Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Wings muscle?


  • Please log in to reply
62 replies to this topic

#41 RyanBarnes!

RyanBarnes!

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:49 PM

Getting cheeky with Milwaukee is a far stretch from being able to protect and "keep the flies" off at the NHL level.  Like really...B Smith used to drop the gloves all the time in GR....why doesn't he do this now?  I thought he was so tough??  It's cause the reality is that AHL tough and NHL tough are two different universes apart.

Smith dropped the gloves with Neil which proves he got the balls. Main reason for not dropping them more often in the NHL is because he would get an earfull from his coach about being short a defenseman. Not that he is a fighter by any means, but I dont see your point. Guys that are NHL proven "tough" can be had at any time for the right price.

Edited by RyanBarnes!, 16 December 2013 - 01:51 PM.

"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#42 beachwing

beachwing

    Reader

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,217 posts
  • Location:Destin

Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:09 PM

I still feel Tootoo has a lot to offer (25-30pts) He has an offensiive upside which allegedly is why we picked him up along wiith keeping flies off.

Never really given a chance. Wish everyones enegry levels were primed liked Toots each shift.

Sure he occassionly gets a little crazy BUT thats exactly what you want...it was mentioned earlier that Mac used to have guys looking over their shoulder. 22 does the same thing, not an enforcer or goon, but a ball of chaos that makes opponets play diffrently when hes on the ice.

#43 Dabura

Dabura

    Cake Eater

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,057 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:24 PM

I still feel Tootoo has a lot to offer (25-30pts) He has an offensiive upside which allegedly is why we picked him up along wiith keeping flies off.

Never really given a chance. Wish everyones enegry levels were primed liked Toots each shift.

Sure he occassionly gets a little crazy BUT thats exactly what you want...it was mentioned earlier that Mac used to have guys looking over their shoulder. 22 does the same thing, not an enforcer or goon, but a ball of chaos that makes opponets play diffrently when hes on the ice.

 

I'd like to see what he could do on the third or second line, just as an experiment.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#44 Learn2LuvIt

Learn2LuvIt

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 546 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:34 PM

Smith dropped the gloves with Neil which proves he got the balls. Main reason for not dropping them more often in the NHL is because he would get an earfull from his coach about being short a defenseman. Not that he is a fighter by any means, but I dont see your point. Guys that are NHL proven "tough" can be had at any time for the right price.

If you watch that fight with Neil...Smith wanted nothing to do with him.  It took Neil a good 35 seconds to agitate and slash Smith and force him into dropping the gloves (I don't  blame Smith at all...Neil is a big time heavy weight).  So my point is that you can have players who you can say "Yeah, that guy can fight...he fought Neil ONCE!"....which is basically saying that he can defend himself if he needs to.  That's a far cry from having players who WANT to fight.  We don't have guys that want to fight.  Who thrive and get a kick out of pounding someone.  So, people can say "this guy or that guy can fight", "these young kids are tough, have you seen the AHL fight they were in last week!".  Doesn't mean a dam thing when they get on the ice with NHL caliber tough guys who will flat out hurt them.  

 

To my original point, Kenny and this staff don't see a need for guys that want to fight.  They'd fill that spot with skill and let guys fend for themselves on the ice.  Without a potent power play, and an offense that struggles to score, this is a dangerous assumption.


ENJOY THE RIDE

#45 Dabura

Dabura

    Cake Eater

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,057 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:52 PM

it is easier to adress the need for toughness/grit than to adress the top 6 and defense problems.

 

Yes, it is. And hey, I'm the guy who's saying we should sign Ott and Westgarth this summer, and that Babs needs to preach a tougher brand of hockey to his troops.

 

But the real priority should be addressing what's really killing us, which is goals, for and against. Every fan of every team will say this, but here it is anyway, because it's true: we need a top-four defenseman and/or a top-six winger. If our goal (pun) here is to win the Cup, we need some high-end help.

 

Also, I'm still not sold on the Vanek-to-Minny thing. Like I've said, it makes sense, but it's all just speculation. As far as I know, Vanek hasn't said anything about it. As far as I know, no one close to him or the organization has said anything about it. It all started with a local Minnesota guy (a reporter or pundit or something, I don't know exactly) saying, "Well, this would make sense." And now everyone takes it as a given that it's happening. It probably will happen. But let me pretend there's a chance he might come here. Don't take my hope away!


Don't Toews me, bro!


#46 Nev

Nev

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,971 posts
  • Location:Lincolnshire, England

Posted 16 December 2013 - 03:26 PM

Getting cheeky with Milwaukee is a far stretch from being able to protect and "keep the flies" off at the NHL level.  Like really...B Smith used to drop the gloves all the time in GR....why doesn't he do this now?  I thought he was so tough??  It's cause the reality is that AHL tough and NHL tough are two different universes apart.

 

I think in large part its because Babcock doesn't want him to fight so much.  A couple of years ago he got in a fight against Chicago and Babcock publicly threw him under the bus for leaving the team a D short.  Smith is trying to become a legit top-4 player, but he's still on pace for 6 fights this season.

 

Criticising him for not wanting to fight Neil is daft.  Neil is a legit enforcer, and Smith was in his first game back after a dislocated shoulder......sustained in a fight.  Newly healed part time fighter vs 10 year enforcer?

 

And if Holland is so against fighters, why did he just draft The Nephtuzzi in the 2nd round?


Edited by Nev, 16 December 2013 - 03:28 PM.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#47 Learn2LuvIt

Learn2LuvIt

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 546 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:28 PM

 

And if Holland is so against fighters, why did he just draft The Nephtuzzi in the 2nd round?

 

I can't say.  Good question.  But a better question that I think addresses the relevance of Hollands player philosophy above unexplained 2nd round draft picks....Can you name the last fighter that saw regular minutes/role with the Wings.  Tootoo did not see regular minutes and was essentially given little chance to play any role?  McCarty?  Shanny? An old Kocur?  Wow...that was a long, long time ago.  Long time.  


Edited by Learn2LuvIt, 16 December 2013 - 04:30 PM.

ENJOY THE RIDE

#48 cnot19

cnot19

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 500 posts
  • Location:New Jersey

Posted 16 December 2013 - 06:02 PM

The wings are one of the few teams without any players who are "mean". Hockey is a sport where hatred and animosity grow especially in the playoffs however there is no one on the wings who is truly a mean player. Tootoo is guys like lucic clarkson Matt Martin pronger etc are. They engage after the whistle they hit to hurt they cross check you in front etc. I am a believe in an enforcer but at the very least I think the wings need more guys who can be nasty
Get me a real fourth line Kenny!

#49 rick zombo

rick zombo

    Grit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,547 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 06:05 PM

Wings muscle? Please refer to helpful visual breakdown:

 

 

wingmuscles.jpg


"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#50 Dominator2005

Dominator2005

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,135 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 06:15 PM

Ericsson "went" after McL right after his hit on Kronwall... and after that game he was out with the shoulder injury...

He has no balls and this team is really missing some muscles.

 

I don't expect Kenny to trade for the size and muscles... he will "adressed" it during the summer with FA's and in september, we will have the same team without BALLS... Good luck with staying healthy


"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan

#51 Dominator2005

Dominator2005

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,135 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 07:16 PM

I want Gazdic


"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan

#52 RyanBarnes!

RyanBarnes!

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:39 AM

If you watch that fight with Neil...Smith wanted nothing to do with him.  It took Neil a good 35 seconds to agitate and slash Smith and force him into dropping the gloves (I don't  blame Smith at all...Neil is a big time heavy weight).  So my point is that you can have players who you can say "Yeah, that guy can fight...he fought Neil ONCE!"....which is basically saying that he can defend himself if he needs to.  That's a far cry from having players who WANT to fight.  We don't have guys that want to fight.  Who thrive and get a kick out of pounding someone.  So, people can say "this guy or that guy can fight", "these young kids are tough, have you seen the AHL fight they were in last week!".  Doesn't mean a dam thing when they get on the ice with NHL caliber tough guys who will flat out hurt them.  
 
To my original point, Kenny and this staff don't see a need for guys that want to fight.  They'd fill that spot with skill and let guys fend for themselves on the ice.  Without a potent power play, and an offense that struggles to score, this is a dangerous assumption.

the point was Smith got the balls. Most Red Wings do not. That's a problem for Kenny to deal with. There are options.
"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#53 RyanBarnes!

RyanBarnes!

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:39 AM

If you watch that fight with Neil...Smith wanted nothing to do with him.  It took Neil a good 35 seconds to agitate and slash Smith and force him into dropping the gloves (I don't  blame Smith at all...Neil is a big time heavy weight).  So my point is that you can have players who you can say "Yeah, that guy can fight...he fought Neil ONCE!"....which is basically saying that he can defend himself if he needs to.  That's a far cry from having players who WANT to fight.  We don't have guys that want to fight.  Who thrive and get a kick out of pounding someone.  So, people can say "this guy or that guy can fight", "these young kids are tough, have you seen the AHL fight they were in last week!".  Doesn't mean a dam thing when they get on the ice with NHL caliber tough guys who will flat out hurt them.  
 
To my original point, Kenny and this staff don't see a need for guys that want to fight.  They'd fill that spot with skill and let guys fend for themselves on the ice.  Without a potent power play, and an offense that struggles to score, this is a dangerous assumption.

the point was Smith got the balls. Most Red Wings do not. That's a problem for Kenny to deal with. There are options.
"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#54 number9

number9

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,728 posts
  • Location:East Lansing

Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:47 AM

I dont think we lack muscle, I think we lack heart/fire. After hitting Dats or Abby like that a guy like McCarty would have gone bezerk. Not saying that puts points on the board but I do think it really brings the team together and says hey lets beat these MOTHER *******



#55 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,035 posts

Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:15 AM

 

Yes, it is. And hey, I'm the guy who's saying we should sign Ott and Westgarth this summer, and that Babs needs to preach a tougher brand of hockey to his troops.

 

But the real priority should be addressing what's really killing us, which is goals, for and against. Every fan of every team will say this, but here it is anyway, because it's true: we need a top-four defenseman and/or a top-six winger. If our goal (pun) here is to win the Cup, we need some high-end help.

 

Also, I'm still not sold on the Vanek-to-Minny thing. Like I've said, it makes sense, but it's all just speculation. As far as I know, Vanek hasn't said anything about it. As far as I know, no one close to him or the organization has said anything about it. It all started with a local Minnesota guy (a reporter or pundit or something, I don't know exactly) saying, "Well, this would make sense." And now everyone takes it as a given that it's happening. It probably will happen. But let me pretend there's a chance he might come here. Don't take my hope away!

 

Look I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just trying to avoid another "Suter/Parise" situation. Players that really could help this team just aren't available I know it sucks and we are not used to it, but that is the sad reality. The point I'm trying to make is, why not have some "fun" during the rebuild/tool years and add tough guys? Most people will agree that this team isn't a Stanley Cup Roster (even if healthy). Believe me I sure hope you are right and maybe he is going to come here all I'm saying is don't your hopes up too high, because of the Suter situation. I really hope! Kenny has a plan B this time, if he doesn't get the UFA players he wants.

 

The thing about Neil is, he is a very underrated heavyweight fighter, the guy can throw and hang in with the best of them hell he even won against Orr, it just happens that he is a pretty decent fourth liner too so people think of him more like an agitator. I'm still impressed with the amount of balls Smith showed in accepting his challenge but the point is, he shouldn't have to be the one who is fighting Neil. After the Ottawa game a guy like Dmac or Kocur would have gone absolutely bonkers hitting and punching everything that moves, this is the kind of fire and teambuilding a team needs.

 

Is it really fair to ask a 38 old Bertuzzi to do it all? I don't think so and it's not like the current fourth line does provide anything, they aren't scoring goals aren't physical nor are they fighting so if I) could Kenny one thing this would be it. What does this fourth line bring? I've never been a fan of the Tootoo signing and probably never will be, but the guy has been used in the worst possible way either Kenny really believes in this PP is our enforcer crap (*cough* without the perfect human and Homer *cough*)relaly? Or Babcock has been missusing him.

 

In an ideal situation this off-season would see Kenny signing Phaneuf and Vanek, add Westgarth + Mcgratton/Orr but the chance of that to happen is very slim, so I'm trying not to dream big.

 

Personally I really don't know which task is the more difficult one, improving the top 6 or adding a #1 defender...but improving the overall grit/toughness/muscle is for sure doable.


lidsretire2.jpg
 

Thank you so much perfect human being #5

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

Phase I: injury rattled roster Phase II: BABCOCK Phase III: Playoffs XXIII !


#56 Dabura

Dabura

    Cake Eater

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,057 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:32 AM

Look I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just trying to avoid another "Suter/Parise" situation. Players that really could help this team just aren't available I know it sucks and we are not used to it, but that is the sad reality. The point I'm trying to make is, why not have some "fun" during the rebuild/tool years and add tough guys?

 

See, I don't really buy that there's absolutely nothing we can do aside from adding tough guys.

 

There seems to be this weird notion spreading in hockey forums that a lack of obvious possibilities means nothing can happen. There's always a deal to be made. Theoretically, any player can be had at any time, for the right price. Just because Darren Dreger isn't saying, "Certainly this is a possibility," doesn't mean there's nothing there. It just means Holland might have to get creative and maybe step out of his ultra-plush comfort zone and bend or break a golden, sacred rule of his to get the job done. I mean, had we not traded for Shanahan, people today would look back and say, "So, you think we should've traded for a premier power-forward? Give me a list of premier power-forwards who were available at the time and could've been had for a reasonable price. Shanahan? Are you serious?"

 

As for fun...I'd rather be winning with slightly soft hockey than losing with extra-tough hockey.

 

My big thing - and I realize I'm really beating a dead horse here - is that we only have so much time left with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and "so much" isn't so much. We've already wasted how many years of their careers, and now we're going to bring back the '80s? I want to see us go all in (within reason) for one more run at the Cup. Easier said than done, I know. But I just feel like adding tough guys for the fun factor is sort of throwing in the towel on the quest for that one last Cup. Add those guys with whatever spare change and parts we have left over after having snagged a big-name player or two. Unless there really is absolutely nothing else we can do, and adding tough guys (over, say, a Griffin, or two, or three) is something that's really going to help us.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#57 Dabura

Dabura

    Cake Eater

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,057 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:50 AM

Sorry, frank, I guess that was maybe a little overly negative. I think we're both on pretty much the same page. I just think tough guys should be "the final touch" on top of a roster that really has its act together. And I don't think a roster that really has its act together is necessarily unattainable, even if we keep striking out in free agency.

 

I'll add more in a little bit.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#58 Nev

Nev

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,971 posts
  • Location:Lincolnshire, England

Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:15 PM

So, you think we should've traded for a premier power-forward? Give me a list of premier power-forwards who were available at the time and could've been had for a reasonable price. Shanahan? Are you serious?"

 

To be fair it was well known that Shanny wanted out of Hartford.  I can still remember a fan in the stands wearing a Shanahan jersey and a giant diaper in protest at his attitude.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#59 pucktividi

pucktividi

    the usual suspect

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,273 posts
  • Location:Croatia

Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:17 PM

I dont think we lack muscle, I think we lack heart/fire. After hitting Dats or Abby like that a guy like McCarty would have gone bezerk. Not saying that puts points on the board but I do think it really brings the team together and says hey lets beat these MOTHER *******

Hey,but heart is still a muscle :lol:



#60 beachwing

beachwing

    Reader

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,217 posts
  • Location:Destin

Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:19 PM

I just feel that certain things call for a response of some type.

Malkin intigating against Z, Weber smash Z, Dats gets an elbow, assholes going after Nyquist, and always mauling our goalies.

And there is nobody on the bench to stand up for them. Or who is WILLING to!!!

Goons and tough guys dont deter or scare anyone BUT they hold people accountable.

I hate Boston but they are a team who sticks up for each other. If you do some dumbahit against them you immediatly are looking around cuz you know the entire brigade is coming at you.



This entire video is such a wonderful thing to watch. Probert throwing warning shots at people then that sugar sweet sucker punch to Maguire while he's alread down on the ice.

Thats all I want. Do this when someobody f***s with your stars your teammates.





Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users