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What Does This Team Need More/Most?


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#21 GMRwings1983

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:06 PM

It sure would be nice to have an enforcer but can that be the vision frankgrimes mentioned above ? It can be a patch for one or two seasons, it will give us a good feeling against tougher clubs like the sens last night, but will not lead us to a cup. What we need in first place, and i agree with kipwinger on that, is finding a way to get out PP and scoring going again. I know it's an overstreched and not well liked phrase around here but our Power Play should be our enforcer. Why ? Because who cares if our guys a rattled a little bit as long as the Wings win ? Sure, I like to have both, a real enforcer and a good goalscorer. But I have the feeling thats pretty hard to aquire in the cap-era and if I had to choose I take a sucsessfull, able-passing, "soft" team over a gritty, dirty team that isn't producing any day. Remember:  Why became the Wings one of the greatest franchise in hockey ? Not because we punch guys in the face a lot but because we played the best hockey in the NHL. Thats the main issue at the moment, everything else is just a nuisance. 

 

It'll definitely help me sleep better at night.  I slept a lot better when Downey was on the team.  


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#22 esteef

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:08 PM

It sure would be nice to have an enforcer but can that be the vision frankgrimes mentioned above ? It can be a patch for one or two seasons, it will give us a good feeling against tougher clubs like the sens last night, but will not lead us to a cup. What we need in first place, and i agree with kipwinger on that, is finding a way to get out PP and scoring going again. I know it's an overstreched and not well liked phrase around here but our Power Play should be our enforcer. Why ? Because who cares if our guys a rattled a little bit as long as the Wings win ? Sure, I like to have both, a real enforcer and a good goalscorer. But I have the feeling thats pretty hard to aquire in the cap-era and if I had to choose I take a sucsessfull, able-passing, "soft" team over a gritty, dirty team that isn't producing any day. Remember:  Why became the Wings one of the greatest franchise in hockey ? Not because we punch guys in the face a lot but because we played the best hockey in the NHL. Thats the main issue at the moment, everything else is just a nuisance. 


Kenny? Did you change your board name again?

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#23 darkmanx

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:16 PM

This team needs to get rid of Cleary, Quincey, Sammy, and Miller.

 

This team need's most to get a top 4 d-men that is capable of contributing offensively while playing good defense and move the puck, a physical top 6 winger that drives the net, and most importantly a new GM that make changes we need instead of what he thinks is best for the vets.



#24 derblaueClaus

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:22 PM

Kenny? Did you change your board name again?

esteef

 

Don't worry, I don't like our team. :P


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#25 Echolalia

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:42 PM

I think a reliable goal scorer for the top 6 would solve a lot of problems

#26 Dabura

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:44 PM

I think what really kills me is how good our last Cup-winning team was. And it wasn't because we'd gotten lucky in the draft or signed 80 all-star UFAs. It was just a really, really well-built team. There was a guiding vision and a strong identity, like frank talked about. We had everything you'd need to beat any team in a best-of-seven series: tons of skill, tons of (*high-quality*) sandpaper, a great goalie tandem, and a brilliant, hungry coach who felt he had something to prove.

 

How could The Powers That Be (Ken Holland) let things get so far away from that? What happened to just being super-smart and shrewd, as opposed to bloated and complacent? I mean, when Holland says, "You've just gotta make it into the playoffs, then anybody can win it"...does he honestly believe that? And don't point to LA. I hate it when people do that. Yes, they came in as an 8th seed, but that was a damn good team. And, interestingly enough, you know how their Powers That Be made it so damn good? They took an honest, sober look at the team and said, "You know what? We need to make changes." And that's what they did. They seriously addressed their weaknesses, and it paid off in the biggest of ways. They didn't say, "Hey, we're the LA Kings. No one even thought we'd make it this far. We're ahead of schedule. Let's just be happy about that and see where things go from there. Then, if it looks like we need to make changes, we'll make changes, provided we can find a dance partner who's willing to work with us. Because, you know, there's no Hockey Store. Derp." They didn't say that. They were highly objective.

 

So you say, "OK, fine. You wish Holland had done things differently. What would you have done differently, since you're so smart?"

 

Firstly, I'm not saying I'm so smart. I'm not saying I'd be a better GM than Ken Holland. We seriously take for granted what it takes to do the job he does. But, at the same time, we're a proud, winning organization...and now we're flopping about like a fish out of water on the deck of a boat. And I've gotta think Mr. I would say that's unacceptable, even if it is somewhat understandable. (No GM is going to be able to ice a legitimate contender every season. Doesn't work that way. We all know this.)

 

The big thorn in my side, the thing I always find myself coming back to, is Lidstrom's departure. It's crystal clear now that he wasn't just a legendary player for this team and organization - he was this team and organization, at least post-Yzerman. And, as far as I can tell, Holland just flat-out dropped the ball on the Nick-will-be-retiring-any-season-now-and-we're-gonna-have-to-be-more-than-ready front. Like, I get not being able to replace #5. But, holy crap, man, give us a better safety cushion than...um...nothing?! (OK, fine - Carlo Colaiacovo and Kyle Quincey.) And that's saying nothing of Stuart and Rafalski. We lose Stuart, Lidstrom, Rafalski, and...well, look at our friggin' blue line! What the hell happened there?!

 

But I could go on for days.

 

/weekly rant


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#27 Cloune

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:58 PM

 quality hockey players



#28 dirtydangles

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:15 PM

We - and almost every other team could use a Milan Lucic. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#29 Dabura

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:17 PM

But I go on these big rants, and then I think, "Maybe I'm just overthinking things. Maybe I'm not giving nearly enough credit to Ken Holland and the Wings organization. (I know I'm not.)"

 

Maybe if Kyle Quincey isn't on our team this season, we have a winning record at the 25-game mark and no one's talking about the possible demise of the Detroit Red Wings.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#30 Playmaker

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:28 PM

I think what really kills me is how good our last Cup-winning team was. And it wasn't because we'd gotten lucky in the draft or signed 80 all-star UFAs. It was just a really, really well-built team. There was a guiding vision and a strong identity, like frank talked about. We had everything you'd need to beat any team in a best-of-seven series: tons of skill, tons of (*high-quality*) sandpaper, a great goalie tandem, and a brilliant, hungry coach who felt he had something to prove.

 

How could The Powers That Be (Ken Holland) let things get so far away from that? What happened to just being super-smart and shrewd, as opposed to bloated and complacent? I mean, when Holland says, "You've just gotta make it into the playoffs, then anybody can win it"...does he honestly believe that? And don't point to LA. I hate it when people do that. Yes, they came in as an 8th seed, but that was a damn good team. And, interestingly enough, you know how their Powers That Be made it so damn good? They took an honest, sober look at the team and said, "You know what? We need to make changes." And that's what they did. They seriously addressed their weaknesses, and it paid off in the biggest of ways. They didn't say, "Hey, we're the LA Kings. No one even thought we'd make it this far. We're ahead of schedule. Let's just be happy about that and see where things go from there. Then, if it looks like we need to make changes, we'll make changes, provided we can find a dance partner who's willing to work with us. Because, you know, there's no Hockey Store. Derp." They didn't say that. They were highly objective.

 

So you say, "OK, fine. You wish Holland had done things differently. What would you have done differently, since you're so smart?"

 

Firstly, I'm not saying I'm so smart. I'm not saying I'd be a better GM than Ken Holland. We seriously take for granted what it takes to do the job he does. But, at the same time, we're a proud, winning organization...and now we're flopping about like a fish out of water on the deck of a boat. And I've gotta think Mr. I would say that's unacceptable, even if it is somewhat understandable. (No GM is going to be able to ice a legitimate contender every season. Doesn't work that way. We all know this.)

 

The big thorn in my side, the thing I always find myself coming back to, is Lidstrom's departure. It's crystal clear now that he wasn't just a legendary player for this team and organization - he was this team and organization, at least post-Yzerman. And, as far as I can tell, Holland just flat-out dropped the ball on the Nick-will-be-retiring-any-season-now-and-we're-gonna-have-to-be-more-than-ready front. Like, I get not being able to replace #5. But, holy crap, man, give us a better safety cushion than...um...nothing?! (OK, fine - Carlo Colaiacovo and Kyle Quincey.) And that's saying nothing of Stuart and Rafalski. We lose Stuart, Lidstrom, Rafalski, and...well, look at our friggin' blue line! What the hell happened there?!

 

But I could go on for days.

 

/weekly rant

I think it all went awry when the Wings were unable to secure Suter and Parise.  This team would have a totally different look and feel to it.  Once he lost out, he had no Plan B, and he still doesn't.



#31 dat's sick

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:45 PM

If Ottawa is so big and bad why are they not even in a playoff spot?

Let's be a little bit level headed: if our PP works okay in last night's game we win that game. We don't have to be able to outmuscle all teams, it's okay to be 'pushed around' as long as we actually win in the end. Last night the Wings lost their cool and also didn't execute on special teams. But they had every chance to win. Did Ottawa destroy Cooke after he took out Karlsson? Not really. These ain't the 90s anymore.

#32 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:00 PM

So many requests for things that aren't available. We have no cap space and no spots on the roster. Everything was sunny after the Carolina game and now the franchise is falling apart again, huh?

Name me 5 LEGIT top-4, puck-moving defensemen or power-forward type scorers that are available right now. Why is that so difficult? Because those players just don't become available anymore. Teams hang onto them like their lives depend on it.

The fixes have to come from in-house or they won't come at all. With that in mind, here it is:

1. Get reasonably healthy

We can't wait for DeKeyser to return to start winning again. Get Alfie back and start scoring goals again. Get the plugs off of the power-play and start shooting when you have a lane. Far too passive and inconsistent.

2. Find some consistency on defense

Find a way to bury the crap and let the cream rise to the top. Limit Quincey and Kindl's minutes and let Smith continue to play well with more minutes. You have to work around them in the lineup, unfortunately.

3. Stop finding ways to lose

This is the biggest elephant in the room. The team consistently finds ways to lose. Whether it's not enough offense, defensive mistakes, shoddy goaltending performances or a lack of a physical response, the Wings are always finding ways to lose games.

4. Waive Cleary and Quincey

I can't overstate how much better this team would be without these two in the lineup. Without even adding anyone to the roster, this team gets a little faster, more dangerous offensively, turns the puck over less and makes less mistakes in their own end. We have the organizational depth at defenseman to fill Quincey's roster spot. No one could possibly be any worse than he has been since being acquired. Same goes for Cleary. Anyone would really be better. Give the meatheads of LGW that actually think the biggest problem with this team is fighting majors Tootoo back, for all I care. Just get these two out of the lineup.

There are no top-4 defensemen or scoring power forwards waiting for us anytime soon. And even if there were, we have no room in any sense to accommodate them. If we really are as bad as everyone says, how have we managed to win 10 games? The team is slumping, not bad. Everyone slumps. I'm as frustrated with it as anyone else but the organization is not on the verge of collapse.

#33 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:00 PM

If Ottawa is so big and bad why are they not even in a playoff spot?

Let's be a little bit level headed: if our PP works okay in last night's game we win that game. We don't have to be able to outmuscle all teams, it's okay to be 'pushed around' as long as we actually win in the end. Last night the Wings lost their cool and also didn't execute on special teams. But they had every chance to win. Did Ottawa destroy Cooke after he took out Karlsson? Not really. These ain't the 90s anymore.

 

Seriously, Holland has a new nickname now? The Senators couldn't do anything against Cooke because the Penguins had a guy named Steven McIntyre on the bench, ready to go heck they extra called him up for that game. Otherhwise Neil or Kassasian would have went after Cooke.

 

Look at the cup winning teams they all had skill, size, grit and toughness you can not win with an all skilled team. Sometimes I am really wondering what it needs for some people to realize, that size is still needed and starplayers need ONICE protection. What's next Lucic or Engelland going after Danny K and the rest of the bunch is standing around waiting for ole Shanahan to call for a "tough" phonecall - seriously enough with this BS .

 

Yeah sadly these aren't the 90s anymore, because back then this actually was a team sure they were bad at the start but at least played as a unit and if you took cheapshots, Kocus, Probert or McCarty were always ready. I am calling it now, if Pavel Datsyuk has a concussion and Kenny Holland stands by his "PP is our enforcer" crap I want him fired, because this is a player who is not replaceable and if the GM isn't willing to sign guys who can protect him, then it's time for another GM.


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#34 esteef

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:04 PM

If Ottawa is so big and bad why are they not even in a playoff spot?

 

 

What difference does it make if they keep us from getting one?

 

We got pushed around and lost and it's now a mad scramble by the anti-fighting crowd to say " but but, the power play, the officiating!"  It couldn't possibly be that a team came into the Joe, intimidated the Wings, got in their face after whistles, threw elbows and won because of it.  It couldn't be that right?

 

esteef


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#35 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:06 PM

just an example:

cheapshot Kessel......answer to Orr, Frazer, McLaren or Clarkson

cheapshot Monahan, Bärtschi......answer to McGrattan

cheapshot Landeskog.....answer to Bordeleau

cheapshot Krug..answer to Thornton, Lucic, McQuaid and Chara

 

 

cheapshot PD....answer to .....no....ah yes the superb powerplay blowing 5 on 3s........body

 

Yeah I am gladly be living in the past, knowing that nobody is going to run this team out of their building and taking cheapshots. At least it is way better than living in the present with a GM who thinks this is soccer or basketball on ice.......


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blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#36 Dabura

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:08 PM

I think it all went awry when the Wings were unable to secure Suter and Parise.  This team would have a totally different look and feel to it.  Once he lost out, he had no Plan B, and he still doesn't.

 

My issue there is it shouldn't have come to that. It shouldn't have been Suter-and-Parise-or-bust. It should've been, "Well, we'd certainly love to have Suter and Parise, but we'll still be in very good shape if we don't land them." Instead, it was "We need these guys (more Suter than Parise) or we're majorly screwed." Tellingly, right after we struck out there, Holland's big thing became The Central Importance of Drafting Well and Promoting from Within, Not Trying to Bring in Outside Help. Because that's never been the Red Wing way! (*cough '99*, *cough '02*)


Don't Toews me, bro!


#37 dirtydangles

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:14 PM

This team doesn't necessarily need more of anything - it needs addition by subtraction then fill in the holes with hardworking young GR kids with something to prove. Having players with something to prove is part of being successful - look at Nyquist in his "proving" game. Players like Sammy, Cleary, Q, Bert have been there done that and seem happy just having the title of an NHL player - they already have big money, houses, families and are washed up - I want some desperation on our team. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#38 PumpIron

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:17 PM

We need a PWF like Lucic, can net the puck and fight as well as having a strong physical presence on the ice.



#39 Dabura

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:21 PM

If Ottawa is so big and bad why are they not even in a playoff spot?

 

I don't think playoff spots are really the main issue here. It's more (from where I stand, at least) that we got exposed on two fairly distinct fronts: we had no answer in terms of muscle and toughness, and we had no answer in terms of scoring. And, regarding that second one - it's true, all we have to do is score on one of those missed opportunities and we may very well win that game. But...doesn't that sound kinda familiar? Haven't we been saying, "All we have to do is score on one of those several thousand golden, gift-wrapped opportunities and we're in business" for awhile now? That's why I ask: Is it not toughness we need but, rather, clutch scoring? We didn't necessarily lose to the 'hawks because they out-toughed us. We couldn't buy a goal when we really, really, really needed one. Or you could take a different angle and say that more muscle and toughness would lead to more goals.

 

I'm not trying to make this a "WE NEED MOAR GOONS" show.


Edited by Dabura, 24 November 2013 - 02:54 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#40 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:26 PM

they need more deep dish hot 'n readys... ahem, sammy could you be a dear...


I would ask Cleary to go, but I fear he may fall on the way back and drop all the pizzas







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