Retaliation

[wings87 1,290]

Let me start off by saying IMHO retaliation is one of the most important parts of Hockey, it keeps the other team honest and protects your own best players. There are teams that do it well and the right way, there are teams that take it too far, and there are teams that don't do it at all.

More times than not the Wings fall into the third category and while keeping a cool head and leaving emotions out of it is an important and difficult aspect of games in some situations not responding sends the wrong message.

Let's take tonight's Wings Senators game. Good win but a disappointing game, it looked like none of the players on the ice cared that Datsyuk was blatantly elbowed. Now I wasn't looking for the Wings to goon it up but can someone lay a big hit or crash the net or do one of a million things that would show the rest of the league that we won't stand for our stars getting pummeled every night. Winning is the most important thing and I'm not naive,I wasn't really expecting them to do anything but was hoping, because not doing anything speaks volumes.

In baseball if the opposing pitcher hits your best player intentionally your pitcher is expected to hit the other team's best player not injure him or anything just show that things of that nature won't be tolerated. And if there is no retribution it sends a message to your star player that you as a pitcher don't have his back and it also tells the other teams in the league that it's open season.

Now I don't presume to know what the mood is like in the Wings locker room regarding this issue or how the top Wings players feel to have a bullseye on

their backs knowing that if push came to shove more likely than not no one in that locker room will have their back, or maybe they don't care at all. What I do know is that the Wings are damn lucky that Datsyuk and Zetterberg have stayed as healthy as they have while getting run constantly without any repercussions.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

That's not the wings style, they're above that.

They won the game, and didn't stoop to their level.

The league isn't gonna stand up and decide to try to hurt two of the nicest, most professional superstars in the league just because we didn't go out and try to intentionally hurt another teams stars...

It's mutual respect, which 95% of players have for one another, which is why goons are becoming scarce.

[Opie 308]

Lol getting run constantly!

Other than this time and Weber smashing Z tell me another one of the constant running.

Otherwise your understanding of the word constantly may be a touch off.

[jollymania 162]

The elbow was not an inherently dirty play, illegal yes, dirty not so much. Neil played the entire game against abdelkader who is pretty much the only guy who would go after cowen so there was no way it was going to happen. Abdelkader would have made a fool out of himself. That is the same reason why helm and abdelkader weren't dishing out big hits. Kronwall tried a few times but the guy is clearly stuck in a hitting rut.

[wings87 1,290]

That's not the wings style, they're above that.

They won the game, and didn't stoop to their level.

The league isn't gonna stand up and decide to try to hurt two of the nicest, most professional superstars in the league just because we didn't go out and try to intentionally hurt another teams stars...

It's mutual respect, which 95% of players have for one another, which is why goons are becoming scarce.

Where in my entire post did you see me advocating hurting or injuring players on the other team?

Making a hit is part of hockey, crashing the net is part of hockey as is standing up for your best players.

[wings87 1,290]

Lol getting run constantly!

Other than this time and Weber smashing Z tell me another one of the constant running.

Otherwise your understanding of the word constantly may be a touch off.

My understanding of constantly is spot on just because Datsyuk is quick enough to avoid a big check doesn't mean teams don't throw them.

As far as another instance how about Kronwall getting run into the boards a couple years ago.

Gooning is bad for the sport being tough is not.

Edited December 2, 2013 by wings87

[wings87 1,290]

The elbow was not an inherently dirty play, illegal yes, dirty not so much. Neil played the entire game against abdelkader who is pretty much the only guy who would go after cowen so there was no way it was going to happen. Abdelkader would have made a fool out of himself. That is the same reason why helm and abdelkader weren't dishing out big hits. Kronwall tried a few times but the guy is clearly stuck in a hitting rut.

I agree play wasn't dirty but as has been said since kindergarten you are responsible for your own arms, you can't just waive them around carelessly. This game was used as an example, plenty of games to choose from, this one was just the most recent. I had no desire for anyone to go after a certain player but I just wanted a little more intensity.

[MabusIncarnate 5,344]

The elbow was not an inherently dirty play, illegal yes, dirty not so much. Neil played the entire game against abdelkader who is pretty much the only guy who would go after cowen so there was no way it was going to happen. Abdelkader would have made a fool out of himself. That is the same reason why helm and abdelkader weren't dishing out big hits. Kronwall tried a few times but the guy is clearly stuck in a hitting rut.

I respect the older game of hockey, the bench clearing brawls, the brutal rematches after a player got previously hurt, but the modern NHL has taken a leap in the other direction from that. I like that you brought up Chris Neil here, because honestly he's one of the remaining true goons left in hockey. He hits hard, he fights a lot, and there's a chance of being down Abby or Kronwall right now if either attempted some kind of retaliation on Cowen. You don't want to get him started, last thing this team needs is more injuries and Neil can definitely inadvertently cause them.

The Wings played smart hockey today and got them back on the scoreboard. Alf potted an empty netter at the end to seal the deal and anything other than being happy with the result of this game is a low expectation for this era of the NHL.

[jollymania 162]

I agree play wasn't dirty but as has been said since kindergarten you are responsible for your own arms, you can't just waive them around carelessly. This game was used as an example, plenty of games to choose from, this one was just the most recent. I had no desire for anyone to go after a certain player but I just wanted a little more intensity.

datsyuk is also responsible for his head... The main wings hitters were playing against neil, they obviously didn't want him going after them like he was last game. The wings never respond heavy during the regular season but looking back at playoffs in the past they have been able to answer, looking back at the hawks series in particular when they hammered the hawks into submission until letting up and eventually losing the series. The wings also deflected the sens intensity this game far more handily than the last 2 when the sens were all over the wings.

My understanding of constantly is spot on just because Datsyuk is quick enough to avoid a big check doesn't mean teams don't throw them.

As far as another instance how about Kronwall getting run into the boards a couple years ago.

Gooning is bad for the sport being tough is not.

People rarely go after datsyuk, zetterberg a bit more. I would be more after Methot who really hammered datsyuk last game, cowen barely even touched datsyuk. I wouldn't be surprised if they are just giving pavel his few yearly games to rest up his body.

[wings87 1,290]

I respect the older game of hockey, the bench clearing brawls, the brutal rematches after a player got previously hurt, but the modern NHL has taken a leap in the other direction from that. I like that you brought up Chris Neil here, because honestly he's one of the remaining true goons left in hockey. He hits hard, he fights a lot, and there's a chance of being down Abby or Kronwall right now if either attempted some kind of retaliation on Cowen. You don't want to get him started, last thing this team needs is more injuries and Neil can definitely inadvertently cause them.

The Wings played smart hockey today and got them back on the scoreboard. Alf potted an empty netter at the end to seal the deal and anything other than being happy with the result of this game is a low expectation for this era of the NHL.

I loved the way the team played in 08 and 09 we had skilled players, we rarely fought and I was ok with that, because in big games or the playoffs we would play a tough style of hockey. Teams would come in thinking they would run us into the ground but we would give as good as we got. Now we still have skilled players but aren't as tough to play against.

.

People rarely go after datsyuk, zetterberg a bit more. I would be more after Methot who really hammered datsyuk last game, cowen barely even touched datsyuk. I wouldn't be surprised if they are just giving pavel his few yearly games to rest up his body.

Not after any one player, in general just it would be nice to have the intensity level ratcheted up for some games. Edited December 2, 2013 by wings87

[Echolalia 2,961]

The Red Wings are built to play puck-possession hockey (or at least that's what Holland is aiming for), and not so much to play a overly physical, grinding, fast-paced emotional game. They can play tough when need be but it's not what we're built for, and 'retaliation' is essentially inviting the Wings and their opposition to play a style of hockey that we aren't the greatest at. They got the 2 points tonight and Ottawa didn't. In April that's all that will matter.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Sadly open that's what it had come down to, being afraid of avenging the best player and one of the only two remaining stars the DetroitRedWings are having. Also what the hell is wrong with kronwall? Not even an attempt to get Cowen kronwalled.

I don't care about the two points yes they've won the game but didn't revenge nor stand up for their best player, embarrassing how soft this team has become. The next time a player like MacIntyre, Scott is on waivers Kenny better takes him. Or maybe he likes seeing this soft euro styled emotionless hockey where our best players can get "glasssmashed" abused ellbowed ...

Seems like forever since the DetroitRedWings stood up for each other maybe it's time for another more old school GM who doesn't call the PP an enforcer! ! ! If I'm Pasha I would be having a hard time giving my all again for a team were only Sam seems to care and try.

[Mckinley25 677]

Sadly open that's what it had come down to, being afraid of avenging the best player and one of the only two remaining stars the DetroitRedWings are having. Also what the hell is wrong with kronwall? Not even an attempt to get Cowen kronwalled.I don't care about the two points yes they've won the game but didn't revenge nor stand up for their best player, embarrassing how soft this team has become. The next time a player like MacIntyre, Scott is on waivers Kenny better takes him. Or maybe he likes seeing this soft euro styled emotionless hockey where our best players can get "glasssmashed" abused ellbowed ...Seems like forever since the DetroitRedWings stood up for each other maybe it's time for another more old school GM who doesn't call the PP an enforcer! ! ! If I'm Pasha I would be having a hard time giving my all again for a team were only Sam seems to care and try.

I think the team does care. They've showed it by winning every game since the incident. If I were Datsyuk that would mean more to me than any moronic retaliation.

[wings87 1,290]

The Red Wings are built to play puck-possession hockey (or at least that's what Holland is aiming for), and not so much to play a overly physical, grinding, fast-paced emotional game. They can play tough when need be but it's not what we're built for, and 'retaliation' is essentially inviting the Wings and their opposition to play a style of hockey that we aren't the greatest at. They got the 2 points tonight and Ottawa didn't. In April that's all that will matter.

I don't disagree with you, but this year has been the first where I have felt that the Wings don't have the tough style of play in their back pocket and could go to it when they want.

Sadly open that's what it had come down to, being afraid of avenging the best player and one of the only two remaining stars the DetroitRedWings are having. Also what the hell is wrong with kronwall? Not even an attempt to get Cowen kronwalled.

I don't care about the two points yes they've won the game but didn't revenge nor stand up for their best player, embarrassing how soft this team has become. The next time a player like MacIntyre, Scott is on waivers Kenny better takes him. Or maybe he likes seeing this soft euro styled emotionless hockey where our best players can get "glasssmashed" abused ellbowed ...

Seems like forever since the DetroitRedWings stood up for each other maybe it's time for another more old school GM who doesn't call the PP an enforcer! ! ! If I'm Pasha I would be having a hard time giving my all again for a team were only Sam seems to care and try.

The last 5 games or so Kronwall has been trying to lay a big hit on someone but the league has wised up to it and he hasn't been able to time it properly.

[dobbles 252]

why are we even still talking about this? the cowen hit was reckless but not really dirty. its not like the wings have been victims of continuous dirty plays or anything.

the part that was more disconcerting about that game was that ottawa did play us physical the entire game, specifically neil. however, tonight the wings showed that their skill could neutralize the physicality. when you combine that with how well we have played against boston so far, i really don't think the big bad east will be as tough as many make it out to be.

the datsyuk injury is a freak occurrence. 9 out of 10 times a hit of that magnitude results in no injury. the over reaction here has made me sad. i guess there really are some people that think slapshot is an accurate representation of 21st century hockey...

Edited December 2, 2013 by dobbles

[rick zombo 3,739]

I can't imagine any hockey scenario that would see Kronwall having any chance of hitting Cowan.

They're both defensemen. Unless Cowan (who skates like Hal Gill) leads a rush up the boards and gets met by Kronwall, or Kronwall pinches deep behind the goal-line to take a run at Cowan? Never happen.

[wings87 1,290]

why are we even still talking about this? the cowen hit was reckless but not really dirty. its not like the wings have been victims of continuous dirty plays or anything.

the part that was more disconcerting about that game was that ottawa did play us physical the entire game, specifically neil. however, tonight the wings showed that their skill could neutralize the physicality. when you combine that with how well we have played against boston so far, i really don't think the big bad east will be as tough as many make it out to be.

the datsyuk injury is a freak occurrence. 9 out of 10 times a hit of that magnitude results in no injury. the over reaction here has made me sad. i guess there really are some people that think slapshot is an accurate representation of 21st century hockey...

A lot of posters seem to think me using this game or the Datsyuk injury as an example means that I'm only talking about these specific instances. Let me make it clear I'm not. This was not the first time the team has failed to respond emotionally and it won't be the last. The post has more to do with the culture surrounding this team.

I love my Wings love a lot of the players but would love to see more unity. And standing up for each other is a part of it.

[WingsAlways 486]

The way I look at it, you have unwritten rules you abide by as players. You don't f*** with captains, stars, and/or goalies and you certainly don't allow opposing teams to do so. Anyone who denies this needs to question his/her status as a hockey fan.

[The Greek 323]

I would like to point out that you said retaliation is able to prevent cheap shots. I'm sorry, there's no way for me to make sense of that. I completely understand what youre saying about getting even. That's my first reaction too. But, it's not always the best course of action for a player to go out of his way to make a big hit.

Ultimately, the objective is to win. If the wings tried to out-muscle the sens, then I feel we would have lost. The sens are better suited for a physical game. You should definitely lay a guy out when the situation presents itself. But not if it could end up hurting you. Pavs would agree, winning is the best way to retaliate.

Edited December 2, 2013 by The Greek

[wings87 1,290]

I would like to point out that you said retaliation is able to prevent cheap shots. I'm sorry, there's no way for me to make sense of that. I completely understand what youre saying about getting even. That's my first reaction too. But, it's not always the best course of action for a player to go out of his way to make a big hit.

Ultimately, the objective is to win. If the wings tried to out-muscle the sens, then I feel we would have lost. The sens are better suited for a physical game. You should definitely lay a guy out when the situation presents itself. But not if it could end up hurting you. Pavs would agree, winning is the best way to retaliate.

Completely agree with you,but part of the problem is that this team seems to lacks the ability to play a physical game.

Also I'm wholeheartedly against getting out of position to make a big hit, but during the course if any game there are opportunities to show a little emotion and I don't mean after the whistle has blown.

[Dabura 12,207]

My big issue with this vigilante justice that many of you are clamoring for is that it might very well re-write something of an unwritten rule in the NHL, which is:

Do not try to get to the Detroit Red Wings *that way*.

The way it is now, we play the Hurricanes, Muller scratches Westgarth; we play the Bruins, Julien scratches Thornton; we play the Sabres, Nolan scratches Scott; we play the Canadiens, Therrien scratches Parros (and Murray). It's an unwritten hockey code unto itself. It's a show of respect. It's a pretty good deal. On the other hand, the Bruins play the Sabres...and Scott crushes Eriksson. Because, hey, fair game.

Sure, every now and then something is going to happen. Weber almost took Z's head off, and Cowen caught Dats "on the button." But, you know what? I'd rather we take our chances with a once-every-two-or-three-years occurrence than basically tell the rest of the league, "We are the Detroit Red Wings and we will fight you!!!" That's what opposing coaches and thugs want us to say. They want us to give them the green light. They want us to dress a wildly out-of-place enforcer on our skill-centric team. They want us to get away from our game. That's why a guy would take a calculated run at Z or D in the first place. It's a bigger picture strategy thing.

And it doesn't work. If anything, it generally makes us better. I mean, just look at how good we've been since we lost Dats (and he'll be back soon enough, and we'll be even better). You could argue that, if the goal is to establish supremacy over us and soften us up for the rest of the league, taking out our best player was the single most stupid thing the Sens could've done. I don't think they go to bed last night thinking, "Ha! Datsyuk's still out! The last laugh! Haha!"

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for sticking up for yourself and your team mates and your team and your organization. I'm all for this team being tougher, more physical, grittier, harder to play against. But you have to be at least halfway reasonable about it. It can't be, "Datsyuk got caught with an elbow in a regular season game, in November. Accordingly, we must sign and dress at least three enforces and re-enact March 27, 1997 or else we suck and should just forfeit the season." This isn't the '80s, this isn't the Norris Division. Nor is it Lemieux-on-Draper. It's a deliberately careless elbow and a choppy, chippy game from a floundering, ultra-frustrated division rival that might not even make the playoffs. And last night we beat them in their own building and further strengthened the notion that, if it was a better chance at a Cup that he was looking for, Alfie made the right choice in signing with the Red Wings. We're second in the division and third in the conference, just a few points back of the Bruins and Penguins. And that's without our best player, our third-best defenseman, an important part of this season's first line, last season's Jimmy Howard, and, basically, our second-line center. So, at the moment, I'm pretty damn happy with, and proud of, this team.

[Dabura 12,207]

*March 26

[Opie 308]

Lets just take a look at a few recent incidents in what I consider the "NEW NHL" since the 04 lockout:

Cooke Lays out Savard against the Big Bad Bruins, who beat the living crap out of him?

Soon after Bergeron gets boarded and it nearly ends his career, who beat the living crap out of Randy Jones?

Who fought either Steckel or Hedman when Crosby took his hits?

I can go on and on with incidents of dirty hits not being retaliated on, however look how many fights there are after Clean hits!

The times of a guy like Bert jumping Moore due to a bad check are starting to pass us by.

Like it or dislike it, love it or hate it, the way the league is heading, especially with a multi-million dollar law suit being filed by players because Teams and the League did not do enough to "Protect them" , this retaliation is going to be less and less.

There are (imo) more fights and crap started after completely clean hits than there is for Dirty hits.

*March 26

I have said this NUMEROUS times on this board, if all fights and melees were in the same vein as the Blood Feud was, than I would think every fight and retaliation was deserved.

That was an intense rivalry built on total organizational hatred for each other, this wasn't just one guy crossing the line.

This was coaches hating each other, players, everyone in each of those orgs would have dropped the gloves (or whistle or notepad) to go at the counter part in the other org.

This was a deep seated rivalry born out of competition, many playoff series, ego, and one of the dirtiest hits that I can remember. Granted I am not 40 yet so my memory is not real deep!

[dobbles 252]

Lets just take a look at a few recent incidents in what I consider the "NEW NHL" since the 04 lockout:

Cooke Lays out Savard against the Big Bad Bruins, who beat the living crap out of him?

Soon after Bergeron gets boarded and it nearly ends his career, who beat the living crap out of Randy Jones?

Who fought either Steckel or Hedman when Crosby took his hits?

I can go on and on with incidents of dirty hits not being retaliated on, however look how many fights there are after Clean hits!

If anything, Cooke is the poster boy for why fighting doesn't deter dirty play. Everyone remembers that time Evander Kane smashed Cookes face in durng a fight. Yet Cooke plays just as dirty as ever. He has no fear of retribution for dirty plays. Fights these days are mostly hug fests. Fights have to have helmets on. Most players have shields. What do dirty players have to fear from fighting?

And to keep on topic, essentially what I am saying is that retribution makes the fans feel better, but it doesn't do anything to stop it from happening again.

And I agree with Dabura. The Wings strategy of not playing the physical game works pretty well as most teams don't dress their 'goon' type players. It eliminates the need for the WIngs to carry a dedicated fighter.

Edited December 2, 2013 by dobbles

[wings87 1,290]

Lets just take a look at a few recent incidents in what I consider the "NEW NHL" since the 04 lockout:

Cooke Lays out Savard against the Big Bad Bruins, who beat the living crap out of him?

Soon after Bergeron gets boarded and it nearly ends his career, who beat the living crap out of Randy Jones?

Who fought either Steckel or Hedman when Crosby took his hits?

I can go on and on with incidents of dirty hits not being retaliated on, however look how many fights there are after Clean hits!

The times of a guy like Bert jumping Moore due to a bad check are starting to pass us by.

Like it or dislike it, love it or hate it, the way the league is heading, especially with a multi-million dollar law suit being filed by players because Teams and the League did not do enough to "Protect them" , this retaliation is going to be less and less.

There are (imo) more fights and crap started after completely clean hits than there is for Dirty hits.

I have said this NUMEROUS times on this board, if all fights and melees were in the same vein as the Blood Feud was, than I would think every fight and retaliation was deserved.

That was an intense rivalry built on total organizational hatred for each other, this wasn't just one guy crossing the line.

This was coaches hating each other, players, everyone in each of those orgs would have dropped the gloves (or whistle or notepad) to go at the counter part in the other org.

This was a deep seated rivalry born out of competition, many playoff series, ego, and one of the dirtiest hits that I can remember. Granted I am not 40 yet so my memory is not real deep!

What Bert did was illegal and if it was on the street instead of a hockey rink he would be in jail. And I would never advocate anything of that nature.

As far as fights go more of them take place after clean hits, like you said, which just bugs the hell out of me. Fights are there to help players police the game not make a farce out of the game after a clean hit. Most fights nowadays are staged, and by that I mean agreed upon before the puck drops which takes emotion out of it and turns it into a waste of time. In my opinion staged fights should be taken out of the game completely.

But real fights or hard nosed plays do make a difference. If you take the the Ottawa game the Wings partly didn't retaliate because they where afraid of Neil, and that fear probably kept a player like Abdelkader from being physical.