I'd like to talk about this off-season/next season

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Emmerton is the only option. They don't have salary cap space to make any other recalls unless it was in case of emergency or use of LTIR. Holland's fault. I'm sure Babs would like to have a look at a player that has a future here, but he just can't right now.

i just checked ... emmertons salary is 533k ... callahan is 566k , we cant afford 30gs on our current cap????? id ratcher much have callahan for 2-3 games than emmerton, he's not a star forward but he's an agitator who can also fight and hit and as of recently in the ahl where hes been scoring im sure he'd pop the odd goal in the nhl ... time to see the kids

[Nev 1,085]

i just checked ... emmertons salary is 533k ... callahan is 566k , we cant afford 30gs on our current cap????? id ratcher much have callahan for 2-3 games than emmerton, he's not a star forward but he's an agitator who can also fight and hit and as of recently in the ahl where hes been scoring im sure he'd pop the odd goal in the nhl ... time to see the kids

Nope. When we called up Emmerton, someone tweeted that the Wings were quite literally $1000 short of being able to call up Callahan.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Setting my dislike of Franzen aside, it still makes the most sense to rid ourselves of that contract. If Holland were to trade him, he'd most definitely have to include a check for a lot of that salary to the team picking him up. I mentioned David Booth before (maybe it was in the Weiss thread) but I mentioned him getting back with Weiss to possibly reunite the chemistry they had in Florida. Someone said that Booth is doing very well right, and well, neither is Weiss at the moment and putting them back together wouldn't be good at all. An example I am going to use (and this doesn't mean the same will work for Weiss, but it has a chance to work) is Mike Richards and Jeff Carter. They were gangbusters in Philly, got traded top separate teams and they were both struggling to the point that people were calling them washed up. LA takes a chance, makes the deal to reunite them, and viola! Look at what they did together in LA! May or may not work, but Weiss needs a bit a familiarity to play with. I still say Franzen will be an all-star if he gets out there with the Sedins, if Sammy can score 35 with them, Franzen can top 40 with them. And just maybe reuniting Booth and Wiess would spark something. Trade Franzen and some cash (to cover part of his contract) to Vancouver for Booth, its a win-win situation for both teams...

I still maintain Holland needs to address the #1 right winger spot. Not sure who that would be, but there are a couple of high end guys out there that will be UFA. Most importantly we must say Goodbye to ALL of the pending UFA's on this team, with the only exception being Alfie, if he still wants to play and ONLY if he takes a similar contract. I am very happy with Gustavsson's play this year, but he is also playing to get a starting job. He will get a raise when he signs his next contract and for us, that is too much. Mrazek is ready to be Jimmy's back-up and successor in the future and is a very minimal cap hit. GR will continue on with Coreau and Paterson as their tandem. Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, and Quincey must go. If I could drop Q and Cleary today, I would.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - #1 Right Winger

Alfredsson - Weiss - Booth

Nyquist - Helm - Tatar

Miller - Andersson - Abdelkader

Sheahen/Ferraro

Kronwall - Ericsson

DeKeyser - Smith

Kindl - Lashoff

Ouellet

Howard

Mrazek

That roster is much improved over the current one...

Edited December 9, 2013 by LeftWinger

[joshy207 156]

I've heard Almquist is out of options next year, so he may be up over Ouellet. Also, Tootoo is still under contract for next year...

[rick zombo 3,739]

No way Ouellet is on the team next year as a #5-7. They'll want him and Sproul both playing big minutes in GRs.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Setting my dislike of Franzen aside, it still makes the most sense to rid ourselves of that contract. If Holland were to trade him, he'd most definitely have to include a check for a lot of that salary to the team picking him up. I mentioned David Booth before (maybe it was in the Weiss thread) but I mentioned him getting back with Weiss to possibly reunite the chemistry they had in Florida. Someone said that Booth is doing very well right, and well, neither is Weiss at the moment and putting them back together wouldn't be good at all. An example I am going to use (and this doesn't mean the same will work for Weiss, but it has a chance to work) is Mike Richards and Jeff Carter. They were gangbusters in Philly, got traded top separate teams and they were both struggling to the point that people were calling them washed up. LA takes a chance, makes the deal to reunite them, and viola! Look at what they did together in LA! May or may not work, but Weiss needs a bit a familiarity to play with. I still say Franzen will be an all-star if he gets out there with the Sedins, if Sammy can score 35 with them, Franzen can top 40 with them. And just maybe reuniting Booth and Wiess would spark something. Trade Franzen and some cash (to cover part of his contract) to Vancouver for Booth, its a win-win situation for both teams...

I still maintain Holland needs to address the #1 right winger spot. Not sure who that would be, but there are a couple of high end guys out there that will be UFA. Most importantly we must say Goodbye to ALL of the pending UFA's on this team, with the only exception being Alfie, if he still wants to play and ONLY if he takes a similar contract. I am very happy with Gustavsson's play this year, but he is also playing to get a starting job. He will get a raise when he signs his next contract and for us, that is too much. Mrazek is ready to be Jimmy's back-up and successor in the future and is a very minimal cap hit. GR will continue on with Coreau and Paterson as their tandem. Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, and Quincey must go. If I could drop Q and Cleary today, I would.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - #1 Right Winger

Alfredsson - Weiss - Booth

Nyquist - Helm - Tatar

Miller - Andersson - Abdelkader

Sheahen/Ferraro

Kronwall - Ericsson

DeKeyser - Smith

Kindl - Lashoff

Ouellet

Howard

Mrazek

That roster is much improved over the current one...

Other posters have said many times that you can't trade Franzen because if he retires there's a steep cap penalty against us. I don't know much about that, but it's been said enough that I trust it. Besides that, It has also been said many times that Franzen is a good cap hit for his production. Yes, he's inconsistent, but that's why he's not a higher cap hit. But, besides all this, he's really playing well at the moment. Maybe it's one of his streaks, but I've haven't seen him work like this in a while. Why call for him to be off the team now! Maybe you're thinking "trade while his value's high", but I'm an optomist and think maybe Franzen's turned some kind of corner at least for this season.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Setting my dislike of Franzen aside, it still makes the most sense to rid ourselves of that contract. If Holland were to trade him, he'd most definitely have to include a check for a lot of that salary to the team picking him up. I mentioned David Booth before (maybe it was in the Weiss thread) but I mentioned him getting back with Weiss to possibly reunite the chemistry they had in Florida. Someone said that Booth is doing very well right, and well, neither is Weiss at the moment and putting them back together wouldn't be good at all. An example I am going to use (and this doesn't mean the same will work for Weiss, but it has a chance to work) is Mike Richards and Jeff Carter. They were gangbusters in Philly, got traded top separate teams and they were both struggling to the point that people were calling them washed up. LA takes a chance, makes the deal to reunite them, and viola! Look at what they did together in LA! May or may not work, but Weiss needs a bit a familiarity to play with. I still say Franzen will be an all-star if he gets out there with the Sedins, if Sammy can score 35 with them, Franzen can top 40 with them. And just maybe reuniting Booth and Wiess would spark something. Trade Franzen and some cash (to cover part of his contract) to Vancouver for Booth, its a win-win situation for both teams...

I still maintain Holland needs to address the #1 right winger spot. Not sure who that would be, but there are a couple of high end guys out there that will be UFA. Most importantly we must say Goodbye to ALL of the pending UFA's on this team, with the only exception being Alfie, if he still wants to play and ONLY if he takes a similar contract. I am very happy with Gustavsson's play this year, but he is also playing to get a starting job. He will get a raise when he signs his next contract and for us, that is too much. Mrazek is ready to be Jimmy's back-up and successor in the future and is a very minimal cap hit. GR will continue on with Coreau and Paterson as their tandem. Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, and Quincey must go. If I could drop Q and Cleary today, I would.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - #1 Right Winger

Alfredsson - Weiss - Booth

Nyquist - Helm - Tatar

Miller - Andersson - Abdelkader

Sheahen/Ferraro

Kronwall - Ericsson

DeKeyser - Smith

Kindl - Lashoff

Ouellet

Howard

Mrazek

That roster is much improved over the current one...

Stopped reading at David Booth. We're the panthers retirement home when you just don't want to work anymore

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Two Questions for people who believe there's a chance we move Franzen.

1. When in the last decade (or ever) has Ken Holland traded away an established player from this team. I recall Jason Williams. Kozlov and Ward if you go over a decade.

2. Why would he choose now to shake up the team? Why trade one of our top goal scorers when one of our greatest needs is secondary scoring. He's not as easy to replace as some people think.

[Guest DeGraa55]

“We have some more down there. (Luke) Glendening could help us for sure, (Xavier) Ouellet and (Ryan) Sproul as well. It’s good to have players knocking on the door.”

why is babcock so in love glendening? i know hes a responsible player but he will never be more than a 4th liner, meanwhile we got sheahan ferraro and callahan who are out of waiver options after the season and theres no mention of them

we have to bring them up for a few games and test them out , i know emmerton is a veteran but they should seriously send him down now and call one of them up ... emmerton has no future ijn detroit

That's because Ferraro and Callahan will be nothing more than fourth liners. Sheahan is a surprise....I personally felt he shouldve been up this year. But you know cleary and Sammy brings more I guess....LOL

[LeftWinger 4,934]

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty?

...if he retires before his contract while he is still a Red Wing, yes, there is a cap penalty on us, BUT if we trade him, the other team assumes his contract thus making them responsible for a cap hit if he retires early. He is more than tradable, as a matter of fact he is about the only valuable asset we have that IS tradable.

That being said, Holland seems blind when it comes to making the right choices for the current team, so I unfortunately see that he more than likely will not trade him, nor buy him out. But I maintain that in the business world that is called the NHL, trading him now or buying him out later makes the MOST business sense for the Detroit Red Wings. In 2 years, Franzen will be playing just about as good as Cleary is right now and then 99% of you guys will be screaming at his cap hit when he is only putting in 5 goals all season long.

Go ahead and be excited about him now, enjoy his little hot streak, but don't be too upset when he fails to surpass the 30 goal make again, if he even gets to 20, which I am doubting he will be able to do.

You want to talk about next season and making this team better, then talk about this team without Franzen, because he will be a detriment to this team and his $4M dollars and roster spot can be put to better use.

and regarding Booth, I am just looking at ways to possibly jump start our $5M man that was supposed to be our answer to the 2nd line woes. Unlike most of his critics, I am not going to judge him on 20+ games. At least wait until he is a few years into his contract to pass judgment. Hell, you guys are still nursing on Franzen's teat from his 2009 season. He hasn't done crap since and nobody is calling for his head (well a few of us are.) Everyone keeps saying "when playoff Franzen returns." Blah, Blah...it's time to cut him loose. Franzen has been non-existent for 4 years and yet, he is still our savior...I don't get it.

[Franzine 739]

Really? So what exactly do I not know anything about?

Johan Franzen.

[Bannedforlife 403]

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Oh! Ok, ya, you are right. I know nothing about Johan Franzen.

So why don't you "experts" (term used loosely) educate me on Johan Franzen and tell ALL of us Franzen haters just why we are so wrong about him...because all I see from you guys is "Playoff Franzen" and "one of the best scorers in the league." I am either blind or have been watching an entire different Franzen the last 4 seasons...

...remind me, but I also seem to recall that back in the day I also "didn't know anything about" Jiri Hudler when I was against him so much and by time his contract was up, 95% of his supporters back then were against him because he turned into crap on this team. The same thing will happen to Franzen before his contract is up, and then he will be a detriment to this team, much like Cleary is now...oh BTW, back when everyone loved Cleary, I was berating him and saying how I felt he was no better than a 3rd liner and how he has no business being in the top 6 ever and I was also told I didn't know crap back then. Well, he was no better than a third liner then, he proved it when he played well in the bottom 6 and totally sucked in the top 6, but no, I didn't know anything about hockey. Just because most of us are not GM's, Coaches, Scout's, etc...doesn't mean we haven't followed the game and the players long enough to know or have gut feelings about players and can judge NHL talent. I am sure most of us have an inclining on doing just that, some of us just may be even smarter or better than some of the current GM's in the league....just maybe the ones that are just didn't take the right career path to lead them to become a GM in the NHL...doesn't mean they aren't just as smart or know less about the game of Hockey...

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty?

...if he retires before his contract while he is still a Red Wing, yes, there is a cap penalty on us, BUT if we trade him, the other team assumes his contract thus making them responsible for a cap hit if he retires early. He is more than tradable, as a matter of fact he is about the only valuable asset we have that IS tradable.

Wrong.

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...

Right.

[Guest DeGraa55]

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...

Just more reason to buy him out.

He is a 25 goal scorer that brings nothing else to the table.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Since you're so fond of bringing up the past, I seem to recall the night the Wings lost game 4 to Nashville in the 2008 playoffs, when you unleashed an epic rant that culminated with you promising to burn all of your jerseys and forsake the team for eternity. What an impressive display of hockey knowledge that was...

I will admit I did not know about that part of the CBA, but maybe explain it to me so that I do know, instead of being condescending and attacking me. Both of which can get you suspended...

oh regarding this last post I quoted, back then I had a drinking problem, marriage problems and a couple of other things that all got turned around a couple of years down the road, but again thanks for keeping the discussion going by just attacking someone with stuff that is totally unrelated to the thread...

[Dabura 12,206]

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty?

Didn't we establish that the penalty would never exceed $3 million? Or am I coming back into this conversation really cold?

I just don't see much of an argument for buying him out. The penalty would be tiny, even more so with the cap going up - and he's still producing. Maybe his production dries up a year or two or three from now, but that knocks our cap down just a tiny bit (less than $3 million) for several seasons. I mean, I guess it'd be one thing if Holland liked spending to the cap. But this year is weird, definitely not standard Holland ("We've got all of this money saved up just in case an all-star falls into my lap at the trade deadline. Not that that's going to happen. But look, I filled a swimming pool with money! How cool is that!!!") And if our team is getting younger, our payroll will probably be more manageable than usual.

Like someone said yesterday, Franzen still has that x-factor potential. That, plus 25 goals and some size (whether he's a true power-forward or not, we are ridiculously small up front and therefore need all the size we can get), and maybe a mentoring role for the kids, and the fact that we're "offensively challenged," makes him worth keeping. IMHO.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Dabura

[LeftWinger 4,934]

all valid points and taken well...but my statement you quoted was me questioning someone else's statement. Turns out I missed that conversation before and I was in the wrong thinking we didn't get penalized. Then it turned into something else.

[VM1138 1,921]

There's not really a reason to buy out Franzen. The penalty will be pocket change, especially with a higher cap.

Unless he suddenly disappears again he's here to stay. Unless a trade could land a top 10 player.

At any rate the compliance buyout will be used on Tootoo. All our other problems are UFAs and Babcock seems to have little intention of using Tootoo ever again. We can always use a good old fashioned buyout in the future if we need to do so.

And I would strongly urge everyone to stay away from making this debate personal. Cooler heads.

[ogreslayer 1,069]

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...

Ahem...that's not exactly correct. The cap recapture penalty can apply to both the original team that signed the deal AND the team the player is traded to. It is all based on the team(s) that benefit from years in which the player's salary exceeds his cap hit. Let's use Franzen as an example. If the Wings traded him this offseason, they would be on the hook for 5 seasons where his salary each year exceeded his $3.9m cap hit. He still has 2 more seasons left at $5m each that would then apply to the team he was traded to if he retired early, not as you stated the team that originally signed the deal.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

So uh... I'm just going to leave this here. Reading the last page, I'm not sure I'm in the right thread, but here it goes:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Nyquist

Mule-Weiss-Alfie

Abs-Helm-Tatar

Miller-Sheahan-Ferraro

Andersson, Callahan

Kronner-Ericsson

Smith-DeKeyser

Kindl-Lashoff

Almquist

Howard

Gustavsson

This is my hope for next season's team. Keep in mind, it has Weiss playing well, and Smith taking a step up.

I know this roster won't likely be close to the cap, but I think it gives a good chance for the young players to grow, even if we leave some money on the table. Perhaps they could upgrade at center somehow. Given management's track record, I doubt they let that many vets go, but it's what I'd like to see.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

none of this contributes anything to the actual thread topic.

And this comment contributes what exactly? lol

The discussion of Franzen's buyout stipulations was on topic and then kinda went off the rails.

Regardless I think it was shown that the benefit of keeping him far outweighs any penalties or trade scenarios.

Above all this off-season I'd just like to see us add a top 2 defenceman. Will probably cost a decent amount but we have strong depth of the farm.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I'm running out of new ways to say this, but:

Play nice in the thread. All facewashes, slewfoots and buttends will result in suspension.

It would be nice if people used their hockey knowledge as something to share with people instead of a tool to bludgeon them with.

And I can't think of a hockey analogy for this right now but

Stay on Topic.

Game on.

[Richdg 267]

I just want to see all the old broken down 40 year olds gone. Once that happens then I will be glad to talk about new lineups. Until Bert, Cleary, Franzen, Alfie, Sammy, did I miss any..... are gone and off of the roster, we are treading water at best. Wish we could find a way to get rid of Weiss and his contract as well, but that will not happen until he shows he can produce again, in which case Holland will want to keep him.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I just want to see all the old broken down 40 year olds gone. Once that happens then I will be glad to talk about new lineups. Until Bert, Cleary, Franzen, Alfie, Sammy, did I miss any..... are gone and off of the roster, we are treading water at best. Wish we could find a way to get rid of Weiss and his contract as well, but that will not happen until he shows he can produce again, in which case Holland will want to keep him.

I agree keep some cap flexibillity if there aren't any homering Ufa players available or don't want to come here. The former mentioned ones need to be gone for sure. Replacing big Bert will not be easy but there are enough young players with skill and size. My ideal choice would be Bordelau if he becomes available.