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I'd like to talk about this off-season/next season


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#161 LeftWinger

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:35 PM

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty?

 

...if he retires before his contract while he is still a Red Wing, yes, there is a cap penalty on us, BUT if we trade him, the other team assumes his contract thus making them responsible for a cap hit if he retires early.  He is more than tradable, as a matter of fact he is about the only valuable asset we have that IS tradable. 

 

That being said, Holland seems blind when it comes to making the right choices for the current team, so I unfortunately see that he more than likely will not trade him, nor buy him out.  But I maintain that in the business world that is called the NHL, trading him now or buying him out later makes the MOST business sense for the Detroit Red Wings.  In 2 years, Franzen will be playing just about as good as Cleary is right now and then 99% of you guys will be screaming at his cap hit when he is only putting in 5 goals all season long.

 

Go ahead and be excited about him now, enjoy his little hot streak, but don't be too upset when he fails to surpass the 30 goal make again, if he even gets to 20, which I am doubting he will be able to do.

 

You want to talk about next season and making this team better, then talk about this team without Franzen, because he will be a detriment to this team and his $4M dollars and roster spot can be put to better use.

 

and regarding Booth, I am just looking at ways to possibly jump start our $5M man that was supposed to be our answer to the 2nd line woes.  Unlike most of his  critics, I am not going to judge him on 20+ games.  At least wait until he is a few years into his contract to pass judgment.  Hell, you guys are still nursing on Franzen's teat from his 2009 season.  He hasn't done crap since and nobody is calling for his head (well a few of us are.)  Everyone keeps saying "when playoff Franzen returns."  Blah, Blah...it's time to cut him loose.  Franzen has been non-existent for 4 years and yet, he is still our savior...I don't get it.


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#162 Franzine

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:55 PM

Really? So what exactly do I not know anything about?

 

Johan Franzen.



#163 Bannedforlife

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:59 PM

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

 

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...



#164 LeftWinger

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:20 PM

Oh! Ok, ya, you are right. I know nothing about Johan Franzen.

 

So why don't you "experts" (term used loosely) educate me on Johan Franzen and tell ALL of us Franzen haters just why we are so wrong about him...because all I see from you guys is "Playoff Franzen" and "one of the best scorers in the league." I am either blind or have been watching an entire different Franzen the last 4 seasons...

 

...remind me, but I also seem to recall that back in the day I also "didn't know anything about" Jiri Hudler when I was against him so much and by time his contract was up, 95% of his supporters back then were against him because he turned into crap on this team. The same thing will happen to Franzen before his contract is up, and then he will be a detriment to this team, much like Cleary is now...oh BTW, back when everyone loved Cleary, I was berating him and saying how I felt he was no better than a 3rd liner and how he has no business being in the top 6 ever and I was also told I didn't know crap back then.  Well, he was no better than a third liner then, he proved it when he played well in the bottom 6 and totally sucked in the top 6, but no, I didn't know anything about hockey.  Just because most of us are not GM's, Coaches, Scout's, etc...doesn't mean we haven't followed the game and the players long enough to know or have gut feelings about players and can judge NHL talent.  I am sure most of us have an inclining on doing just that, some of us just may be even smarter or better than some of the current GM's in the league....just maybe the ones that are just didn't take the right career path to lead them to become a GM in the NHL...doesn't mean they aren't just as smart or know less about the game of Hockey...


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#165 Son of a Wing

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:28 PM

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty?

 

...if he retires before his contract while he is still a Red Wing, yes, there is a cap penalty on us, BUT if we trade him, the other team assumes his contract thus making them responsible for a cap hit if he retires early.  He is more than tradable, as a matter of fact he is about the only valuable asset we have that IS tradable. 

 

Wrong.

 

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

 

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...

 

Right.


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#166 DeGraa55

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:55 PM

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.
 
Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...



Just more reason to buy him out.


He is a 25 goal scorer that brings nothing else to the table.

#167 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:09 AM

Since you're so fond of bringing up the past, I seem to recall the night the Wings lost game 4 to Nashville in the 2008 playoffs, when you unleashed an epic rant that culminated with you promising to burn all of your jerseys and forsake the team for eternity. What an impressive display of hockey knowledge that was...

I will admit I did not know about that part of the CBA, but maybe explain it to me so that I do know, instead of being condescending and attacking me. Both of which can get you suspended...

 

oh regarding this last post I quoted, back then I had a drinking problem, marriage problems and a couple of other things that all got turned around a couple of years down the road, but again thanks for keeping the discussion going by just attacking someone with stuff that is totally unrelated to the thread...


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#168 Dabura

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:50 AM

....we can't trade Franzen because if he retires we will be hit with a steep cap penalty?

 

Didn't we establish that the penalty would never exceed $3 million? Or am I coming back into this conversation really cold?

 

I just don't see much of an argument for buying him out. The penalty would be tiny, even more so with the cap going up - and he's still producing. Maybe his production dries up a year or two or three from now, but that knocks our cap down just a tiny bit (less than $3 million) for several seasons. I mean, I guess it'd be one thing if Holland liked spending to the cap. But this year is weird, definitely not standard Holland ("We've got all of this money saved up just in case an all-star falls into my lap at the trade deadline. Not that that's going to happen. But look, I filled a swimming pool with money! How cool is that!!!") And if our team is getting younger, our payroll will probably be more manageable than usual.

 

Like someone said yesterday, Franzen still has that x-factor potential. That, plus 25 goals and some size (whether he's a true power-forward or not, we are ridiculously small up front and therefore need all the size we can get), and maybe a mentoring role for the kids, and the fact that we're "offensively challenged," makes him worth keeping. IMHO.


Edited by Dabura, 10 December 2013 - 11:22 AM.

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#169 LeftWinger

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 12:01 PM

all valid points and taken well...but my statement you quoted was me questioning someone else's statement. Turns out I missed that conversation before and I was in the wrong thinking we didn't get penalized. Then it turned into something else.


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#170 VM1138

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 12:51 PM

There's not really a reason to buy out Franzen. The penalty will be pocket change, especially with a higher cap.

Unless he suddenly disappears again he's here to stay. Unless a trade could land a top 10 player.

At any rate the compliance buyout will be used on Tootoo. All our other problems are UFAs and Babcock seems to have little intention of using Tootoo ever again. We can always use a good old fashioned buyout in the future if we need to do so.

And I would strongly urge everyone to stay away from making this debate personal. Cooler heads.
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#171 ogreslayer

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:14 PM

The new CBA, specifically the cap recapture provision, specifically the part that states that the penalty applies to the team that originally signed the deal, not the team that owns the player when he retires.

 

Plus, many other things related to the "business world that is called the NHL"...

 

Ahem...that's not exactly correct.  The cap recapture penalty can apply to both the original team that signed the deal AND the team the player is traded to.  It is all based on the team(s) that benefit from years in which the player's salary exceeds his cap hit.  Let's use Franzen as an example.  If the Wings traded him this offseason, they would be on the hook for 5 seasons where his salary each year exceeded his $3.9m cap hit.  He still has 2 more seasons left at $5m each that would then apply to the team he was traded to if he retired early, not as you stated the team that originally signed the deal. 



#172 Jesusberg

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:41 PM

So uh... I'm just going to leave this here. Reading the last page, I'm not sure I'm in the right thread, but here it goes:

 

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Nyquist

Mule-Weiss-Alfie

Abs-Helm-Tatar

Miller-Sheahan-Ferraro

Andersson, Callahan

 

Kronner-Ericsson

Smith-DeKeyser

Kindl-Lashoff

Almquist

 

Howard

Gustavsson

 

This is my hope for next season's team. Keep in mind, it has Weiss playing well, and Smith taking a step up.

I know this roster won't likely be close to the cap, but I think it gives a good chance for the young players to grow, even if we leave some money on the table. Perhaps they could upgrade at center somehow. Given management's track record, I doubt they let that many vets go, but it's what I'd like to see.



#173 Son of a Wing

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:12 PM

none of this contributes anything to the actual thread topic.

 

And this comment contributes what exactly? lol

 

The discussion of Franzen's buyout stipulations was on topic and then kinda went off the rails.

 

Regardless I think it was shown that the benefit of keeping him far outweighs any penalties or trade scenarios.

 

Above all this off-season I'd just like to see us add a top 2 defenceman.  Will probably cost a decent amount but we have strong depth of the farm.


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#174 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:58 PM

I'm running out of new ways to say this, but:

 

Play nice in the thread.  All facewashes, slewfoots and buttends will result in suspension. 

 

It would be nice if people used their hockey knowledge as something to share with people instead of a tool to bludgeon them with.

 

And I can't think of a hockey analogy for this right now but

 

Stay on Topic.

 

Game on.



#175 Richdg

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:07 PM

I just want to see all the old broken down 40 year olds gone. Once that happens then I will be glad to talk about new lineups. Until Bert, Cleary, Franzen, Alfie, Sammy, did I miss any..... are gone and off of the roster, we are treading water at best. Wish we could find a way to get rid of Weiss and his contract as well, but that will not happen until he shows he can produce again, in which case Holland will want to keep him.



#176 frankgrimes

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:44 AM

I just want to see all the old broken down 40 year olds gone. Once that happens then I will be glad to talk about new lineups. Until Bert, Cleary, Franzen, Alfie, Sammy, did I miss any..... are gone and off of the roster, we are treading water at best. Wish we could find a way to get rid of Weiss and his contract as well, but that will not happen until he shows he can produce again, in which case Holland will want to keep him.


I agree keep some cap flexibillity if there aren't any homering Ufa players available or don't want to come here. The former mentioned ones need to be gone for sure. Replacing big Bert will not be easy but there are enough young players with skill and size. My ideal choice would be Bordelau if he becomes available.

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#177 nawein

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:14 AM

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Lineup
FORWARDS
Todd Bertuzzi ($1.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Thomas Vanek ($9.500m)
Tomas Tatar ($1.200m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Drew Miller ($1.350m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Riley Sheahan ($0.715m) / Luke Glendening ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($4.250m)
Danny DeKeyser ($2.150m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Dan Girardi ($6.750m) / Adam Almquist ($0.700m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.900m)
BUYOUTS
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Jordin Tootoo ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,839,545; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,260,455

I would kill for this roster next season. Everyone is talking about waiting for the kids and save money for the kids but then turn around and it's ZOMG Pav and Z are getting old time is running out we need to win now. Let's do both. I feel like I overpaid for Vanek and Girardi to getthem to come here, on two year deals. Bert back on a year to year basis. We all know Kenny will leave Jurco, Mantha, Sproul and Ouellet in the minors long enough to drive us all nuts so why not have stars taking their spots instead of plugs? By the time Kenny feels like they're ready Vanek and Girardi's contracts will be up and we'll have kid replacements.

Also say this roster wins us the cup next year and the kids seem ready, the two year deals enable us be sellers at the 2015/2016 season trade deadline with one or both of those guys. I feel like we have enough depth to do that and not hurt the team too much, while we get picks to restock the farm system.

Obviously lines are arbitrary but if Weiss can put it together this is what I'd like to see.

#178 DeGraa55

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:41 AM

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Lineup
FORWARDS
Todd Bertuzzi ($1.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Thomas Vanek ($9.500m)
Tomas Tatar ($1.200m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Drew Miller ($1.350m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Riley Sheahan ($0.715m) / Luke Glendening ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($4.250m)
Danny DeKeyser ($2.150m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Dan Girardi ($6.750m) / Adam Almquist ($0.700m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.900m)
BUYOUTS
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Jordin Tootoo ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,839,545; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,260,455
I would kill for this roster next season. Everyone is talking about waiting for the kids and save money for the kids but then turn around and it's ZOMG Pav and Z are getting old time is running out we need to win now. Let's do both. I feel like I overpaid for Vanek and Girardi to getthem to come here, on two year deals. Bert back on a year to year basis. We all know Kenny will leave Jurco, Mantha, Sproul and Ouellet in the minors long enough to drive us all nuts so why not have stars taking their spots instead of plugs? By the time Kenny feels like they're ready Vanek and Girardi's contracts will be up and we'll have kid replacements.
Also say this roster wins us the cup next year and the kids seem ready, the two year deals enable us be sellers at the 2015/2016 season trade deadline with one or both of those guys. I feel like we have enough depth to do that and not hurt the team too much, while we get picks to restock the farm system.
Obviously lines are arbitrary but if Weiss can put it together this is what I'd like to see.


I think we need a good scoring winger or two but no one is worth 9.5m right now. I would like vanek but cheaper.

The other thing is you don't pay someone 6m to be on the third pairing on d. Especially when we got kindl lashoff and slmquist who could fill that role in the short term longer term oullete and Sproul. Instead of spending that much on a d I'd. Rather see us trade for a good winger or buy another one along with vanek. We have the depth and skill at d we need help up front....and it doesn't need to be pass first two way playing guys either. We have enough we need one or two legitimate scoring threats and if they have size....EVEN BETTER.

Edited by DeGraa55, 11 December 2013 - 04:43 AM.


#179 nawein

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:49 AM

I agree that no one is worth 9.5m right now, or maybe ever, but with the increase in cap and lack of star FA's I could see Vanek getting 8.5-9. And to get him to come here over Minnesota we'll have to over pay.

You're right about Girardi, I honestly didn't give the D pairs much thought. In my perfect world it would be Kronner-DK, Girardi-Smith, E-Almquist. E with Almquist because they will never see the other teams stars, making it easier for E to compensate for Almquist's defensive shortcomings. Also I really don't see Kindl as part of the future on our blue line so I traded him so I could use his cap space.

If the D remains how it is this year so we can get two scoring wingers, there's really not many viable options. While I'm all for power forwards and would love to have one, the reality is they're not available. Teams just don't trade them. So the only real ways to get one are to develop one (I still have my hopes up for Frk) or the FA market. The only decent gritty "power forward" that could hit the market in my opinion is Callahan. I don't see him leaving New York and even if he did I think he would disappoint here offensively. As far as non power forward scorers go Gaborik could be an option, but all he brings is offense and even that has been underwhelming lately. Moulson could be an option to play on the first line bit he reminds me of a more awkward version of Franzen and I'm not a huge fan. The three best options in my opinion are Vanek, Marleau, and Steen. I'd be happy with any combination of them.

All of that said though I think Girardi over Kindl makes us better than Marleau/Steen over Bertuzzi (assuming he's who we wouldn't sign) would.

#180 Dabura

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 11:37 AM

George's crazy theory: what the Wings really need is a #3 defenseman [Malik]

 

We need a solid top-four defenseman very, very badly. If we're gonna land one, it's probably gonna have to be via trade. I like George's idea: Alex Edler. He's struggling badly right now, and there's a long history of us being interested in him (wanted to draft him, later almost traded for him). I think I've said this before, but I wonder if they'd take something like Quincey + Kindl + Pulkkinen + 1st. I realize that would take a bite out of our depth on the back end, but we've got several young studs who are very close to making the jump to the big league. And I realize we'd probably have to move some more salary to to be able to fit Edler in (haven't done the math), but I trust Holland would be able to work something out if it meant solidifying our top-four.


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