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Babcock performance thread


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#1 dragonballgtz

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:58 AM

Personally I think Babs is killing the offense with his system.  Guys that have left our team are starting to play like the players we needed them to be here. I look at Smith and just think, even though he was a defensive nightmare when he first came up, he doesn't even create plays like he use to when he first got here.

 

Your thoughts? And sorry if a thread like this already exists, it's 3AM and I am sleepy



#2 T.Low

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 03:19 AM

We need to recall Blashill and send Babcock down. We got to put our best coach behind the bench.

#3 Dabura

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:11 AM

We need to recall Blashill and send Babcock down. We got to put our best coach behind the bench.

 

I was wondering: Can we do that? We can't actually do that, can we? I mean, the two guys would have to sign new contracts or something, right? (I know pretty much nothing about coach contracts.)

 

I am a huge fan of Blashill. The guy gets it.


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#4 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:25 AM

Babs has a  good win %, in fact in the reg season its better than Scotty's was. I feel that he isn't getting the right players for the system's he wants

to use. So he either has to change his style to adapt to the roster he has or get Kenny targeting players that will work within the Babcock reign.

 

as for the roster, well I kinda get the feeling that were gunna ride it thru to the season's end and then Kenny can right the wrongs he's done by not

re-signing guys that are past their best. Loyalty is all well and good, but im afraid its costing us games now and at the end of the day, Mr I will only

stand so much before the hammer comes down.

 

on the plus side, if we carry on like this we could get a top 10 draft pick for the first time since Martin Lapointe in 1991.


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#5 frankgrimes

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:52 AM

Babs has a  good win %, in fact in the reg season its better than Scotty's was. I feel that he isn't getting the right players for the system's he wants
to use. So he either has to change his style to adapt to the roster he has or get Kenny targeting players that will work within the Babcock reign.
 
as for the roster, well I kinda get the feeling that were gunna ride it thru to the season's end and then Kenny can right the wrongs he's done by not
re-signing guys that are past their best. Loyalty is all well and good, but im afraid its costing us games now and at the end of the day, Mr I will only
stand so much before the hammer comes down.
 
on the plus side, if we carry on like this we could get a top 10 draft pick for the first time since Martin Lapointe in 1991.


I agree with this. Babcock doesn't like an all offense run and gun style, I always thought Mike prefers a grind it out 200 foot game. He needs a special type of players for this and Kenny has only provided him with finesse skilled players, that aren't playing or capable of playing a blue collar style.

So one of the two has to give, the best owner in all of sports is not going to accept mediocrity forever. Get Stevo Y or Chiarelli as GM's please and let Kenny become the vice president for hockey operation.

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#6 GoalieManPat

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:47 AM

Cant throw everything on Babcock. He can only work with what Kenny is giving him.



#7 VM1138

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:02 AM

Let's not forget it was Babcock who wanted Cleary re-signed. Holland signed him, but I imagine under pressure.
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#8 evilmrt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:21 AM

The Holland/Babcock combo doesn't work anymore. I'd prefer that KH be the one to go/get promoted... But that won't save this season with the damage he's done. A new GM would have to pull a rabbit out of his ass to salvage this one. On the other hand, a simple coaching change could do wonders. I really hate that option, though... One only has to remember the Dave Lewis years to shudder at the idea of a coaching change. Babs is a great coach, I'd keep him over KH in an instant.
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#9 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:23 AM

I'm less inclined to blame Babcock for this as I am to blame Holland. Holland signs the players. He's the one who has tirelessly held into useless old plugs instead of opening roster spots for valuable young players that can provide secondary scoring. This team should be one of the better ones in the league. Instead, we are one of the most inconsistent at best, and at worst, we have been the one of the worst teams in hockey over the past 7 games. With a few roster moves, we could improve vastly. Instead, we are forced, as fans, to accept the same ridiculous status quo that has been established by Holland's over-loyalty and complacency.

Edited by DatsyukToZetterberg, 20 November 2013 - 09:24 AM.


#10 The Secret

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:08 AM

Give him some time. Let Babs see where his pieces work and don't. He's a winner, always has been and always will be. Might not be pretty at times but he gets the job done and he's prven that. How quickly we forget the massive changes this team has gone through in the last few seasons and we are still competitive with the ability to achieve more... Babs will figure it out. Looks at last season. There is a tonne of hockey yet to be played. If you want the Red Wings domination of old start watching the 2002 season archives... this team needs to adapt to what it has and it will. Won't be an all out Red Wings landslide anymore it will have to be done with some old school mucky grinding hockey.



#11 Dabura

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:08 AM

I'm less inclined to blame Babcock for this as I am to blame Holland. Holland signs the players. He's the one who has tirelessly held into useless old plugs instead of opening roster spots for valuable young players that can provide secondary scoring. This team should be one of the better ones in the league. Instead, we are one of the most inconsistent at best, and at worst, we have been the one of the worst teams in hockey over the past 7 games. With a few roster moves, we could improve vastly. Instead, we are forced, as fans, to accept the same ridiculous status quo that has been established by Holland's over-loyalty and complacency.

 

To be fair, wasn't Babs more than ok with Cleary coming back (as far as we know)? And isn't the coach the one making the boneheaded decisions regarding ice time and line combos and defense pairings? I mean, hey, let's try Cleary with Datsyuk and Zetterberg AGAIN because, s***, why not???? Babs is losing his marbles.

 

Again, though, I do believe most of the blame falls on Holland. I think, for example, if Babs had a couple of really big, strong, physical Canadian grinders (really GOOD ones), Cleary probably wouldn't see the ice. But when Babs says, "OK, I need a heavy game. I want my third line to create a heavy, grinding forecheck that'll create sustained pressure, wear down the opposition, draw a penalty or two, maybe even score a goal. Good idea, right? Yeah, we definitely need that heavy forechecking. So, my options are...Cleary...and...Andy...and...Sammy. FML" - that's on Holland. Our whole crappy roster is on Holland. This no Nyquist bulls*** is on Holland. Etc.

 

But, at the same time, I think better coaching squeezees out at least two wins in this losing streak, and then you're not even talking about a losing streak, and fans aren't screaming for anyone's head. Babs has been incredibly "out there" this season (you can see it in the decisions he makes and some of his comments), and he needs to rein himself in and get back on track. If that doesn't happen...well, personally, I'm practically in love with the idea of Jeff Blashill coaching the Wings.


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#12 wingedominance13

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:22 AM

Last night was the first time I've ever questioned whether Babcock is the problem. The team needs a jump start I don't think relieving Babcock is the answer, I think the Holland needs to make a move and show that ppl's jobs aren't safe. For instance why not trade Bertuzzi, he's played well this season and his stock won't get any higher than it is right now, or even someone like Miller. Make a move to shake the boys up cuz right now they are stagnant and timid.



#13 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:32 AM

 
To be fair, wasn't Babs more than ok with Cleary coming back (as far as we know)? And isn't the coach the one making the boneheaded decisions regarding ice time and line combos and defense pairings? I mean, hey, let's try Cleary with Datsyuk and Zetterberg AGAIN because, s***, why not???? Babs is losing his marbles.
 
Again, though, I do believe most of the blame falls on Holland. I think, for example, if Babs had a couple of really big, strong, physical Canadian grinders (really GOOD ones), Cleary probably wouldn't see the ice. But when Babs says, "OK, I need a heavy game. I want my third line to create a heavy, grinding forecheck that'll create sustained pressure, wear down the opposition, draw a penalty or two, maybe even score a goal. Good idea, right? Yeah, we definitely need that heavy forechecking. So, my options are...Cleary...and...Andy...and...Sammy. FML" - that's on Holland. Our whole crappy roster is on Holland. This no Nyquist bulls*** is on Holland. Etc.
 
But, at the same time, I think better coaching squeezees out at least two wins in this losing streak, and then you're not even talking about a losing streak, and fans aren't screaming for anyone's head. Babs has been incredibly "out there" this season (you can see it in the decisions he makes and some of his comments), and he needs to rein himself in and get back on track. If that doesn't happen...well, personally, I'm practically in love with the idea of Jeff Blashill coaching the Wings.

I'm more inclined to blame Holland but I certainly lay some blame at Babcock's feet. Cleary coming back, apparently, was both of their doing. But Sammy with a NTC? Andy being kept up over more deserving youngsters? The Quincey disaster? Waiving Eaves and Tootoo when Cleary and Sammy were FAR better waiver options? All of those fall on Holland. I didn't mean to make it sound like Babs is totally blameless, but for the most part, Holland's sideshow has crippled his ability to ice the best lineup. Our best young player is still in Grand Rapids.

#14 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:04 AM

I'm less inclined to blame Babcock for this as I am to blame Holland. Holland signs the players. He's the one who has tirelessly held into useless old plugs instead of opening roster spots for valuable young players that can provide secondary scoring. This team should be one of the better ones in the league. Instead, we are one of the most inconsistent at best, and at worst, we have been the one of the worst teams in hockey over the past 7 games. With a few roster moves, we could improve vastly. Instead, we are forced, as fans, to accept the same ridiculous status quo that has been established by Holland's over-loyalty and complacency.

 

Honestly I think the worst part is that Holland has put himself in a position where he can't make any moves to try and fix his mistakes.

 

Like I've said before, Holland has been the master at tinkering the Red Wings machine he inherited.  A piece here and there to keep it running.  But as the machine is falling apart and needed an overhaul (and lost the engine in Nick Lidstrom), he's being exposed.



#15 dobbles

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:12 AM

I see a lot of people trying to put the blame more on Holland for the lack of youth, but consider this: Babcock is not embracing the youth movement anyways. Babcock is the one that sets the lines each night and has scratched Tatar most of the season.

 

To me there is a lot of blame to go around. Many counter and say 'we almost beat the Hawks last year and we are still in X place this year', but I call BS on that sort of attitude. The wings still have 2 of the best forwards in the game, and we cant even surround them with enough talent to get out of the bottom third of the league in scoring? I have high expectations for this team still and not because the Red Wings make the playoffs every year or because Detroit fans are spoiled, its because I still believe that enough pieces are there that we should be competing for the cup each year.

 

And I do fully believe that in the last 5 years, Holland has made more bad moves than good which has contributed to these problems. And I feel we are getting close to the point where even a coach as great as Mike Babcock might be doing more harm than good.


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#16 dat's sick

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:15 AM

I agree with this. Babcock doesn't like an all offense run and gun style, I always thought Mike prefers a grind it out 200 foot game. He needs a special type of players for this and Kenny has only provided him with finesse skilled players, that aren't playing or capable of playing a blue collar style.So one of the two has to give, the best owner in all of sports is not going to accept mediocrity forever. Get Stevo Y or Chiarelli as GM's please and let Kenny become the vice president for hockey operation.

Disagreed. We don't have enough finesse and skill. Babcock's style works best when he's working with skilled players. Because he gets them to work hard and play defense. Right now we might do better with a coach that lets offensive guys focus on offense, but I'd rather see more skilled and speedy players inserted into the lineup.

The reason I have a hard time blaming Babcock is because he's still getting the most out of many guys: Z, D, Bert, Alfie, Kronner, Dekeyser, E, Helm, Abby. What coach can make Cleary, Sammy, Andersson, Quincey and Kindl into good players?

Babcock needs certain types of players. Right now we have too few guys that can handle his system. Of course we could change the coach, but I'd rather change a few players before parting with a coach that 29 other teams would be interested in.

Edited by dat's sick, 20 November 2013 - 11:17 AM.


#17 dirtydangles

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:17 AM

It blows my mind to imagine how much better this team would be with Nyquist and Brunner over Sammy, Cleary, Tootoo



#18 Dabura

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:31 AM

Disagreed. We don't have enough finesse and skill. Babcock's style works best when he's working with skilled players. Because he gets them to work hard and play defense. Right now we might do better with a coach that lets offensive guys focus on offense, but I'd rather see more skilled and speedy players inserted into the lineup.

 

Agreed. If anything, we're too blue-collar. Our forward corps basically has a bottom nine, with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Tatar being the three exceptions.


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#19 Spongewingredpants

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:35 AM

our top scorers are approaching 40 or are and are young guys are either benched to riding the shuttle bus back and forth to Grand Rapids

 

Meanwhile Cleary gets up every morning to get ready for the next game.....


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#20 cnot19

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:23 PM

Fire Babcock hire laviolette!
Get me a real fourth line Kenny!





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