Shawn Thornton attacks Orpik (leaves game on stretcher)

[e_prime 1,936]

But previous history here wasn't a "non-factor." If Neal had no previous history at all, I doubt he gets 5 games. If you think about it, 5 games is actually quite a bit for an incident that didn't result in any injury. I have no idea on the stats, but I'd guess there would be very few suspensions of greater than 5 games that had no injuries involved.

Intentional knee to the head doesn't warrant five games? Repeat offender or not? It makes the league look like a joke.

If the league REALLY wants to get the number of concussions down, they need to stop looking at injury or non-injury on a play as a factor in suspensions and take things like a knee to a head seriously.

[sleepwalker 512]

If Thornton gets more than 5 games, it just once again proves what a complete joke the NHL is, and how hypocritcal they are.

Lets be real here, Thornton didn't even drop the gloves, he just caught Orpik just right with a gloved hit and briefly KO'd him. The only reason everyone is making a big deal out of it is because the brought in the stretcher. Players throw punches to each others face with gloves on literally every single game at some point.

Neal should have had the book thrown at him. That knee was such a digusting and dirty play. Thornton was out of line too, but Neals hit was WAY worse, IMO. The intent from Neal was nothing other than to seriously injure.

Lets also not forget that the reason Thornton went after Orpik was because Neal immediately after kneeing Marchand in the head, ran to the bench like a gutless coward so he wouldn't have to go with any of the Bruins. If Neal stays on the ice to face the music, Thornton goes after him instead.

[rrasco 1,312]

After I've really had time to look at this....I'm not even convinced Orpik was knocked out, or hurt for that matter. I think he was embellishing it....a lot. IMO he never goes limp, as players are falling on him he kind of moves around. If you want to know what happens when someone goes limp, see Kronwall/Havlat.

[kipwinger 8,492]

After I've really had time to look at this....I'm not even convinced Orpik was knocked out, or hurt for that matter. I think he was embellishing it....a lot. IMO he never goes limp, as players are falling on him he kind of moves around. If you want to know what happens when someone goes limp, see Kronwall/Havlat.

Who ever said he was knocked out? All I heard was that he was concussed, which can happen without being knocked out.

[The Greek 323]

There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

Edited December 12, 2013 by The Greek

[rrasco 1,312]

Who ever said he was knocked out? All I heard was that he was concussed, which can happen without being knocked out.

I heard several times it was referred to as 'Orpik out cold'. I'm not defending Thornton, because that was indeed a mugging that shouldn't have happened so I guess it's rather irrelevant whether Orpik sold it or not. Just an observation is all.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.

Sure, Thornton crossed the line in a disgusting way but it's not like the Penguins are a clean-team by any ways. Also Thornton has been in a lot of heated situations and never ever has been suspended, huge kudos to him and I would love to have a guy like him protecting Pasha, Z and the young guns instead of only one guy who is willing to stand up for them in Sam...

Loved what McCarty did back then and now that I'm older I love it even more! Rock'em Sock'em hockey, even Lemieux said he wanted a guy like McCarty on the Stars because of how well DMac played his role.

Edited December 12, 2013 by frankgrimes

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I don't know your age, and maybe it's a poor generalization on my part, but I tend to believe that many of us mid 30's, and older tend to be indifferent towards these sorts of violent acts (meaning that we were around in the 70's/80's when pro ice hockey was arguably it's most violent).

I'm not condoning what Thornton did to Orpik, and indeed it was a cheap shot...Now with that said - I'm the sort who's felt if a certain player has a habit of running, or injuring opponents, or is generally known around the league as a cheap shot artist - well - that player better grow eyes on the back of his head.

I'm a bit younger but had the pleasure of watching and reading about NHL hockey back then, because for whatever reason we could watch some NA channels

The prime example for a clean player to me is LSchenn, physical on every shift but he always keeps his ellbows where they belong and doesn't cross the line, like the Neals, Cooks and Torreses. I would bet a lot of money, that Thornton himself is ashamed by what he did this man has played with and for the code his entire career

[The Greek 323]

I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.

Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

Edited December 13, 2013 by The Greek

[kipwinger 8,492]

There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

Good post. It's counter intuitive to argue that this type of thing is no big deal because in the old days it wouldn't have been. In the old days people used to put Mercury on open wounds to help cuts heal. If you did that now you'd be a lunatic. Because it used to be common doesn't mean it still should be.

[vladdy16 2,154]

Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

McCarty to this day insists Lemiuex knew he coming and that no blindsiding was involved. Take that how you will.

And it still would have meant the world even had things not turned out the same. It wasn't the hit so much (that was bad enough) as Claude's attitude afterward, He deserved a beatdown, period.

I'm not a proponent of stupid penalties and mindless violence, but I am a huge supporter of sticking up for your team and not letting guys like Cowen get away with manhandling anybody, let alone Pavel. I believe in dual-purpose players - those that can contribute effectively and maintain order and mete out justice, which is what true old time hockey was all about.

[kipwinger 8,492]

McCarty to this day insists Lemiuex knew he coming and that no blindsiding was involved. Take that how you will.

And it still would have meant the world even had things not turned out the same. It wasn't the hit so much (that was bad enough) as Claude's attitude afterward, He deserved a beatdown, period.

I'm not a proponent of stupid penalties and mindless violence, but I am a huge supporter of sticking up for your team and not letting guys like Cowen get away with manhandling anybody, let alone Pavel. I believe in dual-purpose players - those that can contribute effectively and maintain order and mete out justice, which is what true old time hockey was all about.

Manhandled? You make it seem like Cown shook Pavel like a baby. He skated by him and grazed his face. Nobody, aside from Red Wings fans, thought it was particularly vicious. You can make an argument that it doesn't matter, the head was touched and Cowen needs to be responsible for it. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

But manhandling? Give me a break.

Edit: Also, why is it that the self styled defenders of "old time hockey" seem to think that every little offense resulted in a fight back then? Gordie Howe was notorious for elbowing yet only had 22 career fights. Why? Because nobody expected you to fight for throwing an elbow. So if you really want "Old Time Hockey", then when Pavel gets elbowed, you should expect him to stop being a pansy and take it like a man instead of wanting Babs to send out an enforcer.

Edited December 13, 2013 by vladdy16

[vladdy16 2,154]

Manhandled? You make it seem like Cown shook Pavel like a baby. He skated by him and grazed his face. Nobody, aside from Red Wings fans, thought it was particularly vicious. You can make an argument that it doesn't matter, the head was touched and Cowen needs to be responsible for it. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

But manhandling? Give me a break.

Edit: Also, why is it that the self styled defenders of "old time hockey" seem to think that every little offense resulted in a fight back then? Gordie Howe was notorious for elbowing yet only had 22 career fights. Why? Because nobody expected you to fight for throwing an elbow. So if you really want "Old Time Hockey", then when Pavel gets elbowed, you should expect him to stop being a pansy and take it like a man instead of wanting Babs to send out an enforcer.

Sorry, but a love tap doesn't concuss you. Manhandled might be a tad strong, but this was merely an example. I'm not going to totally derail this thread, but I will leave you with Gordie's elbows were legendary, yes, but he didn't use them unadvisedly. And the evolution of the game has had players focus on skill, not strength for the most part. This leads to the need for policemen.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Sorry, but a love tap doesn't concuss you. Manhandled might be a tad strong, but this was merely an example. I'm not going to totally derail this thread, but I will leave you with Gordie's elbows were legendary, yes, but he didn't use them unadvisedly. And the evolution of the game has had players focus on skill, not strength for the most part. This leads to the need for policemen.

I realize that there's a tendency to not want to say anything about a hockey hero that might come across as criticism. But if you think that Gordie Howe didn't use his elbows in an unadvised way, you probably need to take a look at some of the myriad of articles, interviews, commentary, etc. that make reference to how often he would be suspended or fined if he played today.

It's ok to be a fan boy, but to make Gordie Howe out to be some kind of gentleman does a disservice to what made Gordie Howe awesome in the first place. He didn't fight, but man was he dirty.

[Guest RyaN_84]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=438921

looks like we'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out how many games thornton gets suspended.

has there ever been this long of a delay for a suspension?!

​at any rate, anything less then 20 games is a joke imo.

[sleepwalker 512]

GTFO

Neal only got 5 games for his knee to the head, which was way worse than what Thornton did, so anything MORE than 5 games for Thornton is a joke.

Edit: though the NHL in general is a complete joke when it comes to discipline, and their complete hypocrisy when handing out discipline, so I fully expect Thornton to get 10, maybe more. We'll have to wait until Shanny spins his wheel of justice to see what happens.

Edited December 14, 2013 by sleepwalker

[Guest RyaN_84]

I agree with you on that.

But anything less than 20 games is a joke. Have we regressed to the point where this type of behavior is now tolerated?

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

Interesting read:

@RedWingsFeed: Cam Cole: NHL covers its legal backside in weighing Thornton ban: Nearly a... http://t.co/XlSHV3l6pt via @TheWindsorStar #NHL #RedWings

[cnot19 191]

I hope its not 20

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Neal got 5, so Thornton shouldn't be over 12 at the absolute max.

Maybe just maybe the Penguins are already starting to regret, letting BigMac go *g*

[Guest DeGraa55]

The fact that get Neal got five...he shouldn't get more than five. But since the pens are the golden girls of the NHL Thornton will get double what he actually deserves.

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

I think this very thread is evidence of how this situation isn't black and white. Some feel he should get 20 games, some feel he should get five. I don't know which way DPS is leaning, but I will be interested to hear their reasoning behind whatever the final number is...

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

I've read that Shanahan is examining this case very closely, as he wants to send a "message" regarding this type of shenanigans. But c'mon!!!

Does the League allow "lobbying" by owners, who want to act as lawyers representing their "client", who make a phone call to plead their client down to a lesser charge? If it happens, the rest of the free world doesn't hear about it.

[The Greek 323]

The fact that get Neal got five...he shouldn't get more than five. But since the pens are the golden girls of the NHL Thornton will get double what he actually deserves.

Since Neal got less than he deserves, Thornton should get less than he deserves? Is that how you approach punishment for crime? Since one person has gotten away with murser, we shouldn't punish anyone for it.

[Guest RyaN_84]

Thornton suspended 15 games.
Justice..has been served. I'm okay with 15.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=438984