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#121 Playmaker

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:28 PM

Declining Kozlov?  He had four 70 point seasons after he left Detroit, just two whilst he was a Wing.

 

But whatever, I think trading for arguably the greatest goaltender of all time classes as blockbuster.

I just think of a blockbuster trade as involving multiple players and being somewhat of a risk on both sides.  To me, pulling the trigger on the Hasek for Kozlov deal was more of a no brainer.  Buffalo wanted to get rid of the salary and Detroit had no problem spending money.  Detroit was somewhat set with their top 6 and getting rid of Kozlov allowed them to sign Hull and Robitaille.   Kozlov did end up finishing strong with Atlanta, but he had pretty much reached his full potential in Detroit.  I think it was more of the situation he was in with an expansion team.  Not in any way saying Kozlov was a poor player.  I was a fan of his.  But I don't think many GM's would have thought twice about swapping him for Hasek if money were no object.

 

Holland generally likes to play it safe when trades are involved.  I like the idea of the Buffalo trade.  Unlike most of the proposed roster moves, it's actually plausible and makes sense.  Unfortunately, I don't know as though Holland would trade Quincey, because it would be pretty much admitting a mistake.  In Holland's defense, I don't think anyone could have predicted how much Quincey would regress. 



#122 hathorlive

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:00 PM

I really have to wonder what happens when guys like Nyquist become a RF or worse an UFA.   Why the heck would he tolerate a management team that has kept him in GR way longer than he deserved?  I would live in fear that I'd be sent down (or up or over or put on waivers) because management was so stupid they continued to sign players that were too old or not needed.  We were all convinced this was Nyquists year and there he sits in GR. 

 

The Wings management need to be very careful about who they screw over today because people aren't taking the hometown discount and they aren't going to stay around when you've dicked them over for years.



#123 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:08 PM

Every time I see this thread title I think of Boondock Saints.

 

"Hey!  Boris!...  WHAT WOULD YOU DO?...  If I told you...  Your pinko Commie mother sucked so much d**k, her face looks like an egg?"



#124 dirtydangles

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:11 PM

If I were Holland I'd look into packaging our 2013 1st round pick + Pulks/Almquist + Quincey and see if we can nab a pending UFA/RFA like Girardi  or Kulikov. Realistically Holland NEVER trades roster players (for loyalty or something?). 



#125 Son of a Wing

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:26 PM

I really don't get the fascination people have with guys like Del Zotto, Kulikov and other similar defencemen.  Don't we already have enough good skating/first pass defencemen who are a liability in our own zone?

 

And no those guys are not powerplay quarterbacks.  They can barely crack their rosters on their current struggling teams.

 

Girardi? Sure but he's a pending UFA and will probably re-up with NYR or test the market therefor probably not the best risk.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi

 

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”


#126 kipwinger

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:27 PM

I really don't get the fascination people have with guys like Del Zotto, Kulikov and other similar defencemen.  Don't we already have enough good skating/first pass defencemen who are a liability in our own zone?

 

And no those guys are not powerplay quarterbacks.  They can barely crack their rosters on their current struggling teams.

 

Girardi? Sure but he's a pending UFA and will probably re-up with NYR or test the market therefor probably not the best risk.

 

No, we've got two guys who are supposed to be offensive d-men (Kindl and Smith) who aren't very good, and one (Kronwall) who is.  If you don't think those types of guys are valuable, notice how terrible our transition game has become.  We can barely break out of our zone most nights.  Also, I'm not sure where you get that these guys "barely crack their lineups".  Kulikov has played every game for the Panthers this season and Del Zotto has played the majority, in spite of the fact that he's the odd man out on a team that boasts three VERY good offensive d-men in Staal, McDonough, and Girardi. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#127 Son of a Wing

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:50 PM

 

No, we've got two guys who are supposed to be offensive d-men (Kindl and Smith) who aren't very good, and one (Kronwall) who is.  If you don't think those types of guys are valuable, notice how terrible our transition game has become.  We can barely break out of our zone most nights.  Also, I'm not sure where you get that these guys "barely crack their lineups".  Kulikov has played every game for the Panthers this season and Del Zotto has played the majority, in spite of the fact that he's the odd man out on a team that boasts three VERY good offensive d-men in Staal, McDonough, and Girardi. 

 

That's my point. Do you want to add a third guy who's not exactly known for his defence? Why give up picks and prospects(nobody wants Quincey) for guys who really aren't that much better than what we have.

 

Del Zotto has really struggled and has been outplayed by Stralman and Moore.  

 

I didn't realize Kulikov was playing so much. Honestly don't see Florida play much.  Regardless if we actually trade for a defenceman I'd really prefer a right handed shot.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi

 

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”


#128 wingsfan2430

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:55 PM

If I were Holland I would dump Sammy somewhere along with Eaves maybe even Cleary. Keep Tootoo in the system (we need strength and aggression). If needed bring up Nyquist for the rest of his contract and try to get him to resign with the Wings for a long term deal. Dumping Sammy and Cleary would help going forward.

 

Looking back Mule was not too good of a signing.



#129 Son of a Wing

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:59 PM

Also Staal, McDonagh and Girardi are known for their defensive games with McDonagh being the only one with above NHL average offensive skills.  None are known as powerplay quarter backs.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi

 

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”


#130 dirtydangles

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:01 PM

 

That's my point. Do you want to add a third guy who's not exactly known for his defence? Why give up picks and prospects(nobody wants Quincey) for guys who really aren't that much better than what we have.

 

Del Zotto has really struggled and has been outplayed by Stralman and Moore.  

 

I didn't realize Kulikov was playing so much. Honestly don't see Florida play much.  Regardless if we actually trade for a defenceman I'd really prefer a right handed shot.

Having stay at home guys on every pair is a bit overrated. We play puck possession style (or we try to) and its far better to have good puck movers to do this than rugged solid dmen. We had Rafalski and Lids together and neither were stay at home by any means and look how great that turned out. This is an ideal situation albeit, but I just think we can use some more firepower from the D considering we aren't getting much production out of our D like we did before. The Coyotes actually have the highest scoring D in the league. Kulikov also plays with an edge which is nice. Girardi would be the "safe" bet considering his play is pretty steady considering his style (not really offensively minded).



#131 Son of a Wing

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:12 PM

Having stay at home guys on every pair is a bit overrated. We play puck possession style (or we try to) and its far better to have good puck movers to do this than rugged solid dmen. We had Rafalski and Lids together and neither were stay at home by any means and look how great that turned out. This is an ideal situation albeit, but I just think we can use some more firepower from the D considering we aren't getting much production out of our D like we did before. The Coyotes actually have the highest scoring D in the league. Kulikov also plays with an edge which is nice. Girardi would be the "safe" bet considering his play is pretty steady considering his style (not really offensively minded).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see us upgrade our defence and with offensive skills to boot.  But if we're going to make a trade I think it should be for a right handed, well rounded guy who doesn't make you cringe when in his own zone. We already have 3 of those in Kindl, Quincey and Smith.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi

 

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”


#132 T.Low

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:21 PM

[quote name="Nev" post="2454906" timestamp="1384711953"]


He picked up the phone And a voice at the other end said "we're looking to move Hasek, whaddya got?"

Edited by T.Low, 17 November 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#133 Nightfall

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:09 AM

Hrm....what would I do?

 

Well, if I am the coach, I would play the players that Holland got for me.

 

If I am Holland, I would be kicking myself as to why I signed Cleary.  I mean, why when you already have a glut of forwards that are committed?  I just don't understand.  Aside from that, he has made the right moves in waiving Tootoo and Eaves.  I really don't think that we will see Nyquist in Detroit this season because of the salary cap and Nyquist still is eligible to play in the AHL.  Nyquist knows he will get his chance, like Tatar did.  He had to wait a couple years, and even help the Griffins win the Calder cup.  Nyquist is a professional, and understands what is going on.  Its frustrating probably, but at the same time he is providing leadership and setting an example for the young Griffins players.  You can't put a price tag on that.


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#134 Euro_Twins

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:38 AM

Having stay at home guys on every pair is a bit overrated. We play puck possession style (or we try to) and its far better to have good puck movers to do this than rugged solid dmen. We had Rafalski and Lids together and neither were stay at home by any means and look how great that turned out. This is an ideal situation albeit, but I just think we can use some more firepower from the D considering we aren't getting much production out of our D like we did before. The Coyotes actually have the highest scoring D in the league. Kulikov also plays with an edge which is nice. Girardi would be the "safe" bet considering his play is pretty steady considering his style (not really offensively minded).


Maybe, but when you look at a defenceman like lids, you automatically know he knew when to pinch and when not to, and he was always able to backcheck and cover his own ass in his own zone

1619431_10152076754861235_68631640462286


#135 kipwinger

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:59 PM

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see us upgrade our defence and with offensive skills to boot.  But if we're going to make a trade I think it should be for a right handed, well rounded guy who doesn't make you cringe when in his own zone. We already have 3 of those in Kindl, Quincey and Smith.

 

First, I think you're selling both Kulikov and Del Zotto short defensively.  They're both noticeably better defensively than Kindl or Smith.  Secondly, even if they don't play any defense, they still score more often than our "offensive defensemen" and would therefore be an upgrade.  It's not too hard to make the argument that part of the reason we look so bad defensively is because we can't move the puck out of our zone consistently.  Look at our turnover numbers so far...they're horrible.  Our team gets scored on less by blowing coverage, and more because we turn the puck over.  A defenseman who can make good passes, or has the skill to skate the puck out of the zone, would improve our team in that regard and we'd get scored on less. 

 

I like stay at home defensemen, I really do.  And usually it's not hard to sell me on guys with a Brad Stuart-like skillset.  But I genuinely believe that's not our problem.  We don't move the puck efficiently, and a stay at home guy isn't going to help much in that regard. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#136 Son of a Wing

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:28 PM

 

First, I think you're selling both Kulikov and Del Zotto short defensively.  They're both noticeably better defensively than Kindl or Smith.  Secondly, even if they don't play any defense, they still score more often than our "offensive defensemen" and would therefore be an upgrade.  It's not too hard to make the argument that part of the reason we look so bad defensively is because we can't move the puck out of our zone consistently.  Look at our turnover numbers so far...they're horrible.  Our team gets scored on less by blowing coverage, and more because we turn the puck over.  A defenseman who can make good passes, or has the skill to skate the puck out of the zone, would improve our team in that regard and we'd get scored on less. 

 

I like stay at home defensemen, I really do.  And usually it's not hard to sell me on guys with a Brad Stuart-like skillset.  But I genuinely believe that's not our problem.  We don't move the puck efficiently, and a stay at home guy isn't going to help much in that regard. 

 

Huh?? I feel like you're reading my posts and then reconstructing them in your head to convey an argument. I haven't said a word about acquiring a stay at home defenceman.  All I said was I don't see the point of acquiring someone who's a defensive liability.

 

We can agree to disagree on Del Zotto.  I admitted I was wrong with Kulikov.

 

I'll state again. I'm all for trying to acquire a top 2 guy. High price or not.  If that doesn't happen then go for a well rounded depth veteran.  We don't need another middle-of-the-pack offensive guy who's not great in his own zone. (Del Zotto)


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi

 

When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”


#137 Playmaker

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:06 AM

This is what makes this situation so frustrating is because the reality is, there is very little that Holland can do to get himself out of the mess he created.

 

Trading prospects for a veteran defenseman for does us no good because of the cap.  We would add salary without really losing any. 

 

No team will give us picks for Tootoo or Miller.  We just offered them up for free (Well, it was Eaves, who is Miller with a more attractive contract situation and less gray hair) and every team passed.

 

Cleary, Bertuzzi and Samuelsson have no trade clauses.  In addition, 19 of the 30 NHL teams are at or near the cap for this year.  So, not many trading partners.  Most teams are looking to shed salary.

 

Probably stuck with Franzen for the long haul due to the contract.  No buyouts during the season.  I don't see them buying him out.

 

Add to that, Holland has never made blockbuster trades in any way, so it looks like what you see, is what you get.  The only hope is a season ending injury to one or two of the dead weights, but its more likely we will lose someone like Helm or DeKeyser.

Just what the Wings need. 



#138 frankgrimes

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:31 AM

Just stand pat and let the season play itself out, if Kenny doesn't see the obvious after this season give him the boot. Like I've written in another thread the best owner in all of sports is not going to stand behind an average DetroitRedWings roster, he wants to win and will get the personal giving him the best chance of doing so!

 

I hate to mention it, but I also think it's time for Mike to maybe look at another club - may have lost the room - a swap with the Penguins Babcock for Bylsma? Who knows, but one thing is for sure this has the making of becoming another hang on to make playoffs season, at that point usually roster shakeups are bound to happen after the season.

 

but right now making panic moves doesn't help the situation at all, maybe a top 10 pick is exactly what this team needs to start to speed up the rebuilding process, Not even a guy like Toews, Stammer or Crosby would put this team over the top right now, sad but true.


lidsretire2.jpg
 

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#139 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:14 AM

Would anybody be upset with this lineup for next season??



CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
Detroit
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Marian Gaborik ($6.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Nikolai Kulemin ($3.200m)
Tomas Tatar ($1.200m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Riley Sheahan ($0.850m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m) / Drew Miller ($1.350m)
Landon Ferraro ($0.850m) / Luke Glendening ($0.950m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($4.250m)
Danny DeKeyser ($2.500m) / Dan Boyle ($5.500m)
Jakub Kindl ($2.400m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Petr Mrazek ($0.595m)
BUYOUTS
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Johan Franzen ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $66,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,765,000; BONUSES: $195,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $235,000

#140 dirtydangles

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:31 AM

Would anybody be upset with this lineup for next season??



CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
Detroit
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Marian Gaborik ($6.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Alfie
Tomas Tatar ($1.200m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Drew Miller ($1.350m) / Riley Sheahan ($0.850m)  / Luke Glendening ($0.950m)
Landon Ferraro ($0.850m) / 
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($4.250m)
Danny DeKeyser ($2.500m) / XO
Jakub Kindl ($2.400m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Petr Mrazek ($0.595m)
BUYOUTS
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Johan Franzen ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $66,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,765,000; BONUSES: $195,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $235,000

This is what I'd like. I think XO will be ready to go after this year and be a little more cap friendly. Also not sure about Mrazek as a backup just yet (not great for his development). I'm not an Andersson fan - I think we could see him moved this season at some point to make room for Nyquist. 







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