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#21 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:01 PM

Kulikov is no stop gap - he is a young Dman who would be playing on this team for 10 years. It would be more than Kindl to get him too. 

 

Agreed, it would definitely take more than Kindl to get him.  And I meant he'd be a stop gap in the sense that you have quality young offensive d-men coming and likely given Kulikov's age he won't get a super long term deal.  3 maybe 4 years max.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#22 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:30 PM

Bring in Edler and pair Smith with Ericsson and I bet he looks a lot more like a top 4 defensemen.

I'm a fan of Edler, but with that said he's not great defensively. He generally puts up good offensive numbers to make up for it but before injury this season he had 9 points and was a -12 through 27 games, neither stat is impressive especially playing for a solid team like Vancouver (18-10-5). He is relatively Girardi-like in his style, puts up some hits and blocks a lot of shots but also has respectable offensive talent. 

 

That could mean one of two things, he could more likely be dealt because of him being a bit off this year, but also at the expense of being a risk to play the same way here, cost a good chunk of money ($5 mil per) and still not really improve our defensive game. The additional offense would be nice but again, the minus 12 on a very good team is concerning. 


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#23 dobbles

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:44 PM

This goes on every year, there's a few players pointed out as the "problem" and it's never considered as a team sport like it should be. For a game we just lost that was 1-1 going into a shootout, a defensemen is picked out as today's subject of concern. It's kind of strange considering 1 goal was allowed that the defense is what is brought up and not the offense as a whole. 

 

There has been 5 goals allowed total in the last 3 games, all 3 games which were losses. In games where you are only allowing 1 or 2 goals against should be wins most of the time, and when they aren't the goaltender isn't being supported enough offensively. There lies the problem and what I think should be the focus, the offense or lack there of the past few games that should have been wins. Not Cleary and Sammy who are 4th liners, because the reliance and expectations of them offensively getting 4th line minutes as the hate continues to grow is getting a bit silly. I'm talking the guys who get the minutes, like Alfredsson, Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, to step up and net these goals because their job on the 1st and 2nd line is to put up offense. We can't rely on Datsyuk and sometimes Franzen to do it all.

 

This week, for me, i'm seeing a lot of Quincey hate, and now Kindl, and I really have trouble jumping on this wagon considering the goals against in recent games. If we gave up 10-15 goals in the last 3 games, sure it's a problem with the defense. But allowing as few as 1-2 per game and still losing, i'm directing my discouragement elsewhere. 

 

To sum it up and bring out my point, Kindl and his play here recently is at the lower end of my list of concerns.

 

let me first say that i think this thread and the opinion of kindl is still pretty tame. its not as if anyone wants him benched, traded, executed, etc. just some people that are disappointed with his play thus far.

 

with that said, i still think criticism can be warranted in spite of what you bring up. because yes we need to be scoring more goals, but would that not be easier if we weren't getting hemmed in our zone too much because of bad breakout passes? there is a lot of play in our own end and through the neutral zone that can lead us to these chances. and that's more of what worries me. to me its not about the high profile plays that end up leading directly to goals. those get enough attention. its the little plays that end up keeping us stuck in our zone for 30 extra seconds, or cause someone else to take a penalty as we scramble around.

 

its the little mistakes like that that have crept back into kindls game this year. and those kind of mistakes are just as important to winning as our shootout woes, holding leads, etc.

 

the reason you see people singled out every year is that there are bound to be players underperforming an causing the team more harm than good. that doesn't mean people are bad fans for pointing it out. it just means that in a team game there are always weak links. and we have to talk about something to keep the message board alive~!


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#24 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:48 PM

Dekeyser coming back would likely have no effect on Kindl, as his return would push Lashoff down the ladder.

To be clear, I don't think Kindl is near the top of this team's woes.

My beef with him is basically the same as it has been. He's way to easily intimidated and pushed around for a guy as big as he is. And he has the skillset to be much better a player.

I mentioned his assists on the PP because I'd venture to guess half of his assists are secondary, and those are even easier to pick up when you get as much PP time as he does. One of the few places Kindl had excelled was on the PP, particularly at getting shots through to the net, but he seems to have regressed there too lately.

#25 joesuffP

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:59 PM

I'm a fan of Edler, but with that said he's not great defensively. He generally puts up good offensive numbers to make up for it but before injury this season he had 9 points and was a -12 through 27 games, neither stat is impressive especially playing for a solid team like Vancouver (18-10-5). He is relatively Girardi-like in his style, puts up some hits and blocks a lot of shots but also has respectable offensive talent. 
 
That could mean one of two things, he could more likely be dealt because of him being a bit off this year, but also at the expense of being a risk to play the same way here, cost a good chunk of money ($5 mil per) and still not really improve our defensive game. The additional offense would be nice but again, the minus 12 on a very good team is concerning. 


I think adding a confident puck moving defensemen will change the whole dynamic of the Defense. Lets Ericsson and Kronwall relax and play to their strengths. If Babcock used our defensemen to their strengths and stopped trying to change the player they are it would also benefit the team

#26 wings_fanatic

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:38 PM

I would love Kindl to be packed up and traded for a better Dman. IMO Kindl on the 2nd pp is not working and he should not be on the 2nd PP over Brendan Smith. I have no idea what is taking Babs so long to figure that out.



#27 kipwinger

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 06:20 PM

To be clear, I don't think Kindl is near the top of this team's woes.

My beef with him is basically the same as it has been. He's way to easily intimidated and pushed around for a guy as big as he is. And he has the skillset to be much better a player.

I mentioned his assists on the PP because I'd venture to guess half of his assists are secondary, and those are even easier to pick up when you get as much PP time as he does. One of the few places Kindl had excelled was on the PP, particularly at getting shots through to the net, but he seems to have regressed there too lately.

 

Fair enough, and I'm not disagreeing with your criticisms.  I guess I'm just ok with his shortcomings when balanced against what he brings to the table.  But as I've said all along, I assume he'll be replaced by someone better soon enough, and I wouldn't be opposed to him being moved now in the right package. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#28 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 06:37 PM

I think adding a confident puck moving defensemen will change the whole dynamic of the Defense. Lets Ericsson and Kronwall relax and play to their strengths. If Babcock used our defensemen to their strengths and stopped trying to change the player they are it would also benefit the team

This I would agree with, especially if it was at the cost of Kindl. We were at our best with a nice offensive one-two punch on the blue line with Lidstrom and Rafalski, I think a Kronwall/Edler combo or even split between the top two D lines would be beneficial especially on the power play.


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#29 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:05 PM

We needed a lot of things from this defense for this season to be successful.

1. Smith to start trending towards, at the very least, being a top-four offensive defenseman.

2. Kindl to continue to grow his game and contribute more and more as time went on.

3. Kronwall and Ericsson to stay healthy and play consistently well on the top pairing.

4. Quincey to be...well...any bit better.

5. DeKeyser to lock down a spot as a defensive defenseman in the top-4.

None but one of those have happened (and I think it's pretty obvious which one it is), and not all for the fault of the player in question. Number 3 has half-happened, I suppose.

#30 joesuffP

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:30 PM

I wonder what would happen if we had signed Schultz or Mike Green what Babcock would do with them. He seems to hate offensive defensemen

#31 Motown4013

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 07:50 PM

To be clear, I don't think Kindl is near the top of this team's woes.My beef with him is basically the same as it has been. He's way to easily intimidated and pushed around for a guy as big as he is. And he has the skillset to be much better a player.I mentioned his assists on the PP because I'd venture to guess half of his assists are secondary, and those are even easier to pick up when you get as much PP time as he does. One of the few places Kindl had excelled was on the PP, particularly at getting shots through to the net, but he seems to have regressed there too lately.

Harold- you totally hit the nail on the head. My knock on Kindl throughout this career is that he will not take a hit to make a play. He won't g in to dirty areas.....he is always trying to avoid contact which affects his decision making down low.....basically, the guy is a coward. Most of his turnovers are a direct result of being intimidated off the puck. I look at Tatar and the little dude will get jacked up to make a play.
Kindl has all the skills to be in the top 4 but he never will if he isn't willing to pay the physical price.
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#32 Dabura

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:57 AM

I like Kindl. I think he's a sleeper, a late-bloomer. I think he's trying to figure himself out, become himself. Before last season, we all had him pegged as a defensive defenseman who doesn't use his size. Now we think of him as an offensive defenseman.

 

Bottom line: he's 26. That's around the age when forwards tend to break out. It's typically a bit later for defensemen, 27 or 28 (see: Ericsson, Jonathan). So I'd hate to see us deal Kindl then watch him tear it up with some other team.

 

On the other hand, I wonder if a package of Quincey, Kindl, Almqvist, and maybe a first-round pick or a promising forward prospect (Pulkkinen?) might be enough to fetch us something really good.


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#33 DatsyukToZetterberg

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:04 AM

I like Kindl. I think he's a sleeper, a late-bloomer. I think he's trying to figure himself out, become himself. Before last season, we all had him pegged as a defensive defenseman who doesn't use his size. Now we think of him as an offensive defenseman.
 
Bottom line: he's 26. That's around the age when forwards tend to break out. It's typically a bit later for defensemen, 27 or 28 (see: Ericsson, Jonathan). So I'd hate to see us deal Kindl then watch him tear it up with some other team.
 
On the other hand, I wonder if a package of Quincey, Kindl, Almqvist, and maybe a first-round pick or a promising forward prospect (Pulkkinen?) might be enough to fetch us something really good.

I would love to think it would, but teams don't want our spare parts and a few unproven, boom-or-bust prospects for something worthwhile.

#34 Dabura

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:10 AM

Actually, I'm gonna go ahead and answer my own question: that would not be nearly enough to land us something really good. Unless maybe it's an Edler situation where the guy is really struggling and clearly needs a change of scenery and we have sort of the "inside track" on him because we consider him a big fish that got away from us on draft day and we've tried trading for him in the past.


I would love to think it would, but teams don't want our spare parts and a few unproven, boom-or-bust prospects for something worthwhile.

 

Heh, yeah, I realized how stupid it sounded immediately after I posted it.


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#35 Dabura

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:35 AM

I wonder what would happen if we had signed Schultz or Mike Green what Babcock would do with them. He seems to hate offensive defensemen

 

Mike Babcock would kill Mike Green. Literally. He would punch him in the head repeatedly until he died. That's a match made in hockey hell.

 

But, y'know, offensive defensemen are, by nature, frustrating for their coaches. Their job is to play defense, but their gift is...goal scoring, point production. Paul MacLean has, on more than one occasion, criticized Erik Karlsson for being a factor for both teams on the ice (the same thing Z said about Smith). Michele Therrien is not P. K. Subban's biggest fan. There's obvious tension between Adam Oates and Mike Green.

 

Point being, Nick Lidstrom was a god.


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#36 dicksmack

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:49 PM

Not to go heavy on the hubris but I've been saying for YEARS this guy is a bust.   The wings spent a 1st round pick on him and couldn't ever face up to their mistake...Everyone knows that the Wings are among the best in the league at recognizing and developing talent and it appears that the hubris vis a vis Kindl is on Kenny here.. no one is infallible... but you gotta get real and move on... I said years ago get something in a trade while he's still worth something...  Compare Kindl's arrival in the D after years of mediocrity in the AHL to Dekeyser's immediate poise and impact in the NHL...there's your difference.


Edited by dicksmack, 14 December 2013 - 10:54 PM.

Finally someone that can post with actually integrity, nice to see. :thumbup: --Carman

#37 wings_fanatic

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:53 PM

I was at the game tonight against s***sburg. Kindl is just a pain to watch. I was 6 rows from the class and had a very good view. He is so weak on the puck, is afraid to take a hit, makes dumb passes. The most frustrating part is that Kindl continues to get powerplay time on the 2nd unit. He is just not good enough to play point on the PP. He NEVER knows when to shoot or not to shoot- everytime he does shoot it is so obvious that it will be blocked before he even shoots it. I have no idea how much worse he needs to be on the PP before Babs gives Smith a try because Smith has earned it.



#38 joesuffP

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:42 AM

A guy like Dekeseyer coming in and outplaying everyone except 6+ year vets just shows how bad our defensive corpse is. DD is great but he is not a freak of nature, wings Defense is well below average. Stats are inflated by all the gifted defensive forwards and it's starting to catch up with them

#39 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:24 AM

I think that Kindl is probably our weakest defenseman right now, yes weaker than Quincey.
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#40 joesuffP

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:34 AM

Smith was outstanding for his first few games back from injury. Since then he has regressed a bit but is still good and making great offensive plays. He is on the upswing. Why not reward him. Atleast put him and Kindl out there. Makes no sense





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