Would you trade Jimmy for a top pairing dman?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

No ones trading a top dman these days ..... We just got to toughen it out for now fortunately we got backman ouellet sproul almquist marchenko coming up so future looks bright

Allf four of them are still way to unproven in order to hype them up as coming top pairing guys. The best we can hope, is that their games transformes well to the NHL and that at least one of them is going to become a future much needed stud.

[Aznknight 139]

No

[e_prime 1,936]

Wait, I need you to clarify something; do you mean Nyquist + a goalie for just one of those three, or a combination?

I guess I should have clarified a little more as this question was really directed at LeftWinger, as he seemingly does not want to move a goalie prospect, but then I realized that he is seemingly willing to part with Howard. So...

If it's Howard we're trading to Winnipeg, there's no way that I'm including Nyquist and I want Wheeler and Bogosian. Not that this trade would ever get off the ground, but they are desperate for goaltending, and I really think that trading Jimmy is a disservice to this team.

Trading a prospect is not like trading your number one goaltender, but I still would want a combination of players and picks if I'm trading Nyquist + Mrazek. While I don't think that Patterson+Nyquist alone could net a combination of those players, if you add in Kindl, Andersson, and expiring contracts, you may get a combo deal.

Winnipeg is a mess and they need to blow that team up, but I still think they'll only part with maybe two of those core players. Buff from the defensive side, and Wheeler or Kane from the offensive side -- if it's a true hockey trade. ...and Pavelec may be headed to buy out city.

EDIT: For clarification

Edited January 13, 2014 by e_prime

[themcityblues 249]

To answer the OP -- yes, yes I would.

[kipwinger 8,522]

I guess I should have clarified a little more as this question was really directed at LeftWinger, as he seemingly does not want to move a goalie prospect, but then I realized that he is seemingly willing to part with Howard. So...

If it's Howard we're trading to Winnipeg, there's no way that I'm including Nyquist and I want Wheeler and Bogosian.

They are desperate for goaltending, and I really think that trading Jimmy is a disservice to this team.

Trading a prospect is not like trading your number one goaltender, but I still would want a combination of players and picks if I'm trading Nyquist + Mrazek. While I don't think that Patterson+Nyquist alone could net a combination of those players, if you add in Kindl, Andersson, and expiring contracts, you may get a combo deal.

Winnipeg is a mess and they need to blow that team up, but I still think they'll only part with maybe two of those core players (Buff + Kane or Wheeler.) ...and Pavelec may be headed to buy out city.

Oh ok, gotcha. I agree though, if I'm trading Jimmy+Nyquist, then I need two studs. If I'm trading Nyquist+Mrazek then I need less, but still nothing shabby.

[e_prime 1,936]

Oh ok, gotcha. I agree though, if I'm trading Jimmy+Nyquist, then I need two studs. If I'm trading Nyquist+Mrazek then I need less, but still nothing shabby.

Winnipeg does expect players of equal value as far as age and talent goes in return for any core players they may trade away, and I'll say it again... I think they give Maurice some time with that core before they make any moves.

Still, I *do* find it interesting that even after a change in locale, GM, and several coaches... they are still clinging to many of the same pieces they've had place since their days in Atlanta. I think Cheveldayoff needs to make at least one or two moves if he plans on remaining the Jets GM.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Winnipeg does expect players of equal value as far as age and talent goes in return for any core players they may trade away, and I'll say it again... I think they give Maurice some time with that core before they make any moves.

Still, I *do* find it interesting that even after a change in locale, GM, and several coaches... they are still clinging to many of the same pieces they've had place since their days in Atlanta. I think Cheveldayoff needs to make at least one or two moves if he plans on remaining the Jets GM.

I think he'll get until the deadline, and then if things aren't going well they'll start with their lower value pieces and see if they can get a big return out of that before considering anything else. I'd imagine Setoguchi, Byfuglien, and Kane would be the first three to get moved (in that order). Unless, that is, they get an offer they can't refuse.

[rrasco 1,312]

I wouldn't mind Kane (Evander), here.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

In regards to the original question...No. Howards our guy.

Mrazek and Gus do well in limited action but I wouldn't trust either to carry the load over the course of a season or playoffs.

Not to mention, the market couldn't be worse for someone trying to sell a goalie. Too many on the market. Not enough teams in need(admit they're in need).

[Guest Playmaker]

Hate to put a damper on things and be a broken record, but Jimmy has a No Movement clause. He signed it less than a year ago and has a pregnant wife. I'm not thinking he's going to agree to waive it anytime soon. So talk of trading Howard is kind of pointless.

[Dabura 12,207]

I was thinking small and injury prone. But sure.

I want size and physicality. No thanks on Karlsson for sure and Subban is overrated. We already have Kronwall and Smith to be small and "offensive minded." I want DeK to run the PP in the future, Kindl to bring some more snarl (along with Smith if he is on the team) and Marchenko to be a big, skilled guy (kinda like Ericsson but better). We need a 6'4" 220lb+ guy back there smashing guys into the boards and clearing the crease. The only person who remotely fills that void on the current roster is Ericsson, and he is bad at it.

Weber for size, skill, and physicality. Doughty for skill and aggression. Boychuk now that I think about it isn't a good fit, but McQuaid is.

Size and physicality? Those are the two problems you single (or, uh, double) out?

[Dabura 12,207]

I should elaborate. Ericsson is a very big (6'4, 220) mobile shutdown defenseman. He's not especially physical, but he has his moments (smashing Bickell into the boards, dropping the gloves on occasion). DeKeyser is a big (6'3, 190) mobile shutdown defenseman, with a lot of room for filling out. Lashoff is a big (6'3, 210) crease-clearing defensive defenseman with a nice little mean streak in him that should grow with time. Smith is a pretty big (6'2, 200) puck-moving offensive defenseman who likes to hit and isn't too afraid to fight. Kindl is a big (6'3, 215) offensive-minded defenseman. Unfortunately, he's the least physical player in the NHL. Kronwall isn't big, but he's no cream puff. A gritty aggressive offensive defenseman. Marchenko is pretty big (6'2, 210) and projects as an aggressive shutdown defenseman. Quincey is

Granted, we have Almqvist waiting in the Wings (see what I did there?), and Sproul isn't far behind him. And Smith has a lot of upside. And Kindl might one day come out of his shell. And Kronwall is, of course, a big point-producer. But, well, I'll turn it over to Kevin Weekes:

I think the biggest challenge for the Red Wings is that they don't have a Drew Doughty or a P.K. Subban or Oliver Ekman-Larson on their blue line. I think Niklas Kronwall is a heck of a player and Jonathan Ericsson is a nice player. Danny DeKeyser has also been really impressive but he's hurt again. They just don't have one of those game-changers. Without having that, it's pretty difficult to make plays and help get the puck out of your zone and get the puck out of trouble. Detroit doesn't have one of those guys right now.

Of course, they had one of the game's all-time greats in Nicklas Lidstrom. They haven't filled that hole since he retired in 2012. Obviously, Nicklas Lidstroms don't come along every day. But at the same time, look at the L.A. Kings. They had Drew Doughty and Jack Johnson and they were able to trade Johnson because they had Slava Voynov. That's a lot of good D.

When you look at a lot of the top teams, including the Boston Bruins, quite often they have one, if not two or three, of those guys on the back end. Detroit has some room to improve in that area.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=23229

Edited January 14, 2014 by Dabura

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I should elaborate: Ericsson is a very big (6'4, 220) mobile shutdown defenseman. He's not especially physical, but he has his moments (smashing Bickell into the boards, dropping the gloves on occasion). DeKeyser is a big (6'3, 190) mobile shutdown defenseman, with a lot of room for filling out. Lashoff is a big (6'3, 210) crease-clearing defensive defenseman with a nice little mean streak in him that should grow with time. Smith is a pretty big (6'2, 200) puck-moving offensive defenseman who likes to hit and isn't too afraid to fight. Kindl is a big (6'3, 215) offensive-minded defenseman. Unfortunately, he's the least physical player in the NHL. Kronwall isn't big, but he's no cream puff. A gritty aggressive offensive defenseman. Marchenko is pretty big (6'2, 210) and projects as an aggressive shutdown defenseman. Quincey is

Granted, we have Almqvist waiting in the Wings (see what I there?), and Sproul isn't far behind him. And Smith has a lot of upside. And Kindl might one day come out of his shell. And Kronwall is, of course, a big point-producer. But, well, I'll turn it over to Kevin Weekes:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=23229

I agree with most of what you said. Definitely in need of a defencemen with a dynamic skillset.

Where did you get the info regarding Marchenko? My understanding from what I've seen and heard is he's closer to 180 than 210lbs and not very physical at all. Smart and safe for sure. Great passer and puck-mover.

edit. I now see the Red Wings site lists him as 212. Not sure how he could have started the season with the Griffins at 180 and now is listed at 212. Somethings off....

Edited January 14, 2014 by Son of a Wing

[Dabura 12,207]

I agree with most of what you said. Definitely in need of a defencemen with a dynamic skillset.

Where did you get the info regarding Marchenko? My understanding from what I've seen and heard is he's closer to 180 than 210lbs and not very physical at all. Smart and safe for sure. Great passer and puck-mover.

edit. I now see the Red Wings site lists him as 212. Not sure how he could have started the season with the Griffins at 180 and now is listed at 212. Somethings off....

Can't quite remember where I got his weight from. Probably Wikipedia.

The discrepancy is odd, but it's probably just human error. Though, FWIW, I once gained about 30lbs over the span of a few months. It's unlikely he gained 30, but it's not out of the question.

As for the projection...I totally swiped it from Hockey's Future to help me make my point. But I've seen him play (beyond his recent Wings debut), and I have a Russian friend who's told me a lot about him (or at least the player that he was back in Russia), and my overall impression is that he could become a dynamic shutdown guy.

[Ekmanc 586]

The discrepancy is odd, but it's probably just human error. Though, FWIW, I once gained about 30lbs over the span of a few months. It's unlikely he gained 30, but it's not out of the question.

Gaining 30lbs in a few months isn't difficult at all, gaining 30lbs of which most is muscle mass in a few months is physically impossibile. Even if he did nothing other than heavy weight lifting 30lbs would take him 5+years to gain.

[LeftWinger 4,953]

to answer the OP question, yes if Weber, Suter, et al were available, I would trade Howard for one of those guys.

I think though, if there is going to be a deal, it will be for someone like Yandle or Erhoff or Edler et al. Like someone said earlier, a #2-#4 defenseman seems more likely of a deal since after Deke, Kronner and to an extent Big E, the talent level drops dramatically on our roster. Q and K are hot garbage and Lashoff is a serviceable bottom pairing guy. If not a Suter or Weber to take over the #1 spot, then we need that solid top 4 guy to make our D formidable. Preferably a Right Handed shot to man the point on the powerplay as well. I think the Wings should go out of their way to stock up on right handed shots on D the next few years to alleviate this problem...now that I look, they do have Sproul, Marchenko and Jensen in their top 25 prospects that shoot right handed...Nicastro is also, but at 23 he still cannot crack the GR lineup, I think unless he pulls out a surprise, he may slide even further down the charts, he is an RFA this July with 1 more year of waiver exemptions...Mitchell Wheaton is an interesting one though, at 18 years old he is 6'4" 230lb. Right Handed shot that is still in the WHL and hasn't signed a pro contract yet. He is a monster, but according to scouts needs to learn to use his frame accordingly.

Ryan Sproul

Alexey Marchenko

Nick Jensen

Mitchell Wheaton

Max Nicastro

...all right handed D men. Looks a little better than I thought to begin with for the future. I would LOVE to tear Steve Santini away from New Jersey somehow...

[RedWang 422]

Gaining 30lbs in a few months isn't difficult at all, gaining 30lbs of which most is muscle mass in a few months is physically impossibile. Even if he did nothing other than heavy weight lifting 30lbs would take him 5+years to gain.

30 lbs of mostly muscle at his age (metabolism slowing/frame filling out) is not really that difficult a feat to accomplish. To a professional athelete, with top notch training/nutrition/time its totally achievable in a year with heavy lifting/adequate caloric intake. Just throwing that out there.

But also the weight stats on some of these guys are flawed. Ive met both Tomas tatar and Gustav nyquist (Im 5'11 170lbs, 10% bf) and those guys are quite a bit smller than me face to face; although they are both listed as higher weights.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

I should elaborate. Ericsson is a very big (6'4, 220) mobile shutdown defenseman. He's not especially physical, but he has his moments (smashing Bickell into the boards, dropping the gloves on occasion). DeKeyser is a big (6'3, 190) mobile shutdown defenseman, with a lot of room for filling out. Lashoff is a big (6'3, 210) crease-clearing defensive defenseman with a nice little mean streak in him that should grow with time. Smith is a pretty big (6'2, 200) puck-moving offensive defenseman who likes to hit and isn't too afraid to fight. Kindl is a big (6'3, 215) offensive-minded defenseman. Unfortunately, he's the least physical player in the NHL. Kronwall isn't big, but he's no cream puff. A gritty aggressive offensive defenseman. Marchenko is pretty big (6'2, 210) and projects as an aggressive shutdown defenseman. Quincey is

Granted, we have Almqvist waiting in the Wings (see what I did there?), and Sproul isn't far behind him. And Smith has a lot of upside. And Kindl might one day come out of his shell. And Kronwall is, of course, a big point-producer. But, well, I'll turn it over to Kevin Weekes:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=23229

Dude....you forgot to mention Ouellet. Other than that bang on with the post. And Kevin Weeks don't know s***!

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Stick to the topic please.

If you don't like the thread, then simply don't participate.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

30 lbs of mostly muscle at his age (metabolism slowing/frame filling out) is not really that difficult a feat to accomplish. To a professional athelete, with top notch training/nutrition/time its totally achievable in a year with heavy lifting/adequate caloric intake. Just throwing that out there.

But also the weight stats on some of these guys are flawed. Ive met both Tomas tatar and Gustav nyquist (Im 5'11 170lbs, 10% bf) and those guys are quite a bit smller than me face to face; although they are both listed as higher weights.

Depends on the athlete/sport. When they're doing the amount of aerobic and anaerobic exercises they do. It is very difficult.

However a young adult male can definitely put on 30lbs of muscle over the course of a year with strict nutrition and training.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Depends on the athlete/sport. When they're doing the amount of aerobic and anaerobic exercises they do. It is very difficult.

However a young adult male can definitely put on 30lbs of muscle over the course of a year with strict nutrition and training.

When I joined the Army, I gained 30 lbs in 4 months during basic training. I was 18 at the time and never ate balanced meals or more than about twice a day prior to enlisting. Once my calorie intake went up, along with the workouts, my weight skyrocketed. And that was almost entirely aerobic exercises (plus some push-ups, sit-ups, etc.). No weight lifting involved.

So I guess I'm saying I agree with you, and that it might not even take as long as you'd imagine.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

When I joined the Army, I gained 30 lbs in 4 months during basic training. I was 18 at the time and never ate balanced meals or more than about twice a day prior to enlisting. Once my calorie intake went up, along with the workouts, my weight skyrocketed. And that was almost entirely aerobic exercises (plus some push-ups, sit-ups, etc.). No weight lifting involved.

So I guess I'm saying I agree with you, and that it might not even take as long as you'd imagine.

You hit the nail on the head in terms of caloric intake and being 18. Playing college football I've seen players put on ridiculous amount of muscle in the span of a few months.

Muscle/size doesn't always equate directly to strength though. Regardless in terms of Marchenko, I'm sure he's got a solid frame by now.

[kipwinger 8,522]

You hit the nail on the head in terms of caloric intake and being 18. Playing college football I've seen players put on ridiculous amount of muscle in the span of a few months.

Muscle/size doesn't always equate directly to strength though. Regardless in terms of Marchenko, I'm sure he's got a solid frame by now.

It's really hard to say what his training was like in Russia too. I mean, I'm not suggesting that they're not in good shape in the KHL. But it's hard to believe that they can match North American pro-level facilities, doctors/trainers, nutritional experts, etc. That alone could well explain the difference.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

It's really hard to say what his training was like in Russia too. I mean, I'm not suggesting that they're not in good shape in the KHL. But it's hard to believe that they can match North American pro-level facilities, doctors/trainers, nutritional experts, etc. That alone could well explain the difference.

Funny you mention that. Was watching Paul Maurice's press conference with Winnipeg and he was talking about how much he learned while coaching in Russia.

One of the main points he made was how different the diet and general eating habits are. As in completely different.

So I think you have a good point there.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Funny you mention that. Was watching Paul Maurice's press conference with Winnipeg and he was talking about how much he learned while coaching in Russia.

One of the main points he made was how different the diet and general eating habits are. As in completely different.

So I think you have a good point there.

Is there a link for that, I'd definitely like to see it?