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An honest question about Nyquist


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#61 dirtydangles

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:11 PM

Holland said the solution must come from within.

“That’s it, that’s the team,’’ Holland said. “We’re not the first team in the league to have struggles. There is no hockey store. It’s got to be done internally.’’

 

Facepalm.... there are such things as OTHER TEAMS that you can trade with... Essentially Holland is saying the team we have is the team we are stuck with and that the players just aren't playing well but he constructed a great team that should win if the players did what he payed them to do.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#62 greenrebellion

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:02 PM

 

Holland said the solution must come from within.

“That’s it, that’s the team,’’ Holland said. “We’re not the first team in the league to have struggles. There is no hockey store. It’s got to be done internally.’’

 

Facepalm.... there are such things as OTHER TEAMS that you can trade with... Essentially Holland is saying the team we have is the team we are stuck with and that the players just aren't playing well but he constructed a great team that should win if the players did what he payed them to do.

 

 

I'd like to see the entire team healthy simply so it forces Holland to make a move for cap reasons.  Would be interesting to see what he does when his hand is forced.

 

That said, Holland's quote shouldn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.  He's made it clear numerous times that in the salary cap era he believes that hanging on to picks and young talent is paramount...especially if you want to be competitive year in and year out.  



#63 dirtydangles

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:06 PM

 

I'd like to see the entire team healthy simply so it forces Holland to make a move for cap reasons.  Would be interesting to see what he does when his hand is forced.

 

That said, Holland's quote shouldn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.  He's made it clear numerous times that in the salary cap era he believes that hanging on to picks and young talent is paramount...especially if you want to be competitive year in and year out.  

Holland will just scratch Eaves - which begs the question why he just didn't do it right away and make room rather than sitting the guy night in and night out.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#64 Echolalia

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:08 PM

 

I'd like to see the entire team healthy simply so it forces Holland to make a move for cap reasons.  Would be interesting to see what he does when his hand is forced.

 

That said, Holland's quote shouldn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.  He's made it clear numerous times that in the salary cap era he believes that hanging on to picks and young talent is paramount...especially if you want to be competitive year in and year out.  

 

 

I support that mindset.  It makes for boring trade deadlines, but its not economical.  Free agency and drafts provide players for free, without the added downside of helping out an opponent.  Besides, this team really has everything necessary to be successful.  The Wings took the Stanley Cup winning team to overtime of game 7 last year with less talent than they have now.  Its just a matter of getting everyone on the same page and getting all the wheels turning at once.



#65 greenrebellion

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:12 PM

 

 

I support that mindset.  It makes for boring trade deadlines, but its not economical.  Free agency and drafts provide players for free, without the added downside of helping out an opponent.  Besides, this team really has everything necessary to be successful.  The Wings took the Stanley Cup winning team to overtime of game 7 last year with less talent than they have now.  Its just a matter of getting everyone on the same page and getting all the wheels turning at once.

 

Agreed, you can't have it all.  A team can make a bunch of big trades and make a run for a few seasons, but deplete prospect depth in the process, which will eventually lead to a painful rebuilding period.  I kind of like seeing the Wings make the playoffs year in and year out.  And even if they miss this season, which I don't expect, it wouldn't be a long absence given the up and coming prospects they have.



#66 T.Low

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:10 PM

 
Agreed, you can't have it all.  A team can make a bunch of big trades and make a run for a few seasons, but deplete prospect depth in the process, which will eventually lead to a painful rebuilding period.  I kind of like seeing the Wings make the playoffs year in and year out.  And even if they miss this season, which I don't expect, it wouldn't be a long absence given the up and coming prospects they have.


And of course as we all know, playoff games are where the real revenue comes from, so it is a good business plan also.

#67 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:18 PM

 

Agreed, you can't have it all.  A team can make a bunch of big trades and make a run for a few seasons, but deplete prospect depth in the process, which will eventually lead to a painful rebuilding period.  I kind of like seeing the Wings make the playoffs year in and year out.  And even if they miss this season, which I don't expect, it wouldn't be a long absence given the up and coming prospects they have.

 

I just don't see it. Who is the next Stevie Y for the Red Wings? The next Fedorov, Lidstrom, Dats, or Z? Where are these kinds of players in the Wings organization? Looks to me like the farm system has a number of potential second line starters (Nyquist, Tatar) but no real franchise type players.



#68 Echolalia

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:09 PM

 

I just don't see it. Who is the next Stevie Y for the Red Wings? The next Fedorov, Lidstrom, Dats, or Z? Where are these kinds of players in the Wings organization? Looks to me like the farm system has a number of potential second line starters (Nyquist, Tatar) but no real franchise type players.

Franchise players aren't often traded away, and on the occasion they are, there are 10 bottom-feeders willing to outbid you, plus Paul Holmgren.



#69 Son of a Wing

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:30 PM

 

I just don't see it. Who is the next Stevie Y for the Red Wings? The next Fedorov, Lidstrom, Dats, or Z? Where are these kinds of players in the Wings organization? Looks to me like the farm system has a number of potential second line starters (Nyquist, Tatar) but no real franchise type players.

 

Sproul, Jurco and Mantha have star potential.  They all have great size and have been very successful at every level they've competed at.


Mrazek as well.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
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#70 T.Low

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:19 AM

 
I just don't see it. Who is the next Stevie Y for the Red Wings? The next Fedorov, Lidstrom, Dats, or Z? Where are these kinds of players in the Wings organization? Looks to me like the farm system has a number of potential second line starters (Nyquist, Tatar) but no real franchise type players.



Exactly. Now you are beginning to understand just how special that team was.

#71 kipwinger

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:06 AM

 

Agreed, you can't have it all.  A team can make a bunch of big trades and make a run for a few seasons, but deplete prospect depth in the process, which will eventually lead to a painful rebuilding period.  I kind of like seeing the Wings make the playoffs year in and year out.  And even if they miss this season, which I don't expect, it wouldn't be a long absence given the up and coming prospects they have.

 

I agree with you to an extent, but there's a danger in thinking that anytime a team trades away a prospect or pick that they're mortgaging the future of their club.  For instance, we've got defenseman prospects and goalie prospects bleeding out of our ears, and we've got a young goalie and a young defense.  You could realistically part with a high quality prospect without losing too much organizational depth.  Obviously you don't want to throw them away for nothing, or some marginally good quasi-star player.  But if the right piece was available for a package containing Mrazek or Sproul or Ouellet I think you could pretty easily pull the trigger without cursing your organization's future.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#72 VM1138

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:05 AM

Exactly Kipwinger, we have so many prospects, some will never see a spot on the Wings roster. Holland has to be certain about who is worth keeping, but that doesn't mean he should never trade someone. If you rely 90% on prospects it'll take you 10 to 15 years to have fully developed players and a competitive team. And that's only if they work out.

A balance of trades, drafting and UFA signing are the way to a consistently winning team. Trades and signing ensure you can quickly address team weaknesses. Not wait for years for a solution to hopefully develop.

You never know what will happen in the future. Play to win NOW.
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#73 greenrebellion

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:09 AM

 

I agree with you to an extent, but there's a danger in thinking that anytime a team trades away a prospect or pick that they're mortgaging the future of their club.  For instance, we've got defenseman prospects and goalie prospects bleeding out of our ears, and we've got a young goalie and a young defense.  You could realistically part with a high quality prospect without losing too much organizational depth.  Obviously you don't want to throw them away for nothing, or some marginally good quasi-star player.  But if the right piece was available for a package containing Mrazek or Sproul or Ouellet I think you could pretty easily pull the trigger without cursing your organization's future.

 

I hear what you are saying, and I don't think that Holland will NEVER make a trade, I just think they will be few and far between.  Realistically, this team isn't one piece away from a Stanley Cup, so this really isn't the year to make a huge splash.  Let the youth develop, see what holes there are to fill a year or two out and I'm sure Holland will seek to build out the team.  However, this patient approach won't be enough for many people who are always in win now mode, which I just don't think is a realistic way to build a long term successful franchise.



#74 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:20 AM

 
I hear what you are saying, and I don't think that Holland will NEVER make a trade, I just think they will be few and far between.  Realistically, this team isn't one piece away from a Stanley Cup, so this really isn't the year to make a huge splash.  Let the youth develop, see what holes there are to fill a year or two out and I'm sure Holland will seek to build out the team.  However, this patient approach won't be enough for many people who are always in win now mode, which I just don't think is a realistic way to build a long term successful franchise.


I agree with most your post but I disagree with not being just one move away from a cup contender. If Weiss and mule show up they are huge X factors. Z-pav-Bert could be the best line in hockey, mule-Weiss-alfy could be a very good 2nd line, Tatar-helm-nyquist could be the best third line in hockey, and we can have a very solid 4th line.

As far as defense goes I do believe we need a top 4 defensemen. But we do have the assets to pull off a deal weather it's a solid vet or even a top 2 d-man. We got good prospects, we can move smith, Quincey, and others.

Maybe a team like buffalo would take on a couple of our expiring contracts, tootoo,eaves,Sammy, Quincey, along with smith for a guy like erhoff.

#75 VM1138

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:09 AM

 
I hear what you are saying, and I don't think that Holland will NEVER make a trade, I just think they will be few and far between.  Realistically, this team isn't one piece away from a Stanley Cup, so this really isn't the year to make a huge splash.  Let the youth develop, see what holes there are to fill a year or two out and I'm sure Holland will seek to build out the team.  However, this patient approach won't be enough for many people who are always in win now mode, which I just don't think is a realistic way to build a long term successful franchise.

It worked for the Wings for 15 years. You don't trade the farm, but prospects, unless they are a sure fire superstar in the making, get traded so you can get that star score to win the Cup.

It used to be every year Holland would look at the team and say "how can we win it all this year?" The last few years we've heard "how can we not miss playoffs?"

Wait and see never works in pro sports. The problem is trading has all but dried up in the new NHL.

Oh, and my argument has worked for Chicago, too.

Edit: I'm a big fan of getting (good) veterans or prime players and sprinkling young kids around them. Not waiting year after year for a kid to explode and save your team.
Check out my short e-book on the Red Wings' 1937 Stanley Cup championship entitled: "Nothing Could Keep 'Em Down." Please download it from my profile at Smashwords: https://www.smashwor...ile/view/victor

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#76 Dabura

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:36 AM

The latest earliest we'll see Nyquist is after around the trade deadline.  Mark my words.

 

Fixed.

 

Getting Nyquist back will be like a big trade deadline acquisition. We all know this script by now.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#77 greenrebellion

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:37 AM

It worked for the Wings for 15 years. You don't trade the farm, but prospects, unless they are a sure fire superstar in the making, get traded so you can get that star score to win the Cup.

It used to be every year Holland would look at the team and say "how can we win it all this year?" The last few years we've heard "how can we not miss playoffs?"

Wait and see never works in pro sports. The problem is trading has all but dried up in the new NHL.

Oh, and my argument has worked for Chicago, too.

Edit: I'm a big fan of getting (good) veterans or prime players and sprinkling young kids around them. Not waiting year after year for a kid to explode and save your team.

 

Yes, Holland changed his approach because there was a dramatic rule change implemented...the salary cap.  

 

And your point is valid, trading has slowed down dramatically and the prices are insanely high for top end talent.  Again I emphasize that we are not one piece away from the cup.  Sure if Weiss rebounds to form, Franzen starts to care, Quincey and Smith learn how to play D then sure, anything can happen.  But as the team is playing right now, it is not a team that is one major trade away from a cup.  



#78 Dabura

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:01 PM

It worked for the Wings for 15 years. You don't trade the farm, but prospects, unless they are a sure fire superstar in the making, get traded so you can get that star score to win the Cup.

It used to be every year Holland would look at the team and say "how can we win it all this year?" The last few years we've heard "how can we not miss playoffs?"

Wait and see never works in pro sports. The problem is trading has all but dried up in the new NHL.

Oh, and my argument has worked for Chicago, too.

Edit: I'm a big fan of getting (good) veterans or prime players and sprinkling young kids around them. Not waiting year after year for a kid to explode and save your team.

 

The thing about Chicago, of course, is that they went the suck-mercilessly-and-get-rewarded-for-it route. Unless we're going to go the same route, we really can't count on our kids just coming out of nowhere and leading us to glory. I know we're generally pretty good at drafting, but, bottom line, you don't make the playoffs every season and then decide, "Y'know what, our picks and prospects are gonna carry us from now on. Screw outside help." It doesn't work that way. (Unless your scouts are LUDICROUSLY good, and you have a handful of absolutely can't-miss young studs who have already cracked the lineup and are, in fact, practically carrying the team on their backs.)


Edited by Dabura, 14 November 2013 - 12:05 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#79 Son of a Wing

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:33 PM

It worked for the Wings for 15 years. You don't trade the farm, but prospects, unless they are a sure fire superstar in the making, get traded so you can get that star score to win the Cup.

It used to be every year Holland would look at the team and say "how can we win it all this year?" The last few years we've heard "how can we not miss playoffs?"

Wait and see never works in pro sports. The problem is trading has all but dried up in the new NHL.

Oh, and my argument has worked for Chicago, too.

Edit: I'm a big fan of getting (good) veterans or prime players and sprinkling young kids around them. Not waiting year after year for a kid to explode and save your team.

 

I think this is fairly common practice for every team since the salary cap was introduced.  Simply put, teams need to develop young players to fill their roster out with budding potential on entry-level deals.  GM's talk about this all the time.  It's nothing new.


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#80 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:50 PM

 

Sproul, Jurco and Mantha have star potential.  They all have great size and have been very successful at every level they've competed at.


Mrazek as well.

Hope you're right. I've been hearing (here,  mostly) that Mantha is big but doesn't really use his size.







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