In all fairness Fetisov, Chelios and Larionov were rather awful before they finally retired.
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#20 Dabura

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:49 AM

In all fairness Fetisov, Chelios and Larionov were rather awful before they finally retired.

 

What's to stop Chris Chelios from punching you in the face?


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