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Babcock's system


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#1 Fonzarelli

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:35 PM

The wings have had trouble scoring for a couple of seasons, either straight up or on the pp. Some key personnel have left yet Babcock is trying to use the same system as if Stevie Y was still there. The players he has now cannot play this particular system. I remember when Rafalski played in the Olympics and played in a system where he excelled. Then he came back to the Wings and wasn' t the same. What system needs to be applied to get this team on the right track? Which coach would bring this system to Detroit? Right now, it's not Babcock.

#2 The Secret

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:33 PM

He needs a system where the players listen to him and do whats asked of them. SHOOT THE PUCK! MAKE THE SIMPLE PLAY! A part from Babcock playing in the game and doing it for them there is only so much he can do.

 

I could see it now, Babcock (in the stupidest managerial move in hockey history) gets let go by Detroit today at noon and at 12:01 the coach of Tampa Bay gets fired and at 12:01:30 Babcock has a coaching job in Tampa working for Yzerman!

 

You can't have a Stanley Cup winning team every year and we are 22 straight years in the playoff, longest running streak in all of the major pro sports!! Let him do his job, things will straighten out OR invent the electronic remote control device that Babcock can use from the bench to electricute the desired player at the time he needs to shoot rather than pass. It can also be used to punish a player after he has given the puck to the wrong team (which we should also blame on Babcock I suppose), taken a stupid penalty, gotten hurt for an extended period of time, etc.


Edited by The Secret, 25 November 2013 - 03:49 PM.


#3 esteef

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:59 PM

Maybe he's spending too much time worrying about Team Canada instead of focusing more on Team Red Wings.  If I was Tatar I would punch Babcock in the face.

 

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Edited by esteef, 24 November 2013 - 05:00 PM.

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#4 Ally

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:02 PM

I don't know if you've noticed this but when Babcock coaches other teams, they win.
This leads me to believe that Babs is not the problem.

 
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#5 Rhah

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:38 PM

I don't know if you've noticed this but when Babcock coaches other teams, they win.
This leads me to believe that Babs is not the problem.

 

You have to adjust the system to your personnel.

 

I live in Champaign where Bruce Weber (with some mighty fine talent) went to a National Championship game then tried to run the same system with sub par talent and sucked horribly until run out of town. You can't always run the same stuff when you have different players. Good coaches adjust and change and aren't so stubborn they refuse to adjust.

 

I am sure his system will look just fine when he is coaching a Canadian all-star team.


Edited by Rhah, 24 November 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#6 Ally

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:50 PM

You have to adjust the system to your personnel.
 
I live in Champaign where Bruce Weber (with some mighty fine talent) went to a National Championship game then tried to run the same system with sub par talent and sucked horribly until run out of town. You can't always run the same stuff when you have different players. Good coaches adjust and change and aren't so stubborn they refuse to adjust.
 
I am sure his system will look just fine when he is coaching a Canadian all-star team.


If you honestly believe that Babcock isn't one of the best (maybe THE best) in the league then I'm just gonna bow out of the discussion right now.

 
"Everything he does is exciting to watch.” -Holmstrom describes Datsyuk


#7 Rhah

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:40 PM

If you honestly believe that Babcock isn't one of the best (maybe THE best) in the league then I'm just gonna bow out of the discussion right now.

 

First of all, don't be a baby, there are several other people in thread (and on the site) to debate with even if you think I am 100% stupid. 

 

Second, I never said he wasn't the best, but even the best have flaws (such as being stubborn and being too loyal to veterans? trying to fit square pegs in round holes? playing Dan Cleary on your top line).



#8 Fonzarelli

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:39 PM

I can see Franzen now getting jolted every time he cruises.



#9 kipwinger

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:38 PM

I think my biggest problem with Bab's "system" is his stubborn insistence that every player is a perfect substitute stylistically (or at least could be) to every other player.  Because of this, you get specialized players playing in the wrong roles, because "hey, why not".  Why not put Datsyuk on Zetterberg's wing with Brunner (beginning of last season)? Why not put Filppula on Zetterberg's wing in spite of the fact that Filppula likes to pass and Z likes to shoot?  Why not play Abby on every line from first to fourth?  Why not make Smith and Kindl play away from their strengths?

 

Babs' system runs utterly contrary to a couple hundred years worth of evidence that specialization works really well in most facets of life.  You'd be a fool to try and grow corn in an area more suited for coffee production.  You'd be a fool to build a textile factory in Silicon Valley.  You'd be a fool to tell Stamkos to pass more and shoot less.  But for some reason Babs disagrees with this logic.  He must have skipped Econ 101 for Sports Psych 10...who gives a damn.


Edited by kipwinger, 25 November 2013 - 04:03 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#10 frankgrimes

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:42 PM

Either his system doesn't work OR/AND Babcock doesn't have the players for his system to work. No matter how one as looking at it both things are leading to the same resolution, change the system!

 

Puck posession is only working, if your team is ridiculously skilled, which this DetroitRedWings edition clearly is not. So what kind of system could work? I think a more tippetlike system could work better, because you don't need as much talent to fullfill it and it seems to work well for teams like the Coyotes.


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#11 dirtydangles

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:01 PM

Helm is actually ridiculously good at puck possession style. He gets deep with the puck and usually makes a good pass back to the point to set something up. Our bottom 6 got much better when he arrived.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#12 Red Crazy

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:57 PM

I don't think there is anything wrong with his system, its his line combo's that are out of whack. Saying that he wants Cleary playing with Pav to get him going is stupid. Cleary is DONE and it is only Babs that can't see this. Tatar is his new whipping boy, and he busts his ass every night and is doing very well with the ice time he is given and with the slugs he sometimes is stuck playing with. Tatar and Gus should be mad as hell with the way Babcock has treated them both. If Babcock would have wanted Gus up from the start of the year Kenny would have found a way.



#13 Dabura

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:33 PM

Let him do his job, things will straighten out OR invent the electronic remote control device that Babcock can use from the bench to electricute the desired player at the time he needs to shoot rather than pass. It can also be used to punish a player after he has given the puck to the wrong team (which we should also blame on Babcock I suppose), taken a stupid penalty, gotten hurt for an extended period of time, etc.

 

This is actually a really good idea. Someone get on this!


Don't Toews me, bro!


#14 Dabura

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:51 PM

frankgrimes, I'm liking where you're coming from lately. You touched on something in the Need thread and touched on it here as well. It's something I and at least a few others (e.g. haroldsnepsts) have harped on in the past. It's the notion that we are, arguably, deficient in many, if not most, categories. We're not skilled enough to play the kind of possession game we pioneered and perfected in the Yzerman Era, nor are we especially big or strong or mean or fast or quick or young or incredible on the PP and/or PK or strong in net. (OK, that last one might not be true. Jimmy is one of the best in the league - even if he hasn't been playing like it lately - and suddenly Monster is awesome.)

 

I just think that's worth considering when talking about systems and such.


Edited by Dabura, 25 November 2013 - 08:52 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#15 frankgrimes

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 02:18 AM

frankgrimes, I'm liking where you're coming from lately. You touched on something in the Need thread and touched on it here as well. It's something I and at least a few others (e.g. haroldsnepsts) have harped on in the past. It's the notion that we are, arguably, deficient in many, if not most, categories. We're not skilled enough to play the kind of possession game we pioneered and perfected in the Yzerman Era, nor are we especially big or strong or mean or fast or quick or young or incredible on the PP and/or PK or strong in net. (OK, that last one might not be true. Jimmy is one of the best in the league - even if he hasn't been playing like it lately - and suddenly Monster is awesome.)
 
I just think that's worth considering when talking about systems and such.


Thanks very good summary of the actual situation and I fully agree. Don't get me wrong, I think Babcock and Holland are superb GMs but maybe, just maybe they aren't the right ones for a rebuilding/retooling team. I truely believe, that Babcock can be too hard and expecting too much of young players, because it worked well with Z, Pasha and especially Stevie Y but the difference is, these guys are stars/superstars and holding young kids such as Tatar, Nyquist to such a standard is unfair. Personally I will be very happy if one of them turns out to be a solid top 6 guy with a nice scoring touch.

I would prefer a system, in which "lesser" talent can achieve more and that's obviously a more hardnosed defense first style. This situation might also be new for Babcock but in the end he is the HC and he has to deal with the current roster in the best possible way, if that means change the system and expect less from the players so be it.

as for the monster yes the guy has been playing great (given the D he has in front of him without Danny K), he hope he will get some back to back starts soon, he's deserving it.

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#16 T.Low

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:45 AM

In 24 GM's in Tampa, Filp has surpassed what he did in 41 GM's under Babcock. Hmm

#17 Rivalred

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:56 AM

He needs a system where the players listen to him and do whats asked of them. SHOOT THE PUCK! MAKE THE SIMPLE PLAY! A part from Babcock playing in the game and doing it for them there is only so much he can do.
 
I could see it now, Babcock (in the stupidest managerial move in hockey history) gets let go by Detroit today at noon and at 12:01 the coach of Tampa Bay gets fired and at 12:01:30 Babcock has a coaching job in Tampa working for Yzerman!
 
You can't have a Stanley Cup winning team every year and we are 22 straight years in the playoff, longest running streak in all of the major pro sports!! Let him do his job, things will straighten out OR invent the electronic remote control device that Babcock can use from the bench to electricute the desired player at the time he needs to shoot rather than pass. It can also be used to punish a player after he has given the puck to the wrong team (which we should also blame on Babcock I suppose), taken a stupid penalty, gotten hurt for an extended period of time, etc.


Have you seen how many shots on goal the wings have had the last few games? Wings are shooting the puck. Quality of scoring chances, plays, and rebounds is another issue along with turnovers and not shutting down the other teams effectively
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#18 pucktividi

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:45 PM

The majority of the roster are skilled european players.The prospects as well,but Babs constantly trying to play them North American style.What was wrong with the puck possesion style.It's not that I would like to see some bigger players around,but if you're building the team mostly from within,play the style the most suitable for your players.



#19 The Secret

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:43 AM

Have you seen how many shots on goal the wings have had the last few games? Wings are shooting the puck. Quality of scoring chances, plays, and rebounds is another issue along with turnovers and not shutting down the other teams effectively

Flips towards the net don't count... I mean lean into the shot and put some mustard on it (Darren Helm's rifle of a backhander comes to mind). A shot that has a chance to go in and if it doesnt there is a good chance there will be a rebound! Thats what is mean I think.



#20 T.Low

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:05 PM

Was the Boston game a change in fundamental strategy? Everybody looked faster, more aggressive, and more offensive minded.





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