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#1 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 09:11 AM

This thread was coming sooner or later.

I can't understand the massive step backwards he's taken this year. He was improving for so long and I finally thought he might have earned a permanent spot with this lineup.

Nowadays, however, I wouldn't mind if we got rid of him. He and Quincey are always good for at least two mind-numbing plays during a game.

#2 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 09:18 AM

I agree he's not as good as last year, but when you've already got that opinion of a guy you're looking for every little thing he does wrong.  And when it's a third pairing defenseman, there's a lot of ammo. 

 

Example:  It was either last game, or two games ago that Datsyuk got completely undressed along the goal line for a goal.  Not a single mention of it in the GDT.  Why?  It doesn't happen often, and nobody scrutinizes Datsyuk.  It's easier to keep banging away on something Kindl or Quincey does. 

 

Another Example:  Mr. streaky and inconsistent Johan Franzen had shorter goal scoring droughts last year than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.  Any mention at the time of them disappearing from the score sheet?  Nope.  Franzen gets that title hung from his neck.  Why?  Because he's already got the inconsistent tag.

 

In conclusion, Kindl isn't very good defensively.  He's not supposed to be.  He's a third pairing guy who's an offensive d-man and is on track to score around 30 pts. this year.  He's doing his job.  We're not losing games because of Kindl.


Edited by kipwinger, 13 December 2013 - 09:28 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#3 rick zombo

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:07 AM

I agree he's not as good as last year, but when you've already got that opinion of a guy you're looking for every little thing he does wrong.  And when it's a third pairing defenseman, there's a lot of ammo. 

 

Example:  It was either last game, or two games ago that Datsyuk got completely undressed along the goal line for a goal.  Not a single mention of it in the GDT.  Why?  It doesn't happen often, and nobody scrutinizes Datsyuk.  It's easier to keep banging away on something Kindl or Quincey does. 

 

Another Example:  Mr. streaky and inconsistent Johan Franzen had shorter goal scoring droughts last year than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.  Any mention at the time of them disappearing from the score sheet?  Nope.  Franzen gets that title hung from his neck.  Why?  Because he's already got the inconsistent tag.

 

In conclusion, Kindl isn't very good defensively.  He's not supposed to be.  He's a third pairing guy who's an offensive d-man and is on track to score around 30 pts. this year.  He's doing his job.  We're not losing games because of Kindl.

 

Qunicey, on the other hand..........................


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#4 dobbles

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:22 AM

kindl has regressed some this year which makes me sad. i still had high hopes for him even before everyone jumped back on his bandwagon last year. i do agree with kip though in that right now he is just a 3rd pairing guy and probably will never be anything more. after his good year last year i had hoped he might have a shot at being a fill in top 4 guy, but that is probably unrealistic at this point.

 

the biggest thing i think is getting rid of quincey and finding a better defensive defenseman for the bottom pairing. this is one of the few times i wouldnt mind seeing them go out and get a veteran as they really just need to keep the seat warm for a year or two until we get more of our guys through the system. heck, i even see kindl being done with the team once his contract runs out in a couple seasons and we have some of those guys like sproul and ouellet on the team.


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#5 rick zombo

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:36 AM

kindl has regressed some this year which makes me sad. i still had high hopes for him even before everyone jumped back on his bandwagon last year. i do agree with kip though in that right now he is just a 3rd pairing guy and probably will never be anything more. after his good year last year i had hoped he might have a shot at being a fill in top 4 guy, but that is probably unrealistic at this point.

 

the biggest thing i think is getting rid of quincey and finding a better defensive defenseman for the bottom pairing. this is one of the few times i wouldnt mind seeing them go out and get a veteran as they really just need to keep the seat warm for a year or two until we get more of our guys through the system. heck, i even see kindl being done with the team once his contract runs out in a couple seasons and we have some of those guys like sproul and ouellet on the team.

 

Exactly. Or a higher-end veteran in the mold of Boyle or Timonen that can play in the top four and provide some "real" offence. Someone old enough (late 30s) to warrant a maximum deal of two years.

 

In two years, Sproul, Ouelett, and Backman could all be ready :w00t:


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#6 dat's sick

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:40 AM

When Dekeyser returns it should mean Quincey sits. It has to. Kindl is having a bad season but isn't guilty of too many game-breaking mistakes. But he'll have to shape up or he's going to be out of here soon. Oullet could be ready next year.

#7 darkmanx

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:44 AM

I agree he's not as good as last year, but when you've already got that opinion of a guy you're looking for every little thing he does wrong.  And when it's a third pairing defenseman, there's a lot of ammo. 

 

Example:  It was either last game, or two games ago that Datsyuk got completely undressed along the goal line for a goal.  Not a single mention of it in the GDT.  Why?  It doesn't happen often, and nobody scrutinizes Datsyuk.  It's easier to keep banging away on something Kindl or Quincey does. 

 

Another Example:  Mr. streaky and inconsistent Johan Franzen had shorter goal scoring droughts last year than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.  Any mention at the time of them disappearing from the score sheet?  Nope.  Franzen gets that title hung from his neck.  Why?  Because he's already got the inconsistent tag.

 

In conclusion, Kindl isn't very good defensively.  He's not supposed to be.  He's a third pairing guy who's an offensive d-man and is on track to score around 30 pts. this year.  He's doing his job.  We're not losing games because of Kindl.

 

For your first example, it's also hard to criticize a player that has more takeaways then giveaways and has to help the D out enough as it is then to blame someone who once a game (see yesterday) for fully putting the puck on someone else's stick.

 

Your second example, it's hard to criticize D and Z when they play great two way games, along with producing at a PPG where Franzen does not.

 

All fairness you cannot compare blaming Datsyuk or Z on 90% of any goals scored because they are both + players and actually contribute to the team every night. I look at the body of work not a couple of mistakes, and Kindl and Quincey make a lot of mistakes per game.



#8 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:45 AM

I was saying earlier this season that I'd love a guy like Kulikov on this team.  He'll I'd even trade Kindl to get him.  Just as a bridge until two things happen (1) Smith, becomes a legit top four offensive d-man, and (2) Sproul or Quellet or whomever is ready to step into the third pairing offensive d-man role.  So for me, ideally...

 

Kronwall-Ericsson

Kulikov-Dekeyser

Smith-Lashoff

Kindl or Quencey as the 7th. 

 

And in a couple years

 

Kronwall-Ericsson

Smith-Dekeyser

Sproul/Ouellet-Lashoff

Whoever is leftover between Sproul/Ouellet as the 7th


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#9 GoalieManPat

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:50 AM

Kindl had some extra offensive jump last night which was good to see. Hes not a world beater and really hasnt developed into what the Wings expected but hes a decent 3rd pairing guy. In my opinion hes gone before his current contract is up once Sproul and Ouelett are ready. I also expect the wings to sign a top Dman within the next 3 years as well. Thats 3 spots the Wings will need to open up and Kronner, Big E, Dekeyser, and Smith are going nowhere which leaves him on the outs. Look at it this way. You could have Kindle or we could have the likes of Lebda. Your choice. 



#10 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:53 AM

I agree he's not as good as last year, but when you've already got that opinion of a guy you're looking for every little thing he does wrong.  And when it's a third pairing defenseman, there's a lot of ammo.


I agree that confirmation bias can happen. Like it does with Cleary, Smith, and pretty much any player someone here doesn't like, but you're going way too easy on Kindl.
 

Example:  It was either last game, or two games ago that Datsyuk got completely undressed along the goal line for a goal.  Not a single mention of it in the GDT.  Why?  It doesn't happen often, and nobody scrutinizes Datsyuk.  It's easier to keep banging away on something Kindl or Quincey does.


I pointed out Datsyuk getting undressed in the GDT, as did a few other people. But it is a pretty rare event. Kindl shying away from going into a corner to retrieve a puck however, is not.
 

Another Example:  Mr. streaky and inconsistent Johan Franzen had shorter goal scoring droughts last year than Datsyuk or Zetterberg.  Any mention at the time of them disappearing from the score sheet?  Nope.  Franzen gets that title hung from his neck.  Why?  Because he's already got the inconsistent tag.


When Dats and Z aren't scoring, they're still busting their ass out there. When Franzen isn't scoring it's often because he looks like he can't wait to get back to the bench. It's been said over and over here but Franzen defenders seem to ignore the distinction being made. With Mule it's not the lack of scoring, it's the stretches where there's a total lack of effort.
 

In conclusion, Kindl isn't very good defensively.  He's not supposed to be.  He's a third pairing guy who's an offensive d-man and is on track to score around 30 pts. this year.  He's doing his job.  We're not losing games because of Kindl.


Kindl's not supposed to be good defensively? He's a 26 year old first round pick originally pegged to be a top pairing guy. In his 4th year in the league he's a bottom pairing D man who still plays like a rookie. His biggest offensive move is to pull a Lebda, carry the puck up ice with speed and then at the slightest bit of pressure, drop pass it to someone like a hot potato.

On track to score 30 points is a projection that overlooks he's also on track to be -15. For all the grief Q gets for his plus minus, Kindl is only 4 behind him. And Quincey is second only to Ericsson in even strength minutes, whereas Kindl is 2nd only to Kronwall in PP minutes. Which is why 5 of his 10 points are PP assists.

Compared to the grief Smith gets for playing like the actual rookie that he is, if anything Kindl has gotten off easy.

#11 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:58 AM

 

For your first example, it's also hard to criticize a player that has more takeaways then giveaways and has to help the D out enough as it is then to blame someone who once a game (see yesterday) for fully putting the puck on someone else's stick.

 

Your second example, it's hard to criticize D and Z when they play great two way games, along with producing at a PPG where Franzen does not.

 

All fairness you cannot compare blaming Datsyuk or Z on 90% of any goals scored because they are both + players and actually contribute to the team every night. I look at the body of work not a couple of mistakes, and Kindl and Quincey make a lot of mistakes per game.

 

Of course they do, they're third pairing defensemen.  Here's a revelation, every single team's third pairing defensemen make more mistakes than their top pairing guys.  Every team's second line wingers aren't as good as their top line guys. 

 

That's nothing new.  But since it's the same for everyone, my guess is it doesn't make much of a difference to the team's overall standing.  The balance of our season does not pivot on the play of Kindl or Quincey.  Thinking it does is misguided.


I agree that confirmation bias can happen. Like it does with Cleary, Smith, and pretty much any player someone here doesn't like, but you're going way too easy on Kindl.
 

I pointed out Datsyuk getting undressed in the GDT, as did a few other people. But it is a pretty rare event. Kindl shying away from going into a corner to retrieve a puck however, is not.
 

When Dats and Z aren't scoring, they're still busting their ass out there. When Franzen isn't scoring it's often because he looks like he can't wait to get back to the bench. It's been said over and over here but Franzen defenders seem to ignore the distinction being made. With Mule it's not the lack of scoring, it's the stretches where there's a total lack of effort.
 

Kindl's not supposed to be good defensively? He's a 26 year old first round pick originally pegged to be a top pairing guy. In his 4th year in the league he's a bottom pairing D man who still plays like a rookie. His biggest offensive move is to pull a Lebda, carry the puck up ice with speed and then at the slightest bit of pressure, drop pass it to someone like a hot potato.

On track to score 30 points is a projection that overlooks he's also on track to be -15. For all the grief Q gets for his plus minus, Kindl is only 4 behind him. And Quincey is second only to Ericsson in even strength minutes, whereas Kindl is 2nd only to Kronwall in PP minutes. Which is why 5 of his 10 points are PP assists.

Compared to the grief Smith gets for playing like the actual rookie that he is, if anything Kindl has gotten off easy.

 

The reason I'm going easy on him is because he's a third pairing d-man who gets paid to chip in offense and he does that.  Quincey gets paid to be a defensive d-man and doesn't stop goals, Smith gets paid to be an offensive d-man and doesn't produce points, but Kindl actually does what he's supposed to do.  Produces modest points for a third pairing guy.  Getting on Kindl for not playing good defense is a lot like getting on Lashoff for not scoring goals. 


Edited by kipwinger, 13 December 2013 - 11:03 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#12 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:06 AM

The reason I'm going easy on him is because he's a third pairing d-man who gets paid to chip in offense and he does that.  Quincey gets paid to be a defensive d-man and doesn't stop goals, Smith gets paid to be an offensive d-man and doesn't produce points, but Kindl actually does what he's supposed to do.  Produces modest points for a third pairing guy.  Getting on Kindl for not playing good defense is a lot like getting on Lashoff for not scoring goals.

I'm guessing the Wings didn't sign Kindl to a $2.4 million 4-year contract because they were content with him being a bottom pairing guy who picks up some points.

I'm certainly not happy with Quincey's play but he's asked to do more than Kindl. I'd put them about even at bad play when you factor in how much more Kindl is protected out there. And as I said, Smith is a rookie. This is his first full season in the NHL.

Offensive defenseman aren't supposed to be responsible defensively? I'm not asking him to be Nick Lidstrom. I'd just hope he didn't still shy away from being hit and make rookie mistakes. I couldn't disagree more that he should get a free pass just because he's put up 10 points, 5 of which are PP assists.

If the Wings defense were set and all Kindl was ever supposed to be was a bottom pairing plug, I'd be pretty okay with it. But they're a young defensive corps that needs guys to step up and he continues to play like a rookie that's 5'10" and 175 lbs instead of a veteran who's 6'3" and 216 lbs (2nd biggest on defense to Ericsson).

#13 darkmanx

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:13 AM

 

Of course they do, they're third pairing defensemen.  Here's a revelation, every single team's third pairing defensemen make more mistakes than their top pairing guys.  Every team's second line wingers aren't as good as their top line guys. 

 

That's nothing new.  But since it's the same for everyone, my guess is it doesn't make much of a difference to the team's overall standing.  The balance of our season does not pivot on the play of Kindl or Quincey.  Thinking it does is misguided.


 

The reason I'm going easy on him is because he's a third pairing d-man who gets paid to chip in offense and he does that.  Quincey gets paid to be a defensive d-man and doesn't stop goals, Smith gets paid to be an offensive d-man and doesn't produce points, but Kindl actually does what he's supposed to do.  Produces modest points for a third pairing guy.  Getting on Kindl for not playing good defense is a lot like getting on Lashoff for not scoring goals. 

 

He's getting a lot of money to be a third pair defensemen, after last year I think everyone thought he made that jump but now is he trending backwards. Third pairing D-men also get to play against easier opponents, if he was playing against 1st line players I would hate to see his stats.



#14 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:31 AM

I'm guessing the Wings didn't sign Kindl to a $2.4 million 4-year contract because they were content with him being a bottom pairing guy who picks up some points.

I'm certainly not happy with Quincey's play but he's asked to do more than Kindl. I'd put them about even at bad play when you factor in how much more Kindl is protected out there. And as I said, Smith is a rookie. This is his first full season in the NHL.

Offensive defenseman aren't supposed to be responsible defensively? I'm not asking him to be Nick Lidstrom. I'd just hope he didn't still shy away from being hit and make rookie mistakes. I couldn't disagree more that he should get a free pass just because he's put up 10 points, 5 of which are PP assists.

If the Wings defense were set and all Kindl was ever supposed to be was a bottom pairing plug, I'd be pretty okay with it. But they're a young defensive corps that needs guys to step up and he continues to play like a rookie that's 5'10" and 175 lbs instead of a veteran who's 6'3" and 216 lbs (2nd biggest on defense to Ericsson).

 

Look, the gist of what you're getting at is that he should be much better.  I agree.  I'm at work so I really don't want to go through that post point by point.  So, off the cuff, here's a couple things. 

 

1.  I never said he gets a free pass defensively, I said less is expected because he's an offensive d-man.  That's not really out of the blue either.  Nobody expects Kronwall to be as good defensively as Suter, or even Francois Beauchemin...because he's an offensive d-man.  Same applies for third pairing guys (except the expectations are even lower).

 

2.  Of course more is expected of Quincey, it should be.  He's a better, and more established player than Kindl or Smith.  The fact that he's not living up to it is what's so baffling. 

 

3.  This is perhaps where you and I differ when it comes to Kindl.  I think his second worst +/- is more than offset by his second best point total for a defenseman (on this team).  I think his defense leading turnovers (tied with Smith) are probably offset by having the fewest penalties of any defenseman (Smith is first).  The fact that 50% of his scoring comes on the powerplay is really no different than Kronwall's 50% scored on the powerplay (including all his goals). 

 

4.  Finally, he's also third on the defense in takeaways, fourth in hits, fifth in blocked shots, first in games played, and tied for second in shots on goal.

 

In conclusion: All of the above suggests to me that he's a decent middle of the road defenseman.  Which he is.  He's not more, or less.  And really, was the organization expecting a whole lot more.  Sure, when he was drafted the expected more.  But that ship sailed a long time ago.  He's a middle of the pack guy who will (rightly) be replaced the second somebody better comes along.  If that's enough to get blamed for all the cosmological woes of Red Wings nation then I guess he deserves it, but I think it's excessive.  It would be like blaming Drew Miller for how bad the team is.


 

He's getting a lot of money to be a third pair defensemen, after last year I think everyone thought he made that jump but now is he trending backwards. Third pairing D-men also get to play against easier opponents, if he was playing against 1st line players I would hate to see his stats.

 

First line players also play with better teammates, so chances are his already decent offensive numbers would be a lot better.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#15 wingfan1991

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:22 PM

Kindl reeeeeeks! Can't wait for dekeyser to come back.

#16 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:38 PM

Kindl reeeeeeks! Can't wait for dekeyser to come back.

 

Dekeyser coming back would likely have no effect on Kindl, as his return would push Lashoff down the ladder. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#17 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:02 PM

This goes on every year, there's a few players pointed out as the "problem" and it's never considered as a team sport like it should be. For a game we just lost that was 1-1 going into a shootout, a defensemen is picked out as today's subject of concern. It's kind of strange considering 1 goal was allowed that the defense is what is brought up and not the offense as a whole. 

 

There has been 5 goals allowed total in the last 3 games, all 3 games which were losses. In games where you are only allowing 1 or 2 goals against should be wins most of the time, and when they aren't the goaltender isn't being supported enough offensively. There lies the problem and what I think should be the focus, the offense or lack there of the past few games that should have been wins. Not Cleary and Sammy who are 4th liners, because the reliance and expectations of them offensively getting 4th line minutes as the hate continues to grow is getting a bit silly. I'm talking the guys who get the minutes, like Alfredsson, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, to step up and net these goals because their job on the 1st and 2nd line is to put up offense. We can't rely on Datsyuk and sometimes Franzen to do it all.

 

This week, for me, i'm seeing a lot of Quincey hate, and now Kindl, and I really have trouble jumping on this wagon considering the goals against in recent games. If we gave up 10-15 goals in the last 3 games, sure it's a problem with the defense. But allowing as few as 1-2 per game and still losing, i'm directing my discouragement elsewhere. 

 

To sum it up and bring out my point, Kindl and his play here recently is at the lower end of my list of concerns.


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#18 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:04 PM

This goes on every year, there's a few players pointed out as the "problem" and it's never considered as a team sport like it should be. For a game we just lost that was 1-1 going into a shootout, a defensemen is picked out as today's subject of concern. It's kind of strange considering 1 goal was allowed that the defense is what is brought up and not the offense as a whole. 

 

There has been 5 goals allowed total in the last 3 games, all 3 games which were losses. In games where you are only allowing 1 or 2 goals against should be wins most of the time, and when they aren't the goaltender isn't being supported enough offensively. There lies the problem and what I think should be the focus, the offense or lack there of the past few games that should have been wins. Not Cleary and Sammy who are 4th liners, because the reliance and expectations of them offensively getting 4th line minutes as the hate continues to grow is getting a bit silly. I'm talking the guys who get the minutes, like Alfredsson, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, to step up and net these goals because their job on the 1st and 2nd line is to put up offense. We can't rely on Datsyuk and sometimes Franzen to do it all.

 

This week, for me, i'm seeing a lot of Quincey hate, and now Kindl, and I really have trouble jumping on this wagon considering the goals against in recent games. If we gave up 10-15 goals in the last 3 games, sure it's a problem with the defense. But allowing as few as 1-2 per game and still losing, i'm directing my discouragement elsewhere. 

 

To sum it up and bring out my point, Kindl and his play here recently is at the lower end of my list of concerns.

 

Well said.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#19 joesuffP

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:19 PM

Bring in Edler and pair Smith with Ericsson and I bet he looks a lot more like a top 4 defensemen.

#20 dirtydangles

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:51 PM

I was saying earlier this season that I'd love a guy like Kulikov on this team.  He'll I'd even trade Kindl to get him.  Just as a bridge until two things happen (1) Smith, becomes a legit top four offensive d-man, and (2) Sproul or Quellet or whomever is ready to step into the third pairing offensive d-man role.  So for me, ideally...

 

Kronwall-Ericsson

Kulikov-Dekeyser

Smith-Lashoff

Kindl or Quencey as the 7th. 

 

And in a couple years

 

Kronwall-Ericsson

Smith-Dekeyser

Sproul/Ouellet-Lashoff

Whoever is leftover between Sproul/Ouellet as the 7th

Kulikov is no stop gap - he is a young Dman who would be playing on this team for 10 years. It would be more than Kindl to get him too. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?






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