Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Perspective?


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#41 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,817 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 17 January 2014 - 11:55 PM

Nobody saw them competing with the Blackhawks last season either.  But we managed to take them to OT in game 7.  Didn't the Wings have to win their last 4 last season just to get in?  Weren't there just as many injuries playing the little wimpy Western Conference?  Trade Jimmy Howard?  That No Movement Clause may put a damper on that.  Most teams are at or near the salary cap.  A majority of the roster has a NTC or NMC, so making trades isn't an easy proposition.  I can't think of another team that has so many starters out of the lineup.  If the Wings were relatively healthy and were in the same position, it'd be a bit more disconcerting.  But as someone else mentioned, with the salary cap and lack of high draft picks over the past 2 decades, a decline was inevitable.  It would be nice if they were Championship contenders every year, but no team is in any sport is.  It's not to say that I've agreed with every move Holland has made, but the Wings have been so good for so long, the fans have become spoiled.  I don't want to see it all end either, but its going to happen sooner or later.


I agree, the playoffs are a crapshoot the most important thing is to get in, cause once you're there anything can happen.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#42 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,737 posts

Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:17 AM


Don't see the Wings beating Boston or Pittsburgh in a 7 game series...healthy or not


Nobody saw them competing with the Blackhawks last season either.  But we managed to take them to OT in game 7.  Didn't the Wings have to win their last 4 last season just to get in?  Weren't there just as many injuries playing the little wimpy Western Conference?  Trade Jimmy Howard?  That No Movement Clause may put a damper on that.  Most teams are at or near the salary cap.  A majority of the roster has a NTC or NMC, so making trades isn't an easy proposition.  I can't think of another team that has so many starters out of the lineup.  If the Wings were relatively healthy and were in the same position, it'd be a bit more disconcerting.  But as someone else mentioned, with the. I cap and lack of high draft picks over the past 2 decades, a de,cline ws inevitable.  It would be nice if they were Championship contenders every year, but no team is in any sport is.  It's not to say that I've agreed with every move Holland has made, but the Wings have been so good for so long, the fans have become spoiled.  I don't want to see it all end either, but its going to happen sooner or later.


I'm starting to think this series really gave people more importantly Holland a false impression on where this team is headed in the future but I'll bite. The Hawks simple underestimated the team and thought it would be easy. After they've found another gear the team was simply overmatched in a lot of areas.

Like I said when the Wings were healthy and didn't score it was they need to find chemistry, new conference and all that stuff. It doesn't matter, if we as fans are giving them time or boot, other teams are winning so time to catch up is running out. The sad part is, watching this team is boring, they are pushed around way too easily, safe for Kronner from time to time no big hits or playing with an edge..

Also having Pasha or Z out should have given people a good idea on what's ahead, if Holland doesn't react.

Maybe missing the playoffs would be the best thing longtermwise, get a better draftpick and start the rebuild in the McDavid year, not a bad year to start. With gems like Tatar, Nyquist and Danny already in place it shouldn't be as painful as other ones. So yeah fairly lengthy but I'm worried about the future and Holland has to share a ton of the blame for not using the wealth this franchise has, this team used to get a player if they wanted him!

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#43 Hey man nice shot!

Hey man nice shot!

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 420 posts
  • Location:St.johns MI

Posted 18 January 2014 - 06:45 AM

I'm starting to think this series really gave people more importantly Holland a false impression on where this team is headed in the future but I'll bite. The Hawks simple underestimated the team and thought it would be easy. After they've found another gear the team was simply overmatched in a lot of areas. Like I said when the Wings were healthy and didn't score it was they need to find chemistry, new conference and all that stuff. It doesn't matter, if we as fans are giving them time or boot, other teams are winning so time to catch up is running out. The sad part is, watching this team is boring, they are pushed around way too easily, safe for Kronner from time to time no big hits or playing with an edge.. Also having Pasha or Z out should have given people a good idea on what's ahead, if Holland doesn't react. Maybe missing the playoffs would be the best thing longtermwise, get a better draftpick and start the rebuild in the McDavid year, not a bad year to start. With gems like Tatar, Nyquist and Danny already in place it shouldn't be as painful as other ones. So yeah fairly lengthy but I'm worried about the future and Holland has to share a ton of the blame for not using the wealth this franchise has, this team used to get a player if they wanted h

/agree



#44 Playmaker

Playmaker

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,180 posts

Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:40 AM

I'm starting to think this series really gave people more importantly Holland a false impression on where this team is headed in the future but I'll bite. The Hawks simple underestimated the team and thought it would be easy. After they've found another gear the team was simply overmatched in a lot of areas. Like I said when the Wings were healthy and didn't score it was they need to find chemistry, new conference and all that stuff. It doesn't matter, if we as fans are giving them time or boot, other teams are winning so time to catch up is running out. The sad part is, watching this team is boring, they are pushed around way too easily, safe for Kronner from time to time no big hits or playing with an edge.. Also having Pasha or Z out should have given people a good idea on what's ahead, if Holland doesn't react. Maybe missing the playoffs would be the best thing longtermwise, get a better draftpick and start the rebuild in the McDavid year, not a bad year to start. With gems like Tatar, Nyquist and Danny already in place it shouldn't be as painful as other ones. So yeah fairly lengthy but I'm worried about the future and Holland has to share a ton of the blame for not using the wealth this franchise has, this team used to get a player if they wanted him!

This isn't 2002.  The Wings got players they wanted because they paid the most.  The salary cap took care of that.  They stayed competitive after that due to their elite scouting in Europe, finding later round superstars like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen.  Then other teams caught on.  The restrictions on free agency and the penalties put on teams who signed players to long contracts makes things even more difficult.  Most of the teams that are now "elite" all went through extended periods of being non playoff teams and got high draft picks.   Sometimes you can get lucky with a trade here or there, but for the most part, the core of the team has to be built through the draft. That's how Jimmy D built the Wings in the first place.  I would love it if the Wings were Cup contenders every year, but that isn't going to happen.  



#45 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,737 posts

Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:13 AM

This isn't 2002.  The Wings got players they wanted because they paid the most.  The salary cap took care of that.  They stayed competitive after that due to their elite scouting in Europe, finding later round superstars like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen.  Then other teams caught on.  The restrictions on free agency and the penalties put on teams who signed players to long contracts makes things even more difficult.  Most of the teams that are now "elite" all went through extended periods of being non playoff teams and got high draft picks.   Sometimes you can get lucky with a trade here or there, but for the most part, the core of the team has to be built through the draft. That's how Jimmy D built the Wings in the first place.  I would love it if the Wings were Cup contenders every year, but that isn't going to happen.  

 

See now we are on the same page :)

 

Once a team is starting to fall behind, it's time to rebuild because the stupid CBA doesn't allow teams to use their own money. I'm not saying blow it all up but I'm obviously very concerned if they aren't going to start the rebuild next year, this team might be looking at a Calgary Flames like situations :(

 

Personally I just don't see a point in barely making the playoffs and going out in the first or second round and not getting a better draft pick (thanks god we've lucked out with Mantha).


Edited by frankgrimes, 18 January 2014 - 11:15 AM.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#46 Playmaker

Playmaker

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,180 posts

Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:41 PM

I agree, I don't want to suck for a few decades either.  I think Holland is trying to keep the ship afloat and rebuild on the fly.  But I think its a lot easier said than done.  The salary cap blows when you have an owner with an open check book.  I really hate too the penalties that they instituted on these long term deals after the fact.  

 

I don't think the Wings are any where near being a cup favorite.  But if the team were totally healthy and guys like Franzen and Alfie and Helm are playing well, I think the Wings could surprise some teams in the early rounds.  But that's a big if.  



#47 Son of a Wing

Son of a Wing

    London Lions Captain

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,716 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario

Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:58 PM

 

See now we are on the same page :)

 

Once a team is starting to fall behind, it's time to rebuild because the stupid CBA doesn't allow teams to use their own money. I'm not saying blow it all up but I'm obviously very concerned if they aren't going to start the rebuild next year, this team might be looking at a Calgary Flames like situations :(

 

Personally I just don't see a point in barely making the playoffs and going out in the first or second round and not getting a better draft pick (thanks god we've lucked out with Mantha).

 

So basically you don't see the point in making the playoffs unless your favorite to win?? 


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#48 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,366 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 18 January 2014 - 02:58 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson

Tatar-Helm-Nyquist

Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader

 

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abdelkader

Tatar-Andersson-Bertuzzi

Miller-Sheahan-Eaves

Cleary-Glendening-Samuelsson

 

The first group is what they were expecting to have on at least a semi-regular basis.  That roster easily makes the playoffs.

 

The second group is about what they've been forced to play with recently.  That roster could compete for the top overall pick.

 

That's why they've been losing.  It's not because Tatar was scratched for 8 games early in the season.  it's not because Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi aren't pulling their weight.  It's because virtually every forward who's any good at all, other than Nyquist and Tatar, have missed over 20% of the season.  Miller Andersson, and Cleary are the only forwards who have played at least 90% of the possible games.  I don't care if your coaching staff is Scotty Bowman, Toe Blake and Al Arbour, this roster isn't going to score enough to win consistently until they get some players back.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#49 Andy Pred 48

Andy Pred 48

    Coming soon,"the slovak line" Marek and 2 Toms!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,862 posts
  • Location:Peterborough England

Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:15 PM

actually it would make a lot  of sense, if Weiss plays upto his 2nd line C role. Z can look after the 1st line giving us a potential scoring 3rd line that no other team could match up against without splitting up their lines. Pav would still be able to play on the PP. Pav is 36 this year and we need to make sure we look after him and not burn him out by overplay. Already this year he has been out more games than we are use to. Having him in full swing for 16-19 mins a game would be of more benefit to the Wings than losing him for 6-8 games a couple of times a year by overplaying him.


"What are you guys doing?" Reggie Dunlop
"Putting on the foil coach" Jeff Hanson
"Yeah, every game, you want some coach?" Steve Hanson
"Er, no. No thanks guys." Reggie Dunlop
"Make sure they don't leave the bench!" Reggie Dunlop.

#50 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,737 posts

Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:46 AM

 

So basically you don't see the point in making the playoffs unless your favorite to win?? 

 

Did I say that ? It totally depends on the team, if you have a young, hungry team on the cusp of breaking out for sure making the playoffs is a tremendous step forward and at that point you can easily salvage a better draft pick. If you are an aging team, soon needing to replace one superstar things are a bit different, right now most of the vets on this team have at least won 1 stanley cup and the young players mostly have around 15 ! years left to win one, plenty of time here.

 

Given we are right now the later I would say atm a better draft pick is more important than just making the playoffs.


kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#51 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,366 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:57 AM

There isn't a huge difference in quality of player you're probably getting from barely in the playoffs to just out of the playoffs historically.  Unless you're going to be in the top 10 in the draft, you might as well make the playoffs, get the younger guys you have some experience there and make the extra revenue.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#52 lomekian

lomekian

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 457 posts
  • Location:London - England (not Ontario)

Posted 20 January 2014 - 10:40 AM

I'm encouraged by and enjoying the debate on this thread, which for a while looked like it might just turn into the mindlessly negative few repeating the same anti-Holland, anti-Babcock, anti-veteran mantras. 

 

Agree that the crunch of the impact of the salary cap era is finally catching up, and that we may not be far from a re-build, but I don't think we are there yet. The problem we have is that even if we attempted to venture into firesale mode, the only pieces that would worth a lot in terms of rebuild assets are the ones we don't want to lose. 

 

Perhaps Mrazek might make Howard expendable, but really, how much would this team get in terms of prospects or picks for anyone not named Kronwall, Zetterburg, Dats or Dekeyser? Sure Ericsson would have some value but he's JUST re-signed and is the kind of Dman our roster and prospect pool is too short of. Franzen's value is the lowest it has been and being out with concussion doesn't help. Helm won't garner much while there are still question marks over fitness, and a fit helm is more valuable to us than most other teams out there. I'd be loathe to lose Tatar or Nyquist unless we get something great in return, as not only would be vital for a re-build in the short term, but also with the kids we have on the farm mostly having decent size, we can actually afford to dress some skilled small guys going forwards. 

 

I also think that unless we really burn it down, this team will still be too good to finish low enough to get a top pick....maybe in really deep draft year it wouldn't matter, but this year ain't judging by scouting, and next is uncertain. Our core and our coaching are too good and too proud to completely bomb.

 

I think despite the difficulty of re-tooling, the composition of our roster and prospect pool actually makes it easier to spend the next couple years on the bubble and then improve than it would be to bomb and re-build. I feel if we go down the fire sale route, it may take longer to come back. That said, much depends on things that will become much clearer by the middle of next season.

 

Can Z & D stay healthy and motivated?

Can helm get fit and stay fit?

Can Mule get fit enough to continue to frustrate but still justify his salary? He drives us mad, but when he's hot he wins games in bunches.

Can Weiss at least contribute decent two-way play when fit?

Can Smith continue his recent up-turn in play?

Has Howie settled down now?

Will Alfie want to return?

Will Mantha continue his amazing trajectory?

Can 2 of Marchenko, Almquist, Ferraro, Sheahan, Callahan or Jurco show that they are ready for regular NHL duty on the lines they are projected for next year?

 

If its yes to them all, we find ourselves backing Holland keeping on this path.

 

If its yes to more than it is no, then we'll continue to be a playoff team but will need to become a little more adventurous in the trade market.

 

If its no to considerably more than it is yes then its time bring the petrol and firelighters. 

 

This season is too early to judge, not just because of the injuries meaning we have barely seen an approximation of a full roster, but also because New Conference, influx of kids or couple of FAs and probably most importantly, most of the deadwood can be got rid of this summer, giving us far more flexibility. If we lose Sammy, Quincey, Cleary, Eaves & Bert and any of those on the farm out of waiver options can cement a place on the big team, we suddenly have 7-10m to spend on 1 or 2 FAs even after RFA signings and bringing back Alfie. If the latter leaves we have 10-13m for 2 or 3 slots, with the core of the team still in place.

 

Just looking at the new CBA, our contract commitments (some due to mistakes by Holland), and the timing of our successful draft picks coming to fruition, this was always going to be the worst year for the Red Wings out of the last 20+ . If most of my above questions can be answered in the affirmative this time nest year, the wings will be in a really strong position. 

 

This season will continue to be painful, and the playoff streak might end...but this summer we will be in a position to re-invigorate the roster with youth and better quality FAs (even if it does mean overpaying slightly), and Detroit will still be an attractive destination while the main men are here, particularly as everyone can see the farm starting to produce going forwards.



#53 Son of a Wing

Son of a Wing

    London Lions Captain

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,716 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:20 PM

 

Did I say that ? It totally depends on the team, if you have a young, hungry team on the cusp of breaking out for sure making the playoffs is a tremendous step forward and at that point you can easily salvage a better draft pick. If you are an aging team, soon needing to replace one superstar things are a bit different, right now most of the vets on this team have at least won 1 stanley cup and the young players mostly have around 15 ! years left to win one, plenty of time here.

 

Given we are right now the later I would say atm a better draft pick is more important than just making the playoffs.

 

Yes you did. You said unless they're making it to the 3rd round of the playoffs it's a waste of time and we'd be better off with a higher draft pick. That would be a top 4 team which constitutes being a favorite.

 

How is it in our best interest to lose the playoff streak, tank in a weak draft year, and miss the playoffs and all the experience that comes with it for our younger guys? All for a spot a few picks higher.

 

I'm sorry but it's spoiled Red Wing fan s*** like this really pisses me off.  Try having that argument with a fan of any other team.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#54 PumpkinEscobar

PumpkinEscobar

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 458 posts

Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:39 PM

High draft picks aren't what this team needs

#55 Jericho613

Jericho613

    Give Nothing, Take Everything

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 20 January 2014 - 07:20 PM

Im usually the rah rah guy when it comes to the Wings. I don't panic for some reason. But I will say this, Holland needs to change his approach to building teams. Its now about younger bigger players, not old seasoned vets anymore. Its a young players league. Im actually hoping the Wings miss the playoffs so that Holland will finally open his eyes. This roster is just not gonna get it done, I hate saying that, but our postseason streak is gonna have to come to an end so that we can wake up and build a roster for this new NHL.Holland is stuck in his ways from the past golden years of the Wings. This new NHL isn't the same as when Yzerman and company played. Now you gotta be younger and more physical, skill is not enough. Dats, Z, Tats, Gus, DK, Kronwall, and Helm and Howard I can see keeping obviously, but everyone else is expendable. If we get to the trade deadline and we are out of the race by a big margin, blow it up and trade some guys if we can get anything for them.



#56 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,366 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 20 January 2014 - 08:00 PM

Im usually the rah rah guy when it comes to the Wings. I don't panic for some reason. But I will say this, Holland needs to change his approach to building teams. Its now about younger bigger players, not old seasoned vets anymore. Its a young players league. Im actually hoping the Wings miss the playoffs so that Holland will finally open his eyes. This roster is just not gonna get it done, I hate saying that, but our postseason streak is gonna have to come to an end so that we can wake up and build a roster for this new NHL.Holland is stuck in his ways from the past golden years of the Wings. This new NHL isn't the same as when Yzerman and company played. Now you gotta be younger and more physical, skill is not enough. Dats, Z, Tats, Gus, DK, Kronwall, and Helm and Howard I can see keeping obviously, but everyone else is expendable. If we get to the trade deadline and we are out of the race by a big margin, blow it up and trade some guys if we can get anything for them.

 

Why do you think Holland has refused to trade prospects for the most part?  They had to rebuild the farm system first, though.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#57 jimmyemeryhunter

jimmyemeryhunter

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 898 posts

Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:05 PM

I think they understand that.
Were retooling on the fly, moving from our small skilled players to a bigger roster.
Like jurco.
Skilled as hell.
Still big.
And strong.
and tonight vs Chicago he's throwing it around.
Like dickie said they had to build up the farm, get some size in there and let it gradually work into the line up.





Similar Topics Collapse

  Topic Forum Started By Stats Last Post Info

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users