Retaliation

[kipwinger 8,522]

This whole thread is reactionary, and at the same time premeditated. It's hard to be both at once; in fact, it's almost impossible. Yet here we are. Some people obviously want the Wings to play a "more physical" type of game, which typically boils down to more fighting. So we wait, and when we finally lose a game in which we're physically dominated, they jump up and say "See! If we were just tougher then this wouldn't happen." It's opportunistic, and at the same time utterly predictable.

Here's the problem with this thread in a nutshell. We lost seven games in a row before the last Ottawa game, and physicality and fighting played no role in any of those losses. Yet, I didn't see people jumping up to start "the Wings need to get faster" threads, or "the Wings need a better positional goalie" thread, or "the Wings need a better transition game" thread. But sure as s***, the first time we get hit a little bit there will be a "the Wings need to get more physical" thread.

This isn't about the Wings playing better. It's a post hoc way of justifying your desire to see the Wings get in more fights. If that's how you feel just say so, but don't try to manipulate the truth. And don't make it seem like this is some glaring need because it has barely been a factor this season.

The argument is a cheap, unsophisticated attempt to pull the wool over our collective eyes. It would be insulting if it weren't so glaringly obvious.

[wings87 1,290]

This whole thread is reactionary, and at the same time premeditated. It's hard to be both at once; in fact, it's almost impossible. Yet here we are. Some people obviously want the Wings to play a "more physical" type of game, which typically boils down to more fighting. So we wait, and when we finally lose a game in which we're physically dominated, they jump up and say "See! If we were just tougher then this wouldn't happen." It's opportunistic, and at the same time utterly predictable.

Here's the problem with this thread in a nutshell. We lost seven games in a row before the last Ottawa game, and physicality and fighting played no role in any of those losses. Yet, I didn't see people jumping up to start "the Wings need to get faster" threads, or "the Wings need a better positional goalie" thread, or "the Wings need a better transition game" thread. But sure as s***, the first time we get hit a little bit there will be a "the Wings need to get more physical" thread.

This isn't about the Wings playing better. It's a post hoc way of justifying your desire to see the Wings get in more fights. If that's how you feel just say so, but don't try to manipulate the truth. And don't make it seem like this is some glaring need because it has barely been a factor this season.

The argument is a cheap, unsophisticated attempt to pull the wool over our collective eyes. It would be insulting if it weren't so glaringly obvious.

Since when does physical play equal more fighting? The wings have always been able to stand up for themselves and in the modern NHL that rarely involved fighting.

And the reason you didn't see some of the threads you mentioned was because most of that is said in the game threads.

And boy do I just love it when somebody comes along and decides to tell me how I feel or the reasoning behind my actions. Your the guy that took that semester of psych in college and became an expert aren't you?

[kipwinger 8,522]

Since when does physical play equal more fighting? The wings have always been able to stand up for themselves and in the modern NHL that rarely involved fighting.

And the reason you didn't see some of the threads you mentioned was because most of that is said in the game threads.

And boy do I just love it when somebody comes along and decides to tell me how I feel or the reasoning behind my actions. Your the guy that took that semester of psych in college and became an expert aren't you?

Nope, I'm the guy who recognizes when someone uses a non-representative example as evidence in order to try and validate a point of view which is itself off base. It's like saying cars are stupid because yours broke down yesterday, or football players are criminals because Ray Lewis killed a guy. It's not hard to see through, you just need some "critical thinking skills" in fancy first semester psych terminology.

[wings87 1,290]

Nope, I'm the guy who recognizes when someone uses a non-representative example as evidence in order to try and validate a point of view which is itself off base. It's like saying cars are stupid because yours broke down yesterday, or football players are criminals because Ray Lewis killed a guy. It's not hard to see through, you just need some "critical thinking skills" in fancy first semester psych terminology.

Do you also recognize when someone is on a power trip? If three Tesla's burn down it's ok to ask if they are safe or not. And if NFL players are arrested all the time it's not hard to say that there are behavioral issues in the NFL that's why the penalties in Football are getting more stringent.

Returning to hockey, if you play soft on the boards and in the corners it easier for the opposing players to make plays, and that has contributed to plenty of loses for this team.

[Opie 308]

Do you also recognize when someone is on a power trip? If three Tesla's burn down it's ok to ask if they are safe or not. And if NFL players are arrested all the time it's not hard to say that there are behavioral issues in the NFL that's why the penalties in Football are getting more stringent.

Returning to hockey, if you play soft on the boards and in the corners it easier for the opposing players to make plays, and that has contributed to plenty of loses for this team.

Yes and as I pointed out in the "OMG DAN CLEARY IS THE DEVIL" thread, through all of this the Wings are 3 points out of first in the division, with 7 OT or Shoot Out losses, in a division that most on here though the Wings would get destroyed in.

Tough to be a Wings fan!!!

[sleepwalker 512]

why are we even still talking about this? the cowen hit was reckless but not really dirty.

I think the reason hockey fans in general are still talking about this is just the complete hypocrisy on part of the NHL when it come to headshots and discipline.

The NHL keeps saying over and over how they are taking a stand against headshots like this, and if a headshot occurs that results in an injury, it will be an automatic suspension regardless of how it happens.

And then you see Datsyuk, one of the top players in the entire league get concussed by a headshot, and the league just gives some asinine BS excuse about why there was no suspension, despite the fact that they have repeated over and over ad nauseum that plays like this, even if they are accidental or reckless, will be dealt with suspensions, and there will be zero tolerance.

Now we get to see yet one more time, that the league is completely full of s***, and just says whatever they think people want to hear, with zero intention of actually following through.

[wings87 1,290]

Yes and as I pointed out in the "OMG DAN CLEARY IS THE DEVIL" thread, through all of this the Wings are 3 points out of first in the division, with 7 OT or Shoot Out losses, in a division that most on here though the Wings would get destroyed in.

Tough to be a Wings fan!!!

We are just splitting hairs here, the wings In general are a decent team with a few players that are not playing well. But the question is what do they need to be a Stanley Cup winning team? And like it or not being tough to play against is part of it.

Not sure what other people thought when the team moved out east, because I don't presume to know what's on other peoples minds, but the only tough team in the Wings division is Boston. The Wings actually came from a tougher division out west.

[sleepwalker 512]

Cooke plays just as dirty as ever.

No he doesn't.

I know people like to hate on Cooke because of his past (and for good reason) but he has tried (and succeeded for the most part) to pull a Mikita style 180 degree turn, and clean up his play over the last couple years.

[Opie 308]

There is no need to read minds, just read the posts from the offseason!

Go ahead, some had people predicting the Wings as 5th in the division. People posted stats about hits vs # of wins, # of Wings wins against the Big Bad East in the last 82 games played in that conference.

Start here and then tell me I am reading minds!

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/74008-red-wings-to-be-in-an-eastern-conference-in-latest-nhlnhlpa-proposal/?hl=realignment#entry2360072

Enjoy the read it is 2000+ posts long!

This division with TBL, TOR, MTL, OTT was supposed to kick the living Crap out of the Wings, because as you said the Wings were not tough enough to play against.

Even Buffalo with Scott was supposed to be to tough for the Wings!

BTW the Wings old division included such great teams as the Preds and The BJ's lets not pretend that the Lightning, Leafs, Sens, and Habs are not better than those two!!

[wings87 1,290]

There is no need to read minds, just read the posts from the offseason!

Go ahead, some had people predicting the Wings as 5th in the division. People posted stats about hits vs # of wins, # of Wings wins against the Big Bad East in the last 82 games played in that conference.

Start here and then tell me I am reading minds!

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/topic/74008-red-wings-to-be-in-an-eastern-conference-in-latest-nhlnhlpa-proposal/?hl=realignment#entry2360072

Enjoy the read it is 2000+ posts long!

This division with TBL, TOR, MTL, OTT was supposed to kick the living Crap out of the Wings, because as you said the Wings were not tough enough to play against.

Even Buffalo with Scott was supposed to be to tough for the Wings!

BTW the Wings old division included such great teams as the Preds and The BJ's lets not pretend that the Lightning, Leafs, Sens, and Habs are not better than those two!!

I never posted saying we where gonna get the crap beat out of us, you also didn't post anything in that thread but you seem to have all the answers.

2000+ posts? Maybe you should read more carefully it says 217 replies.

When the Wings left the division was tougher, then the division we are in now. Not counting last year because the schedule was truncated, for several years the only bad team was Columbus. Let's be realistic TBL, TOR, MTL, OTT are not world beaters. We should have no problem making the playoffs but I want to win the Cup not get to the second round.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Do you also recognize when someone is on a power trip? If three Tesla's burn down it's ok to ask if they are safe or not. And if NFL players are arrested all the time it's not hard to say that there are behavioral issues in the NFL that's why the penalties in Football are getting more stringent.

Returning to hockey, if you play soft on the boards and in the corners it easier for the opposing players to make plays, and that has contributed to plenty of loses for this team.

There you go fabricating things again. We only lost one game due to being physically dominated. You're suggesting that it's a recurring theme. This season, it hasn't happened "three times", it doesn't happen "all the time". It happened once. And here you are to champion the cause of "getting tougher" because it's such a recurring problem. It's so disingenuous it's almost laughable.

Also, how am I on a power trip? I literally have ZERO power over anything that happens on this site. I'm not even a mod.

No he doesn't.

I know people like to hate on Cooke because of his past (and for good reason) but he has tried (and succeeded for the most part) to pull a Mikita style 180 degree turn, and clean up his play over the last couple years.

I agree, he cleaned up his act. But not because of retaliation, but rather because of the monster suspension he got. It actually proves that retaliation DOESN'T WORK.

[wings87 1,290]

There you go fabricating things again. We only lost one game due to being physically dominated. You're suggesting that it's a recurring theme. This season, it hasn't happened "three times", it doesn't happen "all the time". It happened once. And here you are to champion the cause of "getting tougher" because it's such a recurring problem. It's so disingenuous it's almost laughable.

Also, how am I on a power trip? I literally have ZERO power over anything that happens on this site. I'm not even a mod.

I agree, he cleaned up his act. But not because of retaliation, but rather because of the monster suspension he got. It actually proves that retaliation DOESN'T WORK.

The one thing I'll agree with you on is that the wings have gotten beat up ones, but they have been outmuscled plenty. You don't lose 7 straight games while being the better team. I'm not asking you to agree with me everyone has their own opinion and I respect that wholeheartedly. But this reminds me of the time you got on me for saying that Weiss has been bad, why don't you read some of your posts since then. Edited December 2, 2013 by wings87

[esteef 2,679]

I believe there would be more dirty play if fighting/enforcing were completely taken out of the game. And teams sit their enforcer against the Wings because their average player could beat up most of the Wings. An enforcer is overkill for them.

esteef

[Opie 308]

I never posted saying we where gonna get the crap beat out of us, you also didn't post anything in that thread but you seem to have all the answers.

2000+ posts? Maybe you should read more carefully it says 217 replies.

When the Wings left the division was tougher, then the division we are in now. Not counting last year because the schedule was truncated, for several years the only bad team was Columbus. Let's be realistic TBL, TOR, MTL, OTT are not world beaters. We should have no problem making the playoffs but I want to win the Cup not get to the second round.

Sorry, I cannot believe I made a typo and put 2000+ instead of 200, oh my how could I have erred so badly, I mean 200 and 2000 have no digits in common.

Please forgive me oh lord of the internet!

Back to the point, I never said I read your mind did I? You told me to stop trying to read people's minds, which I was not trying to do.

You may noticed I used the word people, I used that word instead of "You" because I was not talking about you.

I do not have all of the answers, but I do have access to all of the stats and all of the posts on this forum, which you do as well.

I used those to back up my argument, you know, with that little thing called Evidence, you attacked me and my posts, the sure sign that you cannot back up you argument!

Oh and BTW this is the Wings first year out of that division, how have NAS and CBJ changed so drastically in those few months?

The only team in that division that had a better chance than the Wings at winning it all was CHI, Maybe STL, not NAS and certainly not CBJ. Now if you want to start to talk about a tougher conference I am willing to listen, seeing as LA, ANA, etc...

You may or may not recall that in last years playoffs the Wings first beat the 2nd best and a very physical team in the Ducks. Then took the eventual Champs to 7 games. But you didn't point that out in you lost in the second round post,l because it hurts your argument!

The Wings are 2 points behind the Pens, 3 points behind the B's for third in their conference, yet some how they are not tough enough to win.

They just dominated the B's, who had a full compliment of players and their starting goaltender. Aren't they the exact type of team that the Wings cannot beat?

Hmmm, let me think weren't the B's just in a very important game of some sort in June???

What is the name of that again?

Argue with me all you want, but you will notice I post stats, you post your opinion about posts, again a sure sign you can not back up your argument.

if you want to talk about tangible stats or empirical evidence lets talk, but don't come back at me with, "My eyes tell me what I need to know"/Eye test Bull CRAP!

The one thing I'll agree with you on is that the wings have gotten beat up ones, but they have been outmuscled plenty. You don't lose 7 straight games while being the better team. I'm not asking you to agree with me everyone has their own opinion and I respect that wholeheartedly. But this reminds me of the time you got on me for saying that Weiss has been bad, why don't you read some of your posts since then.

How many of those were OT/SO losses and how many were shellackings because they couldn't handle the play along the boards??

I believe there would be more dirty play if fighting/enforcing were completely taken out of the game. And teams sit their enforcer against the Wings because their average player could beat up most of the Wings. An enforcer is overkill for them.

esteef

I agree 100%, and that is due to an overall lack of respect for each other.

With out fighting stick work, elbows, and other 2 min penalties would skyrocket, as well as injuries.

But you can not file suit against the league (players union, not players) because they did not prevent head injuries all the while saying, we can police ourselves we know what is best!

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Have to agree with Dabura and kipwinger here. Seems awfully reactionary and definitely not our style.

Playing physical is great and all(we do play physical) but by having us running around looking for big hits and trying to send "a message", it takes us away from our game.

We're a puck possession team. If we're being the aggressor and throwing bodies around,it means we don't have the puck.

We're plenty difficult to play against. We grind down players will and determination by making them chase all night. That's how the Wings win. Not through retaliation.

[dobbles 252]

No he doesn't.

I know people like to hate on Cooke because of his past (and for good reason) but he has tried (and succeeded for the most part) to pull a Mikita style 180 degree turn, and clean up his play over the last couple years.

you are 100% right. cooke has cleaned up his game in recent years. i was just not thinking when i posted that. i was still stuck in like 2009 mentality!

however, hopefully we can all agree that after the kane fight, he was still as douchey as ever. it was only when the league started coming down hard on him he got the message and either he decided he needed to change his ways or coaches/general managers told him he needed to chane his ways to stay in the league.

[wings87 1,290]

Sorry, I cannot believe I made a typo and put 2000+ instead of 200, oh my how could I have erred so badly, I mean 200 and 2000 have no digits in common.

Please forgive me oh lord of the internet!

Back to the point, I never said I read your mind did I? You told me to stop trying to read people's minds, which I was not trying to do.

You may noticed I used the word people, I used that word instead of "You" because I was not talking about you.

I do not have all of the answers, but I do have access to all of the stats and all of the posts on this forum, which you do as well.

I used those to back up my argument, you know, with that little thing called Evidence, you attacked me and my posts, the sure sign that you cannot back up you argument!

Oh and BTW this is the Wings first year out of that division, how have NAS and CBJ changed so drastically in those few months?

The only team in that division that had a better chance than the Wings at winning it all was CHI, Maybe STL, not NAS and certainly not CBJ. Now if you want to start to talk about a tougher conference I am willing to listen, seeing as LA, ANA, etc...

You may or may not recall that in last years playoffs the Wings first beat the 2nd best and a very physical team in the Ducks. Then took the eventual Champs to 7 games. But you didn't point that out in you lost in the second round post,l because it hurts your argument!

The Wings are 2 points behind the Pens, 3 points behind the B's for third in their conference, yet some how they are not tough enough to win.

They just dominated the B's, who had a full compliment of players and their starting goaltender. Aren't they the exact type of team that the Wings cannot beat?

Hmmm, let me think weren't the B's just in a very important game of some sort in June???

What is the name of that again?

Argue with me all you want, but you will notice I post stats, you post your opinion about posts, again a sure sign you can not back up your argument.

if you want to talk about tangible stats or empirical evidence lets talk, but don't come back at me with, "My eyes tell me what I need to know"/Eye test Bull CRAP!

How many of those were OT/SO losses and how many were shellackings because they couldn't handle the play along the boards??

Why are you getting bent out of shape? You tried to make a point that there was a lot of complaining about Wings moving out east,you tried to make that point by showing the amount of posts and in that context there is a definitive difference between 200 and 2000.

You want stats here you go:

East 2011-2012 season:

Boston: 102 points

Ottawa: 92 points

Toronto:80 points

Montreal:78 points

Tampa:84

Winnipeg:84

Central 2011-2012 season:

Blues: 109

Nashville:104

Detroit: 102

Chicago:101

When the Wings where moving out east the teams in the west where getting better other than Columbus of course.

I've made this point through out the thread the Wings have always had the ability to turn on the physical play when they had to whether it be in the playoffs or a big game. I'm just not sure this team has that ability. I think I said that at some point on the first page if you bothered to read it.

You also seem to forget that teams don't magically end up in overtime. Being able to hang around for the extra point is the only reason this team is anywhere near the top. They should be commended for tying some of those games but they where lucky not to get the loss in others. Furthermore how many times did the Wings blow a lead this year? 7, that's having a lead in half the teams losses, and in a lot of them a 2 goal lead.

Has the team been playing better? Absolutely, but unfortunately we saw this in early October when we won 4 straight and than lost 12 of 16. Lots of lazy turnovers, lazy penalties, and at times lazy goal tending contributed to it. Being tough doesn't mean getting in fights for no reason it means being heavy on the puck either defensively or offensively.

Just as the eye test, numbers are subjective unless you watch the games stats don't provide a comprehensive picture. A player might have a certain number of goals but how many of them where empty net goals or how many points were racked up in a blow out when the other team stopped playing. How about penalty minutes? If you don't watch the game you might not know that the penalty saved a goal. Stats alone are pretty to look at but that's why major sports have scouts because numbers don't tell nearly the whole picture.

Edited December 2, 2013 by wings87

[kipwinger 8,522]

The one thing I'll agree with you on is that the wings have gotten beat up ones, but they have been outmuscled plenty. You don't lose 7 straight games while being the better team. I'm not asking you to agree with me everyone has their own opinion and I respect that wholeheartedly. But this reminds me of the time you got on me for saying that Weiss has been bad, why don't you read some of your posts since then.

I hope that you're not suggesting that I have recently begun saying Weiss has been bad...he hasn't and I've never said so. I've definitely said that we need him playing better, and that's never going to happen with the two millstones around his neck (Cleary and Sammy). But if you have somehow got the impression that I've changed my tune on Weiss, I assure you, I haven't. He's still a good signing and a really good player. Nobody could score with his wingers.

[Opie 308]

Just as the eye test, numbers are subjective unless you watch the games stats don't provide a comprehensive picture. A player might have a certain number of goals but how many of them where empty net goals or how many points were racked up in a blow out when the other team stopped playing. How about penalty minutes? If you don't watch the game you might not know that the penalty saved a goal. Stats alone are pretty to look at but that's why major sports have scouts because numbers don't tell nearly the whole picture.

LOL, unless I watch the games. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love the internet, it is like the Gene pool, in serious need of a life guard!

I am not bent out of shape, that is you again assuming and attacking me!

And btw my point about the post numbers was as I said, have fun it was a lot of posts, not that the volume gave the argument validity.

That is why I post stats, to prevent you from misconstruing my message. But even that didn't work, you assumed what I meant and try to make a point out of it, even though you are wrong about what I meant, now who is reading minds!

So the Wings are hanging on to make it to overtime, what is the other team doing?

Stomping the Wings, while they hang on?

I am done discussing this with you, we disagree, you are attacking me, you provide a few stats and then throw out the watch the games argument.

Didn't realize you were a pro scout, I will go back to letting you rule the internet again oh wise an benevolent one!

[wings87 1,290]

LOL, unless I watch the games. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love the internet, it is like the Gene pool, in serious need of a life guard!

I am not bent out of shape, that is you again assuming and attacking me!

And btw my point about the post numbers was as I said, have fun it was a lot of posts, not that the volume gave the argument validity.

That is why I post stats, to prevent you from misconstruing my message. But even that didn't work, you assumed what I meant and try to make a point out of it, even though you are wrong about what I meant, now who is reading minds!

So the Wings are hanging on to make it to overtime, what is the other team doing?

Stomping the Wings, while they hang on?

I am done discussing this with you, we disagree, you are attacking me, you provide a few stats and then throw out the watch the games argument.

Didn't realize you were a pro scout, I will go back to letting you rule the internet again oh wise an benevolent one!

Who's attacking who? I didn't agree with your post and I said as much. I Wasn't attacking you or even the points you made. I don't have the need to hide behind insults to make my point. But you seem to be a little defensive. And when I wrote if you watch the games I wasn't referring to you specifically I was referring to people watching games in general so that stats make sense. I thought it was easy to discern in the context of my post, I never accused you of not caring or watching hockey.

And lets get something straight I never called myself a scout, I said that teams have scouts to see players play they don't just rely on stats.

I don't think me and you can discuss this topic like adults with you taking everything so personally and turning to childish insults so let's just go on about our day.

Edited December 2, 2013 by wings87

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Well, I believe some soccer-mums and soccer-dads are only happy once hockey is as lame as soccer. The player on the team is missing games with a concussion, the NHL isn't doing anything about it? Who cares, the PP is our enforcer and mastermind Kenny is always right...(at least in the eyes of the soccer mums, soccer-dads).

And yet some people are still questioning, why the interest in this team isn't the same as it was back in the days, no, it's not only skill related it's also that sense of seeing a team which will stand up for each other no matter what. I'm so sick of this "puck posession" style this team certainly isn't skilled enough for that anymore, so they clearly lack an identity. I am very sure the Senators are already laughing, Cowen took out the DetroitRedWings best player and the response was...well winning a game that could have gone either way, only Sam has shown some heart.

The funny thing is, as soon as this team is winning a few games they are back the "almighty" puck-posession style and everyting is fine right? No it's not, not standing up for your best player reflects very poorly on the team and the GM for not brining in someone, who can deal with Neil and even Kassasian.

Yes, shame on everybody who wants them to play tougher and protect the starplayers, young-guns I am sure Stevie Y, the perfect human were really pissed about their great bodyguards. A guy like Monahan, Bärtschi can score goals and isn't getting glasssmashed, ellbowed or whatever because almost nobody wants to answer to McGrattan.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

All right, let's get back on topic and stop the personal attacks.

I'm hungry and don't want to have to spend time suspending people.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

As a self proclaimed 'knuckle dragger' - I always liked the idea of beating your opponent on the scoreboard as well as beating them up.

It's why I'd much rather have a team that resembles what we had in the 90's than what we have today.

Exactly the way I'm seeing out, others may disagree which is fine but at the end of the day this team was a lot more exciting to watch and follow. Especially in the playoffs having a few guys that can protect your players doesn't hurt. A prime example for a modern day McCarty would be Peluso from the WinnipegJets, guy is tough, can win a fight and chip in some goals here and there the thing is, the AHL is full of such players but yet they are getting overlooked, which is a shame.

[dobbles 252]

As a self proclaimed 'knuckle dragger' - I always liked the idea of beating your opponent on the scoreboard as well as beating them up.

It's why I'd much rather have a team that resembles what we had in the 90's than what we have today.

i certainly have no problem with that, i just think that in todays salary cap environment, combined with the dwindling number of players available that can be tough and skate a regular shift, that its become pretty tough to put together a winning team that is also tough. boston certainly is a good example. but they have that as their base. i think it would be hard to shift midstream for the wings because that is not the type of team they have built.

[Opie 308]

i certainly have no problem with that, i just think that in todays salary cap environment, combined with the dwindling number of players available that can be tough and skate a regular shift, that its become pretty tough to put together a winning team that is also tough. boston certainly is a good example. but they have that as their base. i think it would be hard to shift midstream for the wings because that is not the type of team they have built.

Boston is a great example of a team that balances out incredibly well in this cap era, they have high end talent, grinders, defensive studs, young guys, great two way play, and the toughness and grit guys like Thornton and Campbell add.

They are one of the best teams in the league, not because of anyone of those attributes, but instead because of the sum of all those parts.

I agree 100% for Detroit to shift to that it would be a good deal of tinkering.

But looking at the contracts being shed this offseason, the transition may not be as long away as it looks from this point!

i don't tell my Bruins Fan Friends this, but I do believe they have one of, if not, the most well rounded and deep teams in the league.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Opie