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#41 dobbles

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:16 PM

 

No he doesn't. 

 

I know people like to hate on Cooke because of his past (and for good reason) but he has tried (and succeeded for the most part) to pull a Mikita style 180 degree turn, and clean up his play over the last couple years.

 

you are 100% right. cooke has cleaned up his game in recent years. i was just not thinking when i posted that. i was still stuck in like 2009 mentality!

 

however, hopefully we can all agree that after the kane fight, he was still as douchey as ever. it was only when the league started coming down hard on him he got the message and either he decided he needed to change his ways or coaches/general managers told him he needed to chane his ways to stay in the league.


I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.


#42 wings87

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:35 PM

 

Sorry, I cannot believe I made a typo and put 2000+ instead of 200, oh my how could I have erred so badly, I mean 200 and 2000 have no digits in common.

Please forgive me oh lord of the internet!

 

Back to the point, I never said I read your mind did I? You told me to stop trying to read people's minds, which I was not trying to do.

You may noticed I used the word people, I used that word instead of "You" because I was not talking about you.

 

I do not have all of the answers, but I do have access to all of the stats and all of the posts on this forum, which you do as well.

I used those to back up my argument, you know, with that little thing called Evidence, you attacked me and my posts, the sure sign that you cannot back up you argument!

 

Oh and BTW this is the Wings first year out of that division, how have NAS and CBJ changed so drastically in those few months?

 

The only team in that division that had a better chance than the Wings at winning it all was CHI, Maybe STL, not NAS and certainly not CBJ. Now if you want to start to talk about a tougher conference I am willing to listen, seeing as LA, ANA, etc...

 

You may or may not recall that in last  years playoffs the Wings first beat the 2nd best and a very physical team in the Ducks. Then took the eventual Champs to 7 games. But you didn't point that out in you lost in the second round post,l because it hurts your argument!

 

The Wings are 2 points behind the Pens, 3 points behind the B's for third in their conference, yet some how they are not tough enough to win.

 

They just dominated the B's, who had a full compliment of players and their starting goaltender. Aren't they the exact type of team that the Wings cannot beat?

 

Hmmm, let me think weren't the B's just in a very important game of some sort in June???

What is the name of that again?

 

Argue with me all you want, but you will notice I post stats, you post your opinion about  posts, again a sure sign you can not back up your argument.

 

if you want to talk about tangible stats or empirical evidence lets talk, but don't come back at me with, "My eyes tell me what I need to know"/Eye test Bull CRAP!


 

 

How many of those were OT/SO losses and how many were shellackings because they couldn't handle the play along the boards??

Why are you getting bent out of shape? You tried to make a point that there was a lot of complaining about Wings moving out east,you tried to make that point by showing the amount of posts and in that context there is a definitive difference between 200 and 2000.

 

You want stats here you go:

East 2011-2012 season:

Boston: 102 points

Ottawa: 92 points

Toronto:80 points

Montreal:78 points

Tampa:84

Winnipeg:84

Central 2011-2012 season:

Blues: 109

Nashville:104

Detroit: 102

Chicago:101

When the Wings where moving out east the teams in the west where getting better other than Columbus of course.

I've made this point through out the thread the Wings have always had the ability to turn on the physical play when they had to whether it be in the playoffs or a big game. I'm just not sure this team has that ability. I think I said that at some point on the first page if you bothered to read it. 

 

You also seem to forget that teams don't magically end up in overtime. Being able to hang around for the extra point is the only reason this team is anywhere near the top. They should be commended for tying some of those games but they where lucky not to get the loss in others. Furthermore how many times did the Wings blow a lead this year? 7, that's having a lead in half the teams losses, and in a lot of them a 2 goal lead. 

 

Has the team been playing better? Absolutely, but unfortunately we saw this in early October when we won 4 straight and than lost 12 of 16. Lots of lazy turnovers, lazy penalties, and at times lazy goal tending contributed to it. Being tough doesn't mean getting in fights for no reason it means being heavy on the puck either defensively or offensively.  

 

Just as the eye test, numbers are subjective unless you watch the games stats don't provide a comprehensive picture. A player might have a certain number of goals but how many of them where empty net goals or how many points were racked up in a blow out when the other team stopped playing. How about penalty minutes? If you don't watch the game you might not know that the penalty saved a goal. Stats alone are pretty to look at but that's why major sports have scouts because numbers don't tell nearly the whole picture.


Edited by wings87, 02 December 2013 - 04:49 PM.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#43 kipwinger

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

The one thing I'll agree with you on is that the wings have gotten beat up ones, but they have been outmuscled plenty. You don't lose 7 straight games while being the better team. I'm not asking you to agree with me everyone has their own opinion and I respect that wholeheartedly. But this reminds me of the time you got on me for saying that Weiss has been bad, why don't you read some of your posts since then.

 

I hope that you're not suggesting that I have recently begun saying Weiss has been bad...he hasn't and I've never said so.  I've definitely said that we need him playing better, and that's never going to happen with the two millstones around his neck (Cleary and Sammy).  But if you have somehow got the impression that I've changed my tune on Weiss, I assure you, I haven't.  He's still a good signing and a really good player.  Nobody could score with his wingers.


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Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#44 Opie

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:21 PM

Just as the eye test, numbers are subjective unless you watch the games stats don't provide a comprehensive picture. A player might have a certain number of goals but how many of them where empty net goals or how many points were racked up in a blow out when the other team stopped playing. How about penalty minutes? If you don't watch the game you might not know that the penalty saved a goal. Stats alone are pretty to look at but that's why major sports have scouts because numbers don't tell nearly the whole picture.

 

LOL, unless I watch the games. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love the internet, it is like the Gene pool, in serious need of a life guard!

 

I am not bent out of shape, that is you again assuming and attacking me!

 

And btw my point about the post numbers was as I said, have fun it was a lot of posts, not that the volume gave the argument validity.

That is why I post stats, to prevent you from misconstruing my message. But even that didn't work, you assumed what I meant and try to make a point out of it, even though you are wrong about what I meant, now who is reading minds!

 

So the Wings are hanging on to make it to overtime, what is the other team doing?

Stomping the Wings, while they hang on?

 

I am done discussing this with you, we disagree, you are attacking me, you provide a few stats and then throw out the watch the games argument.

 

Didn't realize you were a pro scout, I will go back to letting you rule the internet again oh wise an benevolent one!


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#45 wings87

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:41 PM

 

LOL, unless I watch the games. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love the internet, it is like the Gene pool, in serious need of a life guard!

 

I am not bent out of shape, that is you again assuming and attacking me!

 

And btw my point about the post numbers was as I said, have fun it was a lot of posts, not that the volume gave the argument validity.

That is why I post stats, to prevent you from misconstruing my message. But even that didn't work, you assumed what I meant and try to make a point out of it, even though you are wrong about what I meant, now who is reading minds!

 

So the Wings are hanging on to make it to overtime, what is the other team doing?

Stomping the Wings, while they hang on?

 

I am done discussing this with you, we disagree, you are attacking me, you provide a few stats and then throw out the watch the games argument.

 

Didn't realize you were a pro scout, I will go back to letting you rule the internet again oh wise an benevolent one!

Who's attacking who? I didn't agree with your post and I said as much. I Wasn't attacking you or even the points you made. I don't have the need to hide behind insults to make my point. But you seem to be a little defensive. And when I wrote if you watch the games I wasn't referring to you specifically I was referring to people watching games in general so that stats make sense. I thought it was easy to discern in the context of my post, I never accused you of not caring or watching hockey. 

 

And lets get something straight I never called myself a scout, I said that teams have scouts to see players play they don't just rely on stats.  

 

I don't think me and you can discuss this topic like adults with you taking everything so personally and turning to childish insults so let's just go on about our day.


Edited by wings87, 02 December 2013 - 06:13 PM.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#46 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 06:28 PM

Well, I believe some soccer-mums and soccer-dads are only happy once hockey is as lame as soccer. The player on the team is missing games with a concussion, the NHL isn't doing anything about it? Who cares, the PP is our enforcer and mastermind Kenny is always right...(at least in the eyes of the soccer mums, soccer-dads).

 

And yet some people are still questioning, why the  interest in this team isn't the same as it was back in the days, no, it's not only skill related it's also that sense of seeing a team which will stand up for each other no matter what. I'm so sick of this "puck posession" style this team certainly isn't skilled enough for that anymore, so they clearly lack an identity. I am very sure the Senators are already laughing, Cowen took out the DetroitRedWings best player and the response was...well winning a game that could have gone either way, only Sam has shown some heart.

 

The funny thing is, as soon as this team is winning a few games they are back the "almighty" puck-posession style and everyting is fine right? No it's not, not standing up for your best player reflects very poorly on the team and the GM for not brining in someone, who can deal with Neil and even Kassasian.

 

Yes, shame on everybody who wants them to play tougher and protect the starplayers, young-guns I am sure Stevie Y, the perfect human were really pissed about their great bodyguards. A guy like Monahan, Bärtschi can score goals and isn't getting glasssmashed, ellbowed or whatever because almost nobody wants to answer to McGrattan.


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#47 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 10:00 PM

All right, let's get back on topic and stop the personal attacks.

 

I'm hungry and don't want to have to spend time suspending people. 



#48 F.Michael

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 10:17 PM

As a self proclaimed 'knuckle dragger' - I always liked the idea of beating your opponent on the scoreboard as well as beating them up.

 

It's why I'd much rather have a team that resembles what we had in the 90's than what we have today.



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#49 frankgrimes

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 10:42 PM

As a self proclaimed 'knuckle dragger' - I always liked the idea of beating your opponent on the scoreboard as well as beating them up.

 

It's why I'd much rather have a team that resembles what we had in the 90's than what we have today.

 

Exactly the way I'm seeing out, others may disagree which is fine but at the end of the day this team was a lot more exciting to watch and follow. Especially in the playoffs having a few guys that can protect your players doesn't hurt. A prime example for a modern day McCarty would be Peluso from the WinnipegJets, guy is tough, can win a fight and chip in some goals here and there the thing is, the AHL is full of such players but yet they are getting overlooked, which is a shame.


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#50 dobbles

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 09:36 AM

As a self proclaimed 'knuckle dragger' - I always liked the idea of beating your opponent on the scoreboard as well as beating them up.

 

It's why I'd much rather have a team that resembles what we had in the 90's than what we have today.

 

i certainly have no problem with that, i just think that in todays salary cap environment, combined with the dwindling number of players available that can be tough and skate a regular shift, that its become pretty tough to put together a winning team that is also tough. boston certainly is a good example. but they have that as their base. i think it would be hard to shift midstream for the wings because that is not the type of team they have built.


I love Maltby, but to say he wasn't a ****** is a dis-service to his career of douchebaggery.


#51 Opie

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:11 AM

 

i certainly have no problem with that, i just think that in todays salary cap environment, combined with the dwindling number of players available that can be tough and skate a regular shift, that its become pretty tough to put together a winning team that is also tough. boston certainly is a good example. but they have that as their base. i think it would be hard to shift midstream for the wings because that is not the type of team they have built.

 

Boston is a great example of a team that balances out incredibly well in this cap era, they have high end talent, grinders, defensive studs, young guys, great two way play, and the toughness and grit guys like Thornton and Campbell add.

 

They are one of the best teams in the league, not because of anyone of those attributes, but instead because of the sum of all those parts.

 

I agree 100% for Detroit to shift to that it would be a good deal of tinkering.

 

But looking at the contracts being shed this offseason, the transition may not be as long away as it looks from this point!

 

i don't tell my Bruins Fan Friends this, but I do believe they have one of, if not, the most well rounded and deep teams in the league.


Edited by Opie, 03 December 2013 - 10:12 AM.

"The more I know about people - the better I like my dog." - Mark Twain

"A wise man once told me, ‘Don’t argue with fools. Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who'." Jay Z, Takeover

"When I was looking for a captain, I wanted a guy with the Red Wings crest tattooed on his chest," said former Detroit coach Jacques Demers, who named Yzerman captain in 1986. "Steve Yzerman was that guy."

“Told him if he wasn't ultra-competitive he couldn't come here. If he didn't bring it every day he couldn't come here, because he was going to hate it if he didn't, dislike the coach and dislike playing here.
“It's real straightforward. If you don't do it right, you're not happy here." Babcock

#52 F.Michael

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 07:05 PM

@ dobbles...

 

I agree that the salary cap can play a role as to who we have on our roster...Looking at who the Wings have drafted over the past several plus years - there's an emphasis on skill over anything else...That said - it's hard to believe that our current GM has been with the club since the 80's in some way, or another...All those years with so many ruff & tumble types on the roster, and look what we have now.


@ Opie...

 

It's why I find the Bruins to a fun team to watch...They remind me of our beloved Red Wings circa 1997/1998. 



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#53 GoalieManPat

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:33 AM

Teams dont try and be over physical with the Wings anymore even though it never worked in the first place. Most teams now can match out outmatch the Wings in skill and that's how they beat them.



#54 F.Michael

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:36 AM

@ GoalieManPat...

 

It'll be interesting to see how we fare in the playoffs...Me thinks our opponents will use their physical prowess, and the usual refs letting things go to their advantage.

 

EDIT - meaning now that we're in the Eastern Conference.


Edited by F.Michael, 04 December 2013 - 11:38 AM.


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#55 esteef

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:17 PM

Rosehill in the lineup tonight for Philly.  I thought tough guys don't play against the Wings?

 

esteef


Edited by esteef, 04 December 2013 - 08:18 PM.

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#56 Nev

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:14 PM

FWIW, Ott is supposed to be available from BUffalo.  We'd have to give up either Quincey or Sammy to fit him under the cap - when I say give up, I mean make Buffalo take them - plus the usual picks/prospects.  Doubt KH would be willing to give up a 1st for anybody after getting his fingers burned with Quincey.


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#57 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:23 PM

Uncle Gary says: "The fans don't want retaliation. There's no money to be made in that.  What fans want is more outdoor games".


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#58 wings87

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:10 PM

Uncle Gary says: "The fans don't want retaliation. There's no money to be made in that.  What fans want is more outdoor games".


It was fun when there was one outdoor game a year. Now they may as well play every game outside.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#59 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:34 PM

It was fun when there was one outdoor game a year. Now they may as well play every game outside.

 

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#60 F.Michael

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:56 PM

Rosehill in the lineup tonight for Philly.  I thought tough guys don't play against the Wings?

 

esteef

I wonder if that altercation (ok - it was a shove) with Ronaldo at the end of the game had anything to do with Helm's injured shoulder ;)



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