Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Retaliation


  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#1 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:38 PM

Let me start off by saying IMHO retaliation is one of the most important parts of Hockey, it keeps the other team honest and protects your own best players. There are teams that do it well and the right way, there are teams that take it too far, and there are teams that don't do it at all.

More times than not the Wings fall into the third category and while keeping a cool head and leaving emotions out of it is an important and difficult aspect of games in some situations not responding sends the wrong message.

Let's take tonight's Wings Senators game. Good win but a disappointing game, it looked like none of the players on the ice cared that Datsyuk was blatantly elbowed. Now I wasn't looking for the Wings to goon it up but can someone lay a big hit or crash the net or do one of a million things that would show the rest of the league that we won't stand for our stars getting pummeled every night. Winning is the most important thing and I'm not naive,I wasn't really expecting them to do anything but was hoping, because not doing anything speaks volumes.

In baseball if the opposing pitcher hits your best player intentionally your pitcher is expected to hit the other team's best player not injure him or anything just show that things of that nature won't be tolerated. And if there is no retribution it sends a message to your star player that you as a pitcher don't have his back and it also tells the other teams in the league that it's open season.

Now I don't presume to know what the mood is like in the Wings locker room regarding this issue or how the top Wings players feel to have a bullseye on
their backs knowing that if push came to shove more likely than not no one in that locker room will have their back, or maybe they don't care at all. What I do know is that the Wings are damn lucky that Datsyuk and Zetterberg have stayed as healthy as they have while getting run constantly without any repercussions.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#2 jimmyemeryhunter

jimmyemeryhunter

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 794 posts

Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:55 PM

That's not the wings style, they're above that.
They won the game, and didn't stoop to their level.
The league isn't gonna stand up and decide to try to hurt two of the nicest, most professional superstars in the league just because we didn't go out and try to intentionally hurt another teams stars...
It's mutual respect, which 95% of players have for one another, which is why goons are becoming scarce.

#3 Opie

Opie

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,419 posts
  • Location:The only Henniker on Earth!

Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:58 PM

Lol getting run constantly!

Other than this time and Weber smashing Z tell me another one of the constant running.

Otherwise your understanding of the word constantly may be a touch off.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#4 jollymania

jollymania

    Heavy Hitter

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,606 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:05 AM

The elbow was not an inherently dirty play, illegal yes, dirty not so much. Neil played the entire game against abdelkader who is pretty much the only guy who would go after cowen so there was no way it was going to happen. Abdelkader would have made a fool out of himself. That is the same reason why helm and abdelkader weren't dishing out big hits. Kronwall tried a few times but the guy is clearly stuck in a hitting rut.


"I assure you the hits along the boards he(Aaron Downey) constantly threw SEVERAL TIMES EVERY SHIFT were far more damaging hits that what Kronwall throws."
- uk_redwing
HockeyArchive Twitter

#5 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:07 AM

That's not the wings style, they're above that.
They won the game, and didn't stoop to their level.
The league isn't gonna stand up and decide to try to hurt two of the nicest, most professional superstars in the league just because we didn't go out and try to intentionally hurt another teams stars...
It's mutual respect, which 95% of players have for one another, which is why goons are becoming scarce.

Where in my entire post did you see me advocating hurting or injuring players on the other team?
Making a hit is part of hockey, crashing the net is part of hockey as is standing up for your best players.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#6 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:14 AM

Lol getting run constantly!
Other than this time and Weber smashing Z tell me another one of the constant running.
Otherwise your understanding of the word constantly may be a touch off.

My understanding of constantly is spot on just because Datsyuk is quick enough to avoid a big check doesn't mean teams don't throw them.
As far as another instance how about Kronwall getting run into the boards a couple years ago.
Gooning is bad for the sport being tough is not.

Edited by wings87, 02 December 2013 - 12:20 AM.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#7 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:19 AM

The elbow was not an inherently dirty play, illegal yes, dirty not so much. Neil played the entire game against abdelkader who is pretty much the only guy who would go after cowen so there was no way it was going to happen. Abdelkader would have made a fool out of himself. That is the same reason why helm and abdelkader weren't dishing out big hits. Kronwall tried a few times but the guy is clearly stuck in a hitting rut.


I agree play wasn't dirty but as has been said since kindergarten you are responsible for your own arms, you can't just waive them around carelessly. This game was used as an example, plenty of games to choose from, this one was just the most recent. I had no desire for anyone to go after a certain player but I just wanted a little more intensity.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#8 MabusIncarnate

MabusIncarnate

    The Truth Is Out There

  • Silver Booster Mod
  • 2,146 posts
  • Location:Monteagle, Tennessee

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:19 AM

The elbow was not an inherently dirty play, illegal yes, dirty not so much. Neil played the entire game against abdelkader who is pretty much the only guy who would go after cowen so there was no way it was going to happen. Abdelkader would have made a fool out of himself. That is the same reason why helm and abdelkader weren't dishing out big hits. Kronwall tried a few times but the guy is clearly stuck in a hitting rut.

I respect the older game of hockey, the bench clearing brawls, the brutal rematches after a player got previously hurt, but the modern NHL has taken a leap in the other direction from that. I like that you brought up Chris Neil here, because honestly he's one of the remaining true goons left in hockey. He hits hard, he fights a lot, and there's a chance of being down Abby or Kronwall right now if either attempted some kind of retaliation on Cowen. You don't want to get him started, last thing this team needs is more injuries and Neil can definitely inadvertently cause them. 

 

The Wings played smart hockey today and got them back on the scoreboard. Alf potted an empty netter at the end to seal the deal and anything other than being happy with the result of this game is a low expectation for this era of the NHL.


13585921555_24551f5658.jpg


#9 jollymania

jollymania

    Heavy Hitter

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,606 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:26 AM

I agree play wasn't dirty but as has been said since kindergarten you are responsible for your own arms, you can't just waive them around carelessly. This game was used as an example, plenty of games to choose from, this one was just the most recent. I had no desire for anyone to go after a certain player but I just wanted a little more intensity.

datsyuk is also responsible for his head... The main wings hitters were playing against neil, they obviously didn't want him going after them like he was last game. The wings never respond heavy during the regular season but looking back at playoffs in the past they have been able to answer, looking back at the hawks series in particular when they hammered the hawks into submission until letting up and eventually losing the series. The wings also deflected the sens intensity this game far more handily than the last 2 when the sens were all over the wings.


My understanding of constantly is spot on just because Datsyuk is quick enough to avoid a big check doesn't mean teams don't throw them.
As far as another instance how about Kronwall getting run into the boards a couple years ago.
Gooning is bad for the sport being tough is not.

People rarely go after datsyuk, zetterberg a bit more. I would be more after Methot who really hammered datsyuk last game, cowen barely even touched datsyuk. I wouldn't be surprised if they are just giving pavel his few yearly games to rest up his body.


"I assure you the hits along the boards he(Aaron Downey) constantly threw SEVERAL TIMES EVERY SHIFT were far more damaging hits that what Kronwall throws."
- uk_redwing
HockeyArchive Twitter

#10 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:31 AM

I respect the older game of hockey, the bench clearing brawls, the brutal rematches after a player got previously hurt, but the modern NHL has taken a leap in the other direction from that. I like that you brought up Chris Neil here, because honestly he's one of the remaining true goons left in hockey. He hits hard, he fights a lot, and there's a chance of being down Abby or Kronwall right now if either attempted some kind of retaliation on Cowen. You don't want to get him started, last thing this team needs is more injuries and Neil can definitely inadvertently cause them. 
 
The Wings played smart hockey today and got them back on the scoreboard. Alf potted an empty netter at the end to seal the deal and anything other than being happy with the result of this game is a low expectation for this era of the NHL.

I loved the way the team played in 08 and 09 we had skilled players, we rarely fought and I was ok with that, because in big games or the playoffs we would play a tough style of hockey. Teams would come in thinking they would run us into the ground but we would give as good as we got. Now we still have skilled players but aren't as tough to play against.

.
People rarely go after datsyuk, zetterberg a bit more. I would be more after Methot who really hammered datsyuk last game, cowen barely even touched datsyuk. I wouldn't be surprised if they are just giving pavel his few yearly games to rest up his body.

Not after any one player, in general just it would be nice to have the intensity level ratcheted up for some games.

Edited by wings87, 02 December 2013 - 12:33 AM.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#11 Echolalia

Echolalia

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,717 posts
  • Location:fab ferndale

Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:59 AM

The Red Wings are built to play puck-possession hockey (or at least that's what Holland is aiming for), and not so much to play a overly physical, grinding, fast-paced emotional game. They can play tough when need be but it's not what we're built for, and 'retaliation' is essentially inviting the Wings and their opposition to play a style of hockey that we aren't the greatest at. They got the 2 points tonight and Ottawa didn't. In April that's all that will matter.

#12 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,104 posts

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:01 AM

Sadly open that's what it had come down to, being afraid of avenging the best player and one of the only two remaining stars the DetroitRedWings are having. Also what the hell is wrong with kronwall? Not even an attempt to get Cowen kronwalled. I don't care about the two points yes they've won the game but didn't revenge nor stand up for their best player, embarrassing how soft this team has become. The next time a player like MacIntyre, Scott is on waivers Kenny better takes him. Or maybe he likes seeing this soft euro styled emotionless hockey where our best players can get "glasssmashed" abused ellbowed ... Seems like forever since the DetroitRedWings stood up for each other maybe it's time for another more old school GM who doesn't call the PP an enforcer! ! ! If I'm Pasha I would be having a hard time giving my all again for a team were only Sam seems to care and try.

wche.jpg

 

in need of magic #13

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!


#13 Mckinley25

Mckinley25

    4th Line Grinder

  • Bronze Booster
  • 203 posts

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:06 AM

Sadly open that's what it had come down to, being afraid of avenging the best player and one of the only two remaining stars the DetroitRedWings are having. Also what the hell is wrong with kronwall? Not even an attempt to get Cowen kronwalled.I don't care about the two points yes they've won the game but didn't revenge nor stand up for their best player, embarrassing how soft this team has become. The next time a player like MacIntyre, Scott is on waivers Kenny better takes him. Or maybe he likes seeing this soft euro styled emotionless hockey where our best players can get "glasssmashed" abused ellbowed ...Seems like forever since the DetroitRedWings stood up for each other maybe it's time for another more old school GM who doesn't call the PP an enforcer! ! ! If I'm Pasha I would be having a hard time giving my all again for a team were only Sam seems to care and try.


I think the team does care. They've showed it by winning every game since the incident. If I were Datsyuk that would mean more to me than any moronic retaliation.

#14 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:11 AM

The Red Wings are built to play puck-possession hockey (or at least that's what Holland is aiming for), and not so much to play a overly physical, grinding, fast-paced emotional game. They can play tough when need be but it's not what we're built for, and 'retaliation' is essentially inviting the Wings and their opposition to play a style of hockey that we aren't the greatest at. They got the 2 points tonight and Ottawa didn't. In April that's all that will matter.


I don't disagree with you, but this year has been the first where I have felt that the Wings don't have the tough style of play in their back pocket and could go to it when they want.

Sadly open that's what it had come down to, being afraid of avenging the best player and one of the only two remaining stars the DetroitRedWings are having. Also what the hell is wrong with kronwall? Not even an attempt to get Cowen kronwalled.

I don't care about the two points yes they've won the game but didn't revenge nor stand up for their best player, embarrassing how soft this team has become. The next time a player like MacIntyre, Scott is on waivers Kenny better takes him. Or maybe he likes seeing this soft euro styled emotionless hockey where our best players can get "glasssmashed" abused ellbowed ...

Seems like forever since the DetroitRedWings stood up for each other maybe it's time for another more old school GM who doesn't call the PP an enforcer! ! ! If I'm Pasha I would be having a hard time giving my all again for a team were only Sam seems to care and try.


The last 5 games or so Kronwall has been trying to lay a big hit on someone but the league has wised up to it and he hasn't been able to time it properly.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#15 dobbles

dobbles

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 864 posts
  • Location:Tulsa, OK

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:12 AM

why are we even still talking about this? the cowen hit was reckless but not really dirty. its not like the wings have been victims of continuous dirty plays or anything. 

 

the part that was more disconcerting about that game was that ottawa did play us physical the entire game, specifically neil. however, tonight the wings showed that their skill could neutralize the physicality. when you combine that with how well we have played against boston so far, i really don't think the big bad east will be as tough as many make it out to be. 

 

the datsyuk injury is a freak occurrence. 9 out of 10 times a hit of that magnitude results in no injury. the over reaction here has made me sad. i guess there really are some people that think slapshot is an accurate representation of 21st century hockey... 


Edited by dobbles, 02 December 2013 - 01:13 AM.

I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.


#16 rick zombo

rick zombo

    Grit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,599 posts

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:13 AM

I can't imagine any hockey scenario that would see Kronwall having any chance of hitting Cowan.

They're both defensemen. Unless Cowan (who skates like Hal Gill) leads a rush up the boards and gets met by Kronwall, or Kronwall pinches deep behind the goal-line to take a run at Cowan? Never happen.
"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#17 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:23 AM

why are we even still talking about this? the cowen hit was reckless but not really dirty. its not like the wings have been victims of continuous dirty plays or anything. 
 
the part that was more disconcerting about that game was that ottawa did play us physical the entire game, specifically neil. however, tonight the wings showed that their skill could neutralize the physicality. when you combine that with how well we have played against boston so far, i really don't think the big bad east will be as tough as many make it out to be. 
 
the datsyuk injury is a freak occurrence. 9 out of 10 times a hit of that magnitude results in no injury. the over reaction here has made me sad. i guess there really are some people that think slapshot is an accurate representation of 21st century hockey...


A lot of posters seem to think me using this game or the Datsyuk injury as an example means that I'm only talking about these specific instances. Let me make it clear I'm not. This was not the first time the team has failed to respond emotionally and it won't be the last. The post has more to do with the culture surrounding this team.
I love my Wings love a lot of the players but would love to see more unity. And standing up for each other is a part of it.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#18 WingsAlways

WingsAlways

    Grind Line 2.0

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 307 posts

Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:42 AM

The way I look at it, you have unwritten rules you abide by as players. You don't f*** with captains, stars, and/or goalies and you certainly don't allow opposing teams to do so. Anyone who denies this needs to question his/her status as a hockey fan.


"Wow Chicago, you've won four Stanley Cups? Me too! - Kris Draper"


#19 The Greek

The Greek

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 385 posts
  • Location:L-Town

Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:11 AM

I would like to point out that you said retaliation is able to prevent cheap shots. I'm sorry, there's no way for me to make sense of that. I completely understand what youre saying about getting even. That's my first reaction too. But, it's not always the best course of action for a player to go out of his way to make a big hit.

Ultimately, the objective is to win. If the wings tried to out-muscle the sens, then I feel we would have lost. The sens are better suited for a physical game. You should definitely lay a guy out when the situation presents itself. But not if it could end up hurting you. Pavs would agree, winning is the best way to retaliate.

Edited by The Greek, 02 December 2013 - 02:12 AM.


#20 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,691 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:18 AM

I would like to point out that you said retaliation is able to prevent cheap shots. I'm sorry, there's no way for me to make sense of that. I completely understand what youre saying about getting even. That's my first reaction too. But, it's not always the best course of action for a player to go out of his way to make a big hit.
Ultimately, the objective is to win. If the wings tried to out-muscle the sens, then I feel we would have lost. The sens are better suited for a physical game. You should definitely lay a guy out when the situation presents itself. But not if it could end up hurting you. Pavs would agree, winning is the best way to retaliate.

Completely agree with you,but part of the problem is that this team seems to lacks the ability to play a physical game.
Also I'm wholeheartedly against getting out of position to make a big hit, but during the course if any game there are opportunities to show a little emotion and I don't mean after the whistle has blown.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users