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seenitall

Wings muscle?

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Datsyuk gets hammered in the face,no one steps up,Abe gets nailed in the head,no one steps up,all the teams see this an see they can take out any player on the Wings with no retaliation,don't think Mac or Joey would allow that

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I have more muscle than some of these guys. Boy, do I ever miss Mac. I have said for years that all I want is a player out there - like Mac - who makes the other team look over their shoulders as they leave the ice. They didn't pull crap on the goalies and other players on the Wings roster when there was some sort of pay back coming. Shanny, Lilja, even Fischer would use their size and strength to lay down the law.

Toots isn't Mac, but at least he was willing to try to defend his team mates.

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What's aggravating is we have Tootoo sitting by doing nothing for us and he'd fit into this role perfectly.

Nah man, we're way too busy letting Cleary collect a paycheck to do nothing.

ben_usmc likes this

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Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Westgarth.


They didn't pull crap on the goalies and other players on the Wings roster when there was some sort of pay back coming.

Of course they did. It's just that payback would ultimately come, which made us all feel better about ourselves.

GMRwings1983 likes this

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I couldn't agree more. Even Z's injury could be part of the beating he takes each night he is on the ice. This team needs some muscle and some heart. I have seen more push back from Tatar then almost any Wing this year. and that is sad. Its really easy to blame injury but there is a lot wrong with this team. Babcock is an amazing coach but even Scotty Bowman didn't coach teams forever.....is the message getting old? A big gritty D-man would be a good start.

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I agree but it doesn't need to be a goon. Guys like lapointe and shanahan were the best. Guys who can do a little everything and but also have the toughness to hit and fight when needed. We've seen glimpses from like Smith and Ericsson but not enough.

Guys who use their body, can share, score, hit and sometimes fights are what we need. Unfortunately they're hard to find especially since wed rather keep our undersized pass first players over guys that we NEED.

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To be fair, Abdelkader had a chance to do something himself when Engelland hit him high earlier in the game, but did nothing as per usual. But you have a better chance of winning the Mega Millions than you do of seeing Holland sign/trade for an enforcer. Remember, we make teams pay on the powerplay (assuming a penalty is even called), like we did with that 5 minute major...

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To be fair, Abdelkader had a chance to do something himself when Engelland hit him high earlier in the game, but did nothing as per usual. But you have a better chance of winning the Mega Millions than you do of seeing Holland sign/trade for an enforcer. Remember, we make teams pay on the powerplay (assuming a penalty is even called), like we did with that 5 minute major...

I didn't see the game, but did see the replay...From what I could tell - Abby was in no position since he was far too 'wobbly' from the hit to the jaw...Now even if Abby were not injured - he'd likely would've been if he were to engage Engelland (Abby isn't very good at it, and Engelland is a known/experienced tuff guy).

I agree that this team lacks that physical edge...Only problem is - Holland, & Co aren't drafting these guys, and the handful that are available (read current Maple Leaf Clarkson) are waaaay overpaid because there's not many around (unlike what we saw 10 plus years ago).

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What's aggravating is we have Tootoo sitting by doing nothing for us and he'd fit into this role perfectly.

What's aggravating is that they can't score any goals.

They might want to figure out how to score goals before doing anything else. It's probably going to take a while, though, as they are completely clueless at the moment when it comes to that particular subject.

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Instead we spend our money on Cleary who brings NOTHING and cy to shanny about people picking on us. crying like a bunch if little BITCHS! They missed the call........ he should be suspended........ we need to remove fighting from the game........... PP is our enforcer...... Even if every goon is removed from the game and every play worthy of a suspension is caught, who is worse off? a 4th line checker that is suspended or a star C like Datsyuk? Most teams and coaches would make that trade in a heart beat and not think twice about it.

frankgrimes and esteef like this

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Muscle? Nah, why employ someone who will keep other teams honest? Instead, let the league take care of incidents like the Cowen hit on Datsyuk.

...Wait.

Personally my ideal fourth line would contain Westgarth, Peluso and Orr (that's less than 4 million for a whole line!) - that's not a lot of cap spent (= more money for the other 3 lines) and boy oh boy this line could easily go toe to toe with the toughest ones in the NHL. Sure Neil would fight Orr or Westgarth, kassasian too but then ...well fair game against Spezza, Karlsson and Cowen I bet a lot of money, the guy would bring his cleanest game and not even looking at Pasha.

Enough with this soft eurostyled hockey, if I wanted to watch that I'd be watching some local games which are boring as hell.

tl;dr yup more muscle and a change of attitude is really needed

Edited by frankgrimes
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Personally my ideal fourth line would contain Westgarth, Peluso and Orr (that's less than 4 million for a whole line!) - that's not a lot of cap spent (= more money for the other 3 lines) and boy oh boy this line could easily go toe to toe with the toughest ones in the NHL. Sure Neil would fight Orr or Westgarth, kassasian too but then ...well fair game against Spezza, Karlsson and Cowen I bet a lot of money, the guy would bring his cleanest game and not even looking at Pasha.

tl;dr yup more muscle and a change of attitude is really needed

I whole-heartedly agree. We have all the talent, and nothing to back it up. WE ARE PUSHOVERS

I whole-heartedly agree. We have all the talent, and nothing to back it up. WE ARE PUSHOVERS

29 other teams acknowledge that muscle/grit/intimidation are at least part of the game... except for us

frankgrimes and Hockeymom1960 like this

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Personally my ideal fourth line would contain Westgarth, Peluso and Orr (that's less than 4 million for a whole line!) - that's not a lot of cap spent (= more money for the other 3 lines) and boy oh boy this line could easily go toe to toe with the toughest ones in the NHL. Sure Neil would fight Orr or Westgarth, kassasian too but then ...well fair game against Spezza, Karlsson and Cowen I bet a lot of money, the guy would bring his cleanest game and not even looking at Pasha.

Enough with this soft eurostyled hockey, if I wanted to watch that I'd be watching some local games which are boring as hell.

tl;dr yup more muscle and a change of attitude is really needed

While it would be a breath of fresh air compared to Samuelsson-Emmerton-Cleary, a 4th line of Westgarth-Peluso-Orr would be too one-dimensional.

My idea of an ideal 4th line is something along the lines of Paille-Sobotka-McGrattan. Sobotka and Paille have the speed, in addition to playing a physical style. McGrattan, specifically, will keep the flies off.

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While it would be a breath of fresh air compared to Samuelsson-Emmerton-Cleary, a 4th line of Westgarth-Peluso-Orr would be too one-dimensional.

My idea of an ideal 4th line is something along the lines of Paille-Sobotka-McGrattan. Sobotka and Paille have the speed, in addition to playing a physical style. McGrattan, specifically, will keep the flies off.

I think Westgarth and especially Peluso are decent 4 liners, Orr's skating has improved temendously would they score a lot of goals? Doubtful, but that's not something I'd be expecting from my fourth line Peluso is a very good skater given his size, the kid can skate and hits everything that moves + can back it up against everyone.

McGrattan would be awesome but with their new GM there is no way, this guy will become available, sadly indeed.

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Before the season began Holland addressed this issue with a wait and see approach. I dont think he liked the answers he got. Sadly they will not bring in immediate help in the shape of an enforcer, but if I remember correctly Holland worded it as that it will be a gradual change over several seasons. I feel bad for the abuse players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tatar and Nyquist must endure because of this philosophy. And while it is true that an enforcer would not prevent all cheap shots, slashes etc against our skilled players, it will still do more than Shanahan or the PP will.

esteef and Detroit # 1 Fan like this

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Before the season began Holland addressed this issue with a wait and see approach. I dont think he liked the answers he got. Sadly they will not bring in immediate help in the shape of an enforcer, but if I remember correctly Holland worded it as that it will be a gradual change over several seasons. I feel bad for the abuse players like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Tatar and Nyquist must endure because of this philosophy. And while it is true that an enforcer would not prevent all cheap shots, slashes etc against our skilled players, it will still do more than Shanahan or the PP will.

Probert, and Kocur mentioned in their book 'The Bruise Bros' that they did their best to protect the stars - however every so often a cheap shot was taken against one of the skilled guys...If they couldn't take care of it that game - there was always the next game where they could finish their business...Many opponents had to keep their head on a swivel when Probie/Joey were on the ice, and that to some extent created some space for others.

Edited by F.Michael
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Man, you guys. It's not even that I necessarily disagree. But you're just so predictably silly about this.

Yeah, no one ever takes a run at your guys when you've got a tough guy in your lineup. (Lemieux-on-Draper, McLeod-on-Kronwall.)

And yeah, a fourth line with Orr and Westgarth and McGratton on it is definitely something we should do. Then, when the offense dries up even more and opposing teams exploit that unholy clusterf*** of a "line," we can all get on Holland's case because ZOMG WE'RE NOT SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING. WHAT OTHER TEAM HAS THREE ENFORCERS AS THEIR FOURTH LINE?

Dressing a fighter, in this day and age, is pretty much a waste. I get the argument for it, and I don't totally disagree. But, if John Scott is gonna take out Loui Eriksson, he's gonna do it. If James Neal is gonna knee Brad Marchand in the head, he's gonna do it. Having an enforcer just means you get to respond after the fact and make some kind of silly "statement" that doesn't really need to be made in the first place and isn't going to do much good. (ZOMG! Our guy who gets paid to take issue with transgressions takes issue with your transgression! What a statement!) Because, honestly, in all our years of not dressing an enforcer, how many times has a guy taken a clear-cut "run" at one of our soft Euro stars and badly injured him? We're talking, what, maybe five incidents? Which is probably at or below the league average over that span of time. Because, again, enforcers don't really deter. They just make "statements" after the fact. And then it happens again, and they get to make another "statement," after the fact.

This isn't the '80s, guys. This isn't the Norris Division. There aren't 18 fights per game. Today's game is not nearly as rough-and-tumble and dirty. It's won mostly with speed and skill. Why are the Avalanche winning so much this season? Because they're fast and they can score in bunches (and their goalies have been great). We can't score to save our lives, so, if anything, we might actually need more skill. Certainly we need to be more fleet of foot.

Not that I don't think we need to get tougher. We do. But we have to be reasonable about it. It has to be a change that'll help us win more games and ultimately win a Cup. Not something to make us feel like bigger men, because, ho ho ho, now we have a face-puncher to hide behind! That's how a man takes care of business! He hides behind a hired gun! I'd rather have more overall team toughness - though, again, we need to find a way to score more. So there has to be a balance. Not saying the two - skill and toughness - are mutually exclusive. I'm saying, basically, you can't just load up on one-dimensional tough guys and think it's going to make things a whole lot better, on any front.

If it were up to me, I'd take a good look at Ott and Westgarth this summer. I'd almost never dress the latter, but I'd have him just in case things get ludicrous and an actual statement has to be made. Or I'd play him with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Because that'd be awesome. (Not being sarcastic.) As for Ott - he's a pain in the ass who's not afraid to mix it up, throw his weight around, drop the gloves. Ott and Westgarth. That might be a nice first baby step on the road to getting tougher as a team.

I think most of it actually comes down to Babcock. He needs to preach a tougher, more aggressive and intense style. We generally play with no life, no oomph. Or, we'll have little flashes of intensity, but that's it. That has to change. We, as a team, have to bring it. Every shift, every game. We have to push the pace. We have to play to win, not to "not lose." We have to win those little battles that add up over 60 minutes. We have to be engaged and electric. I'd take all that over throwing three fighters into the mix.

Edited by Dabura

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Another thing bothers me is when it's one of the Swedes getting hurt, the other Swedes are right there to defend them but you don't see them in there when one of the other players get hurt. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this.

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Man, you guys. It's not even that I necessarily disagree. But you're just so predictably silly about this.

Yeah, no one ever takes a run at your guys when you've got a tough guy in your lineup. (Lemieux-on-Draper, McLeod-on-Kronwall.)

And yeah, a fourth line with Orr and Westgarth and McGratton on it is definitely something we should do. Then, when the offense dries up even more and opposing teams exploit that unholy clusterf*** of a "line," we can all get on Holland's case because ZOMG WE'RE NOT SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING. WHAT OTHER TEAM HAS THREE ENFORCERS AS THEIR FOURTH LINE?

Dressing a fighter, in this day and age, is pretty much a waste. I get the argument for it, and I don't totally disagree. But, if John Scott is gonna take out Loui Eriksson, he's gonna do it. If James Neal is gonna knee Brad Marchand in the head, he's gonna do it. Having an enforcer just means you get to respond after the fact and make some kind of silly "statement" that doesn't really need to be made in the first place and isn't going to do much good. (ZOMG! Our guy who gets paid to take issues with transgressions takes issue with your transgression! What a statement!) Because, honestly, in all our years of not dressing an enforcer, how many times has a guy taken a clear-cut "run" at one of our soft Euro stars and badly injured him? We're talking, what, maybe five incidents? Which is probably at or below the league average over that span of time. Because, again, enforcers don't really deter. They just make "statements" after the fact. And then it happens again, and they get to make another "statement," after the fact.

This isn't the '80s, guys. This isn't the Norris Division. There aren't 18 fights per game. Today's game is not nearly as rough-and-tumble and dirty. It's won mostly with speed and skill. Why are the Avalanche winning so much this season? Because they're fast and they can score in bunches (and their goalies have been great). We can't score to save our lives, so, if anything, we might actually need more skill. Certainly we need to be more fleet of foot.

Not that I don't think we need to get tougher. We do. But we have to be reasonable about it. It has to be a change that'll help us win more games and ultimately win a Cup. Not something to make us feel like bigger men, because, ho ho ho, now we have a face-puncher to hide behind! That's how a man takes care of business! He hides behind a hired gun! I'd rather have more overall team toughness - though, again, we need to find a way to score more. So there has to be a balance. Not saying the two - skill and toughness - are mutually exclusive. I'm saying, basically, you can't just load up on one-dimensional tough guys and think it's going to make things a whole lot better, on any front.

If it were up to me, I'd take a good look at Ott and Westgarth this summer. I'd almost never dress the latter, but I'd have him just in case things get ludicrous and an actual statement has to be made. Or I'd play him with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Because that'd be awesome. (Not being sarcastic.) As for Ott - he's a pain in the ass who's not afraid to mix it up, throw his weight around, drop the gloves. Ott and Westgarth. That might be a nice first baby step on the road to getting tougher as a team.

I think most of it actually comes down to Babcock. He needs to preach a tougher, more aggressive and intense style. We generally play with no life, no oomph. Or, we'll have little flashes of intensity, but that's it. That has to change. We, as a team, have to bring it. Every shift, every game. We have to push the pace. We have to play to win, not to "not lose." We have to win those little battles that add up over 60 minutes. We have to be engaged and electric. I'd take all that over throwing three fighters into the mix.

Years ago there was this silly joke when I was little...

Kid #1 - snaps his fingers.

Kid #2 - why are you snapping your fingers?

Kid #1 - to keep the lions away.

Kid #2 - there aren't any lions around here.

Kid #1 - see - it works.

Having guys whom are capable of playing the game, and capable of the 'extracurriculars' when needed is one of those luxuries we simply don't have, or it appears the Holland isn't willing to explore at any great lengths (Tootoo is an example of such, and is currently in GR - so much for that UFA signing)...To be honest - I feel it's best we draft these players rather than overpay via UFA.

It's hard to gauge the true value of these players, and their deterrent factor when taking into account the speed of todays game, and the physical play that includes questionable hits, and/or borderline/predatory/dirty play.

Unless we're on the ice, or in the dressing room - how can anyone here at LGW honestly say what the value/deterrent factor is with any player who is capable of defending a teammate when things get dicey on the ice?

I tend to lean towards what players both past, and present have to say regarding this matter...I don't ever recall reading anything about having a legit tuff guy/goon, or a guy who can stand up for a teammate when needed claiming that he was capable of thwarting each, and every threat to the smaller/more skilled players on the team...I find it to be a subtle reminder during the warm-ups as to who the opposition will most face that night, and it just might make some wary of how they may conduct themselves throughout the game.

Contrary to what some would like to believe - there's a reason why many here prefer the 97/98 Cup rosters over our 2008 roster...It's not just about winning - it's about winning with swagger - the confidence that you can handle your opponent not only on the scoreboard, but also in the 'trenches' if things were to get ugly...This is what I miss about our beloved Detroit Red Wings.

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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Another thing bothers me is when it's one of the Swedes getting hurt, the other Swedes are right there to defend them but you don't see them in there when one of the other players get hurt. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this.

Didn't Ericsson take a flying leap at McLeod immediately after he'd nailed Kronwall? (Honest question, because I'm not sure I'm remembering it right.)

And, in fairness, we almost always have about 15 Swedes on the ice at all times. So the lack of response doesn't necessarily make it a Swedish thing.

(Actually, the way I phrased it sort of does implicate the Swedes, doesn't it? Oh well. I guess we're finally too Swedish.)

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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Personally my ideal fourth line would contain Westgarth, Peluso and Orr (that's less than 4 million for a whole line!) - that's not a lot of cap spent (= more money for the other 3 lines) and boy oh boy this line could easily go toe to toe with the toughest ones in the NHL. Sure Neil would fight Orr or Westgarth, kassasian too but then ...well fair game against Spezza, Karlsson and Cowen I bet a lot of money, the guy would bring his cleanest game and not even looking at Pasha.

Enough with this soft eurostyled hockey, if I wanted to watch that I'd be watching some local games which are boring as hell.

tl;dr yup more muscle and a change of attitude is really needed

I would love that fourth line. That would be fun to watch

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