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Shawn Thornton attacks Orpik (leaves game on stretcher)


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#141 The Greek

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:07 PM

There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

Edited by The Greek, 12 December 2013 - 03:08 PM.


#142 rrasco

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:14 PM

Who ever said he was knocked out?  All I heard was that he was concussed, which can happen without being knocked out. 

 

I heard several times it was referred to as 'Orpik out cold'.  I'm not defending Thornton, because that was indeed a mugging that shouldn't have happened so I guess it's rather irrelevant whether Orpik sold it or not.  Just an observation is all.


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#143 F.Michael

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:07 PM

There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

 

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.



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#144 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.

 

I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.

 

Sure, Thornton crossed the line in a disgusting way but it's not like the Penguins are a clean-team by any ways. Also Thornton has been in a lot of heated situations and never ever has been suspended, huge kudos to him and I would love to have a guy like him protecting Pasha, Z and the young guns instead of only one guy who is willing to stand up for them in Sam...

 

Loved what McCarty did back then and now that I'm older I love it even more! Rock'em Sock'em hockey, even Lemieux said he wanted a guy like McCarty on the Stars because of how well DMac played his role.


Edited by frankgrimes, 12 December 2013 - 06:18 PM.

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#145 F.Michael

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

 

Sure, Thornton crossed the line in a disgusting way but it's not like the Penguins are a clean-team by any ways. Also Thornton has been in a lot of heated situations and never ever has been suspended, huge kudos to him and I would love to have a guy like him protecting Pasha, Z and the young guns instead of only one guy who is willing to stand up for them in Sam...

 

Loved what McCarty did back then and now that I'm older I love it even more! Rock'em Sock'em hockey, even Lemieux said he wanted a guy like McCarty on the Stars because of how well DMac played his role.

I don't know your age, and maybe it's a poor generalization on my part, but I tend to believe that many of us mid 30's, and older tend to be indifferent towards these sorts of violent acts (meaning that we were around in the 70's/80's when pro ice hockey was arguably it's most violent).

 

I'm not condoning what Thornton did to Orpik, and indeed it was a cheap shot...Now with that said - I'm the sort who's felt if a certain player has a habit of running, or injuring opponents, or is generally known around the league as a cheap shot artist - well - that player better grow eyes on the back of his head.


Edited by F.Michael, 12 December 2013 - 06:35 PM.


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#146 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:05 PM

I don't know your age, and maybe it's a poor generalization on my part, but I tend to believe that many of us mid 30's, and older tend to be indifferent towards these sorts of violent acts (meaning that we were around in the 70's/80's when pro ice hockey was arguably it's most violent).

 

I'm not condoning what Thornton did to Orpik, and indeed it was a cheap shot...Now with that said - I'm the sort who's felt if a certain player has a habit of running, or injuring opponents, or is generally known around the league as a cheap shot artist - well - that player better grow eyes on the back of his head.

 

I'm a  bit younger but had the pleasure of watching and reading about NHL hockey back then, because for whatever reason we could watch some NA channels :)

 

The prime example for a clean player to me is LSchenn, physical on every shift but he always keeps his ellbows where they belong and doesn't cross the line, like the Neals, Cooks and Torreses. I would bet a lot of money, that Thornton himself is ashamed by what he did this man has played with and for the code his entire career


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#147 The Greek

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:05 AM

I was 26 back then, and thought it was awesome that someone finally gave Lemieux what he deserved...Even better it being a Detroit Red Wings.
 
I'm 43, and still feel the same way - then again I'm a fan from a different era.


Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

Edited by The Greek, 13 December 2013 - 11:26 AM.


#148 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:44 AM

There are a couple things that I think are very odd, when I read this thread. Everyone brings up the knee by Neal. I don't get what that has to do with anything. One suspension-worthy offense doesn't validate another.

Also, I don't understand the focus on the result of the incident. It shouldn't matter if orpik was hurt or if he jumped up and started river dancing. Thornton assaulted someone, on the ice. It's the same reason emery should have been suspended.

Before anyone brings up McCarty, if a wings player did that now, I would say he should be suspended. When I was 8, McCarty turtling Lemieux was the most awesome thing ever. Now, I'd be troubled by it, especially if it was done the same way. What Bert did to Moore is a perfect example of why there should be no tolerance for this stuff. He never intended for the result to be what it was. But, stuff happens. Especially when you attack someone when he's not expecting it.

I think the proper punishment for this kind of attack is an automic 20 game suspension. A subsequent offense should be a year or more. This isn't like an illegal hit, for which it is harder to determine the intent. When you attack someone or swing for the head, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do.

 

Good post.  It's counter intuitive to argue that this type of thing is no big deal because in the old days it wouldn't have been.  In the old days people used to put Mercury on open wounds to help cuts heal.  If you did that now you'd be a lunatic.  Because it used to be common doesn't mean it still should be.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#149 vladdy16

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 12:39 PM

Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

McCarty to this day insists Lemiuex knew he coming and that no blindsiding was involved.  Take that how you will.

And it still would have meant the world even had things not turned out the same.  It wasn't the hit so much (that was bad enough) as Claude's attitude afterward,  He deserved a beatdown, period.

I'm not a proponent of stupid penalties and mindless violence, but I am a huge supporter of sticking up for your team and not letting guys like Cowen get away with manhandling anybody, let alone Pavel.  I believe in dual-purpose players - those that can contribute effectively and maintain order and mete out justice, which is what true old time hockey was all about.


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#150 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 12:49 PM

McCarty to this day insists Lemiuex knew he coming and that no blindsiding was involved.  Take that how you will.

And it still would have meant the world even had things not turned out the same.  It wasn't the hit so much (that was bad enough) as Claude's attitude afterward,  He deserved a beatdown, period.

I'm not a proponent of stupid penalties and mindless violence, but I am a huge supporter of sticking up for your team and not letting guys like Cowen get away with manhandling anybody, let alone Pavel.  I believe in dual-purpose players - those that can contribute effectively and maintain order and mete out justice, which is what true old time hockey was all about.

 

Manhandled?  You make it seem like Cown shook Pavel like a baby.  He skated by him and grazed his face.  Nobody, aside from Red Wings fans, thought it was particularly vicious.  You can make an argument that it doesn't matter, the head was touched and Cowen needs to be responsible for it.  I'd have a hard time disagreeing. 

 

But manhandling?  Give me a break.

 

Edit:  Also, why is it that the self styled defenders of "old time hockey" seem to think that every little offense resulted in a fight back then?  Gordie Howe was notorious for elbowing yet only had 22 career fights.  Why?  Because nobody expected you to fight for throwing an elbow.  So if you really want "Old Time Hockey", then when Pavel gets elbowed, you should expect him to stop being a pansy and take it like a man instead of wanting Babs to send out an enforcer.


Edited by vladdy16, 13 December 2013 - 01:26 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#151 vladdy16

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:26 PM

 

Manhandled?  You make it seem like Cown shook Pavel like a baby.  He skated by him and grazed his face.  Nobody, aside from Red Wings fans, thought it was particularly vicious.  You can make an argument that it doesn't matter, the head was touched and Cowen needs to be responsible for it.  I'd have a hard time disagreeing. 

 

But manhandling?  Give me a break.

 

Edit:  Also, why is it that the self styled defenders of "old time hockey" seem to think that every little offense resulted in a fight back then?  Gordie Howe was notorious for elbowing yet only had 22 career fights.  Why?  Because nobody expected you to fight for throwing an elbow.  So if you really want "Old Time Hockey", then when Pavel gets elbowed, you should expect him to stop being a pansy and take it like a man instead of wanting Babs to send out an enforcer.

Sorry, but a love tap doesn't concuss you.  Manhandled might be a tad strong, but this was merely an example.  I'm not going to totally derail this thread, but I will leave you with Gordie's elbows were legendary, yes, but he didn't use them unadvisedly.  And the evolution of the game has had players focus on skill, not strength for the most part.  This leads to the need for policemen.


Can't wait to read the "Phoenix: I still think it's a hockey market" chapter of Gary Bettman's autobiography. I'm guessing it's going to be chapter 11.

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#152 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:15 PM

Sorry, but a love tap doesn't concuss you.  Manhandled might be a tad strong, but this was merely an example.  I'm not going to totally derail this thread, but I will leave you with Gordie's elbows were legendary, yes, but he didn't use them unadvisedly.  And the evolution of the game has had players focus on skill, not strength for the most part.  This leads to the need for policemen.

 

I realize that there's a tendency to not want to say anything about a hockey hero that might come across as criticism.  But if you think that Gordie Howe didn't use his elbows in an unadvised way, you probably need to take a look at some of the myriad of articles, interviews, commentary, etc. that make reference to how often he would be suspended or fined if he played today. 

 

It's ok to be a fan boy, but to make Gordie Howe out to be some kind of gentleman does a disservice to what made Gordie Howe awesome in the first place.  He didn't fight, but man was he dirty. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#153 F.Michael

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:49 PM

Maybe it's not an age or a generational thing. The more I know and learn, it just becomes harder for me to be entertained by naked violence.

If Lemieux turned out like Moore, would you still feel the same way? It doesn't matter why McCarty did it. Bert was doing it to stick up for naslund. It shouldn't be allowed because you run the unnecessary risk of severely injuring someone. Although I don't support fighting, it would have been far better to pummel Lemieux face to face, when he's consenting. Not some blindside punch he wasn't expecting. If Lemieux doesn't want to fight, put him into the boards, hard, every chance you get. Also, you could just win. How much does mccarty's fight mean if we ended up losing to the Av's in the playoffs?

Lemieux's hit from behind on Draper along the boards  resulted in a broken cheek bone, a boken upper jaw, oral lacerations,  and if I remember correctly - several teeth were lost.....What if Lemieux's hit on Draper resulted in far greater injuries?

 

McCarty's assault on Lemieux resulted in facial lacerations, probably a concussion, and public humiliation to millions of viewers.

 

The end result: the Detroit Red Wings bonded; came from behind to win that game in OT, and became a legit Cup contender for many years after.


Edited by F.Michael, 13 December 2013 - 03:07 PM.


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#154 RyaN_84

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:26 PM

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=438921

 

looks like we'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out how many games thornton gets suspended.

has there ever been this long of a delay for a suspension?!

​at any rate, anything less then 20 games is a joke imo.



#155 sleepwalker

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:46 PM

GTFO

 

Neal only got 5 games for his knee to the head, which was way worse than what Thornton did, so anything MORE than 5 games for Thornton is a joke.

 

 

 

 

Edit:  though the NHL in general is a complete joke when it comes to discipline, and their complete hypocrisy when handing out discipline, so I fully expect Thornton to get 10, maybe more.  We'll have to wait until Shanny spins his wheel of justice to see what happens.


Edited by sleepwalker, 13 December 2013 - 07:52 PM.


#156 RyaN_84

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:56 PM

I agree with you on that.
 
But anything less than 20 games is a joke. Have we regressed to the point where this type of behavior is now tolerated? 


#157 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 09:58 PM

Interesting read:

@RedWingsFeed: Cam Cole: NHL covers its legal backside in weighing Thornton ban: Nearly a... http://t.co/XlSHV3l6pt via @TheWindsorStar #NHL #RedWings

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#158 F.Michael

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:26 AM

GTFO

 

Neal only got 5 games for his knee to the head, which was way worse than what Thornton did, so anything MORE than 5 games for Thornton is a joke.

 

 

 

 

Edit:  though the NHL in general is a complete joke when it comes to discipline, and their complete hypocrisy when handing out discipline, so I fully expect Thornton to get 10, maybe more.  We'll have to wait until Shanny spins his wheel of justice to see what happens.

If it were only 10 games I'm thinking we would've heard from Shanahan by now...Me thinks the league will come down hard on Thornton.

 

I agree with you on that.
 
But anything less than 20 games is a joke. Have we regressed to the point where this type of behavior is now tolerated? 

 

20 games sounds realistic.



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#159 cnot19

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:28 AM

I hope its not 20


Get me a real fourth line Kenny!

#160 frankgrimes

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:16 AM

Neal got 5, so Thornton shouldn't be over 12 at the absolute max.

 

Maybe just maybe the Penguins are already starting to regret, letting BigMac go *g*


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