Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Respect Babcock and Holland


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#21 dirtydangles

dirtydangles

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:01 PM

We may have a good farm, but we don't have a Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Lidstrom in the prospect system. I think our D could be great in 5 years, I'm worried though about our forwards.

This. In 3 years we won't have the firepower to be a contender. We will look a lot like Nashville at this rate. Surefire D prospects in Sproul, Backman, XO (could argue a few others), along with Current Dmen will make our D insanely good. Unless Jarnkrok and Sheahan both become top 6 centres we are screwed. We desperately need a sure-thing at centre in our prospect system. 3 years from now Dats is gone and Z is on the wrong side of 35. If I were Holland I would think long and hard about trading up this or the next draft to try to draft a future top line centre - if that means moving some of our good D prospects then so be it because we have enough.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#22 PumpkinEscobar

PumpkinEscobar

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 459 posts

Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:01 PM

Maybe Dave Dombrowski wants to be GM of the Wings and pull double duty



#23 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,822 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:54 PM

I think your stuck in the past when there wasn't a salary cap. Sorry buddy can't have all the best players in the world on your team anymore. Why Holland chose Franzen over Hossa is clear, salary.
Hossa stats 12-13
40gp and 31 points
Franzen stats 12-13
41gp 31 points
Hossa stats 11-12
81gp 71 points
Franzen stats 11-12
77gp 56 points
Hossa 2 season / 102 points
Frazen 2 season / 87 points
Hossa 5.275 million per season
Frazen 3.954 million per seasonFranzen gets paid 74.9% of Hossa and produces at 85.3% compared to Hossa.
Frazen is a much better value than Hossa. Good choice by Holland in a salary cap world.

 

Holland is that you?

Let's be serious in no shape or form is Franzen a better value than Hossa. Hossa makes 1.3 million more than Franzen, 1.3! Even in a salary cap world that's minuscule. Plus you can't even compare the two on defense, Hossa is a world class defensive player.
You don't need a team full of all-stars to win but with the salary cap you have to be smart on where you allocate your resources. Let's run down a couple of Hollands signings:

Bertuzzi: 2 years at just over 2 million, love Todd but that's not a great deal for an older player with back problems. But his deal is not as bad as some others.

Sammy: 2 years at 6 million, Holland did this deal when the team had cap space which makes it that much worse.

Tootoo: 1.9 for 3 years, he doesn't provide much offensively and Babs never plays him.

Cleary: 1 year at just under 2 million, but signed him when the team had a full roster and up against the cap.
And let's not forget about giving up a first round pick for Quincey. You can also add never finding a replacement for either Lidstrom or Rafalski. Hollands decisions lately have been very suspect.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#24 Internet.Unknown

Internet.Unknown

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 229 posts

Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:15 PM


Oh your right man we have nothing in Grand Rapids we just won the Calder Cup led by our prospects... Yeah that means nothing. Landing the big name free agents you mentioned sure has been working great for Min hey??? Oh wait Min doesn't have the management and prospect pool we do to make those 2 star players worth jack chit.


I would love to see you guys endure having a crappy GM who would trade off our team tank and try to build a new team that's only sustainable for a few cup runs and tanks for years again and again.

Red Wings have down years, but our down years we still make the playoffs and still have a chance to compete in playoffs just like last year. We also have years where we are cup favorites. Man we got it so bad.

 

I am right. I'm glad you see it.

 

If you believe that any of the players currently in Grand Rapids will become the next Yzerman, Fedorov, or anyone else I mentioned, you're one of those kool-aid guzzling fans. The Wings' current prospects aren't franchise type players. You demean the Wings' legends by making the claim.

 

For the record, I've been following the Wings since '88. I've endured Goose Loonies (look it up), Probert's shenanigans on the border, missing the playoffs, the Jimmy Carson 58-player deal, the Oates/Federko deal, the disappointment of clutch-and-grab crap hockey in the '95 Finals, the drafting of Keith "Wet Butt" Primeau instead of Jagr because manangement feared another Klima, and Konstantinov's sad, awful injury. I have seen this team through highs and lows. I am a true fan, so please do not suggest otherwise.



#25 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts

Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:38 PM

I am just loving it, when some everything is fine fans are telling realistic people on how to feel. Fact of the matter is, this team has been out in the second round 3 times and in one time in the first round, that's not DetroitRedWings style period. Even Babcock was quoted saying that this to him is not going into the right direction. Usually the time to rebuild is *before* a team is bad enough to make it almost mandatory. The so called.great farm system has some nice prospects but nothing even close to Pasha, Z, Hasek or Fedorov of Lidstrom. It's basically a nice pool with great depth but no star or superstar potential. I respect both of them but the reason why this team even made the playoffs last year, was a shortened season and them playing over their talent level. I respect Mike and Kenny a lot but if they have a different take on the reality off this roster of philosophy something has to give simple as that. Maybe missing the playoffs.for the first time since forever would be the right dose of reality. Personally I can and will fathom a bad season if it leads. To more.youth introduction and better picks but this edition right now is unwatchable, if things aren't going your way play.physical, start a fight just something to make the team up...oh I forgot the PP is the very dangerous enforcer... Questiong moves and roster management != disrespect it is being concerned about the present and more so future of a team that's getting up their in age.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#26 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,999 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 21 November 2013 - 01:34 AM

It's because I respect them so much that I am holding them accountable, I'm holding their feet to the fire.

 

Boom. This.

 

I'm seeing some increasingly disturbing parallels to Weezer/Rivers Cuomo.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#27 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,999 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 21 November 2013 - 01:50 AM

We may have a good farm, but we don't have a Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Lidstrom in the prospect system. I think our D could be great in 5 years, I'm worried though about our forwards.

 

To be fair, no one really expected Datsyuk to become *Datsyuk* or Zetterberg to become *Zetterberg* or Lidstrom to become *Lidstrom*. But I get where you're coming from.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#28 bardownginos

bardownginos

    Prospect

  • Member
  • 39 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:04 AM

I have a ton of respect for Holland, not Babcock. A lot of the problems surrounding the team are due to Babcock, not Holland. Although I do concede that Holland is the GM and should put his foot down, a lot of fans do not realize how much influence Babcock has in regards to what players come in and what players go out.

 

For recent examples, Hudler, Filppula, and Brunner are all gone because of Babcock. A close friend of mine who works within the team told me that Fil left because he was done playing for Babcock. You can take that how you wish. Hudler and Brunner, I think everyone knows why they are gone...of course I'm much less upset about Brunner being gone than Hudler, because Jiri was an extremely underrated asset...or maybe I'm just sensitive to the string of shootout losses.

 

As far as players coming in, Babcock was, as everyone knows, influential in bringing Cleary back and he also had a say in the Quincey signing. Obviously, both of LGW's whipping boys.

 

I do believe there is a bit of a power struggle between Holland and Babcock and our lack of identity is being shown by that. I also believe Babcock is not the coach to take this team forward. But that is up for extreme debate. 



#29 GoalieManPat

GoalieManPat

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,363 posts
  • Location:Swartz Creek, MI

Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:11 AM

Hossa stats 12-13
40gp and 31 points
Franzen stats 12-13
41gp 31 points

Hossa stats 11-12
81gp 71 points
Franzen stats 11-12
77gp 56 points

Hossa 2 season / 102 points
Frazen 2 season / 87 points

Hossa 5.275 million per season
Frazen 3.954 million per season

Franzen gets paid 74.9% of Hossa and produces at 85.3% compared to Hossa.

Frazen is a much better value than Hossa. Good choice by Holland in a salary cap world.

Since taking Franzen over Hossa-

Stanley Cups:

Hossa-2

Franzen-0

 

Thats the only stat that matters. Hossa has been instrumental in two Cup championships. Franzen has been uninspiring in 1st and 2nd round eliminations.


Edited by GoalieManPat, 21 November 2013 - 03:11 AM.


#30 joesuffP

joesuffP

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,926 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:41 AM

Since taking Franzen over Hossa-
Stanley Cups:
Hossa-2
Franzen-0
 
Thats the only stat that matters. Hossa has been instrumental in two Cup championships. Franzen has been uninspiring in 1st and 2nd round eliminations.

Franzen was also instrumental and probably our most productive forward for 1 Stanley cup and another finals appearance. Blackhawks since winning the cup lost in first and second rounds and battled to barely make the playoffs.....Then won again (sigh)

Let's face it We'd be ripping on Hossa the same as Franzen if it were reversed. Imagine Hossa being thrown in this train wreck of a team. Blackhawks fans aren't too thrilled with Hossa most of the time and he has a lot more talented support than Franzen.
Hossa is no Gretzky people the grass is greener thinking around here is ridiculous

Edited by joesuffP, 21 November 2013 - 03:48 AM.


#31 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,822 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:58 AM

Franzen was also instrumental and probably our most productive forward for 1 Stanley cup and another finals appearance. Blackhawks since winning the cup lost in first and second rounds and battled to barely make the playoffs.....Then won again (sigh)
Let's face it We'd be ripping on Hossa the same as Franzen if it were reversed. Imagine Hossa being thrown in this train wreck of a team. Blackhawks fans aren't too thrilled with Hossa most of the time and he has a lot more talented support than Franzen.
Hossa is no Gretzky people the grass is greener thinking around here is ridiculous


Was Franzen instrumental in winning the cup in 08? Yes
Would we have won more cups with Hossa here instead? Who knows
Would games be more enjoyable to watch on a nightly bases with Hossa instead of Franzen? Absolutely

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#32 dragonballgtz

dragonballgtz

    Yu-Gi-HOE

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,403 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:17 AM

Was Franzen instrumental in winning the cup in 08? Yes
Would we have won more cups with Hossa here instead? Who knows
Would games be more enjoyable to watch on a nightly bases with Hossa instead of Franzen? Absolutely

It wasn't just Mule or Hossa decision. It was a sign Mule & Hulder or re-sign Hossa decision. Even when Hudler left to go play in the KHL the following season we were still right near the cap without him here. Holland wanted two good players instead of one, but we all now how that worked out for us.

 

I blame Holland for the most recent signings of Sammy, Bert, and Cleary. All those NTCs and 1 year extra then what they needed to be, in Cleary's case Holland should have let him walk.

 

EDIT: Quincey trade LOL!!


Edited by dragonballgtz, 21 November 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#33 Mckinley25

Mckinley25

    4th Line Grinder

  • Bronze Booster
  • 257 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:19 AM

 
To be fair, no one really expected Datsyuk to become *Datsyuk* or Zetterberg to become *Zetterberg* or Lidstrom to become *Lidstrom*. But I get where you're coming from.


No, not exactly, and both Datsyuk and Zetterberg had overseas development time but shortly before coming over Zetterberg was drawing a lot of Forsberg comparisons and the first day of training camp everyone knew Datsyuk was special. They all cracked the lineup immediately after coming to North America.

Certainly some of the really young prospects like Jurco could develop into stars but I believe the days of finding late round draft pick superstars are for the most part over as every team has far reaching international scouting now.

I believe our biggest problem right now is our transition. We have lost the precision we are used to seeing from the D to the O. Most of that is our backend doesn't quite have the skill to make those plays effectively, but we also have a few forwards who aren't making things happen with the puck.

In past years we would hang onto the puck as long as it took to get a scoring chance. Now with a few exceptions we just don't have the skill set to accomplish that. Also the game is increasingly becoming faster and decisions have to be made quicker.

In the pre-2005 lockout, players like Larionov would rag with the puck seemingly endlessly until a safe pass could be made. The game has changed a lot, Quincy in this system won't cut it. I still believe Smith can, and I believe with the right line up Kindl is a solid bottom pairing Dman. This is all a very over simplistic assessment I realize, bjt this could go on forever. ...

#34 Red Crazy

Red Crazy

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Location:Manitoba, Canada

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

I think your stuck in the past when there wasn't a salary cap. Sorry buddy can't have all the best players in the world on your team anymore. Why Holland chose Franzen over Hossa is clear, salary.

Hossa stats 12-13
40gp and 31 points
Franzen stats 12-13
41gp 31 points

Hossa stats 11-12
81gp 71 points
Franzen stats 11-12
77gp 56 points

Hossa 2 season / 102 points
Frazen 2 season / 87 points

Hossa 5.275 million per season
Frazen 3.954 million per season

Franzen gets paid 74.9% of Hossa and produces at 85.3% compared to Hossa.

Frazen is a much better value than Hossa. Good choice by Holland in a salary cap world.



 


Ohh poor you we only won 3 Stanley Cups during this streak and made the playoffs more consecutive years than any team in the league. We better fire them because Wings fans want a Stanly Cup every single year for the rest of their lives. To bad you can't leave the Wings and root for another team because no other team in the league will satisfy you for more than a couple years in a row.

How many times have we been in the Eastern Conference Championship game? How many Stanley Cup appearances? Can you say mis managed teams, OMG we only rank number 1 in all the category's.


Oh your right man we have nothing in Grand Rapids we just won the Calder Cup led by our prospects... Yeah that means nothing. Landing the big name free agents you mentioned sure has been working great for Min hey??? Oh wait Min doesn't have the management and prospect pool we do to make those 2 star players worth jack chit.


I would love to see you guys endure having a crappy GM who would trade off our team tank and try to build a new team that's only sustainable for a few cup runs and tanks for years again and again.

Red Wings have down years, but our down years we still make the playoffs and still have a chance to compete in playoffs just like last year. We also have years where we are cup favorites. Man we got it so bad.

You do realize that as fans we have the right to criticize both Babcock and Holland`s work. It doesnt mean no disrespect to them. It means that as fans we are engaged in what is going on. Chances are that Ken Holland would love to have a few take backs as far as bad contracts he has handed out. Just remember that if our top prospects would have been playing on the Red Wings fighting for the Stanley Cup they wouldnt have won the Calder. I would rather the Stanley just sayin



#35 jimmyemeryhunter

jimmyemeryhunter

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 898 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:50 PM

Criticize, fine.
But its kind of crazy to see how disrespectful A LOT of people talk about babs and holland.
So most of you agree our d should be great in five years.
So you halfway agree with what he's saying.
And Our forward prospects may not be future datsyuks/zetterbergs upfront, but they're bigger isnt that you wanted?

Manthas a giant.
Jurco could veryeasily turn into a datsyuk LIKE player, well never have another pasha, but he has the skill...
I just hope for half the work ethic in him that pav has, but...once again.
He's bigger.
Athanasiou should be helm with better hands.
And who knows where Jarkrok and frk will end up.
Add one, maybe two top six stars to that lineup in free agency(assuming tats and Gus dont become d or z level superstars) And boom.
Championship caliber team hands down.
can see where it would be easy to think were going downhill, but we've been spoiled and now fans are lashing out.

I'm from detroit, and the wings are a high point in a very bleak city.
I get that some of these decisions are bad, but seriously, were transitioning and are still competitive...
aside from the slump....

Question their decision making.
Fine.
But keep it within reason.
A lot of people on here sound like those spoiled kids on 16 and pregnant.

We have every right to expect the best.
Were the red wings, we compete for the cup every year.
But Have a little patience, and give the people whove earned it the faith they've shown they deserve.

#36 jimmyemeryhunter

jimmyemeryhunter

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 898 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:57 PM



And that being said.
I mean no offense to anyone on this site, your rants and raves and complaints are concerns I've had myself for this team, so its good to see someone else have them.
But after a loss this site gets very depressing, and I've been trying not to linger after gdts since this slump started.
Ha.
Everything will work out.
Were the em effing Detroit Red Wings.

#37 wings_fanatic

wings_fanatic

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,093 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:08 PM

After reading the comments today, if They send Nyquist down after the game tonight, then they should both be fired. That is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason to send him down after one game, I don't care about the waiver eligibility... get rid of Cleary, the guy who supposedly took a discount to stay here, despite the fact that he isn't worth loose change that I could find on the street. Cleary provides NOTHING to this team and seeing him on the top line with Pavs tonight is sickening and if the cherry on top of that is nyquist getting sent back down after tonight, then Kenny should be fired.



#38 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts

Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:28 PM

If and I am sure he will Gus is playing well, he has to get a spot on this team. Sending him down would complete an unreal mess by two of the best of hockeyminds in the NHL, highly doubt the best owner in all of sports would like it.


kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#39 GoalieManPat

GoalieManPat

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,363 posts
  • Location:Swartz Creek, MI

Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

Franzen was also instrumental and probably our most productive forward for 1 Stanley cup and another finals appearance. Blackhawks since winning the cup lost in first and second rounds and battled to barely make the playoffs.....Then won again (sigh)

 

Yes.....over 4 years ago. Pro sports are a what have you done for me lately business. And when you compare the two Franzen has done nothing compared to Hossa.

 

It wasn't just Mule or Hossa decision. It was a sign Mule & Hulder or re-sign Hossa decision. Even when Hudler left to go play in the KHL the following season we were still right near the cap without him here. Holland wanted two good players instead of one, but we all now how that worked out for us.

 

Exactly another case of Holland just plain making the wrong decision in the last five years.



#40 Hiei

Hiei

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,290 posts
  • Location:Centerton, AR via Mt. Carroll, IL

Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:45 AM

I respect Babs because he is doing with what he's got.

I respect Holland's earlier work.  But don't you tell me that during this 7 game skid that looking at Cleary trying to fight through it and seeing players out there that really should either be retired or playing off their final year in Florida for $$$$ really chaps my ass.

You also can't say that "FI-RE KEN-NY" didn't go through my head a couple times either.


"Hit em with your purse, ya *****!" - Random Wings fans shouting at Franziska






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users