Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 5 votes

Trade deadline fast approaching - who should we target?


  • Please log in to reply
1869 replies to this topic

#761 Richdg

Richdg

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,938 posts

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:20 PM

I just don't see why we would make a move now. Our season is crap and going to get worse. Unless we are getting Crosby for Quincey, there isn't a good fit atm. Deadline deals are very expensive. More than off season deals. Why pay the higher prices now, when we need several pieces. better off waiting until summer. let the kids come up and play and see what they can do.



#762 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:25 PM

I just don't see why we would make a move now. Our season is crap and going to get worse. Unless we are getting Crosby for Quincey, there isn't a good fit atm. Deadline deals are very expensive. More than off season deals. Why pay the higher prices now, when we need several pieces. better off waiting until summer. let the kids come up and play and see what they can do.


This was how I felt last year, but then we made the playoffs and took off. So while the chance to make the playoffs hasn't completely evaporated, the brass should do all they can to upgrade the team even though we all know they won't.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#763 martinezsvsu

martinezsvsu

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 451 posts

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:48 PM

sit back and watch the "best coach in the league" bring us to the playoffs.



#764 jimmyemeryhunter

jimmyemeryhunter

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:55 PM

Earnhardt died Feb 18, 2001.  Hasek trade was July 1st, 2001.  but I do agree that I don't expect much in the way of moves from the Wings
 
 

It could've just been a story about why earnhardt died.
I don't follow NASCAR.
At all.

So I wasn't paying attention to the exact story.

#765 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:18 AM

Love Callahan if available, would be a great fit.

Meh, if he's really looking for a deal in the 7yr/$6.5-7M range, I want no part of him.

 

This was how I felt last year, but then we made the playoffs and took off. So while the chance to make the playoffs hasn't completely evaporated, the brass should do all they can to upgrade the team even though we all know they won't.

That depends on what you mean by "do all they can" and "upgrade the team".

 

If you mean upgrade for this year, there's a hell of a lot that could be done that would be incredibly stupid from an organizational standpoint. If you mean upgrading the organization as a whole, upgrading for the future without sacrificing this year or upgrading this year without sacrificing the future (or both), that "all they can" list is likely to be pretty short.

 

Sounds to me like you just want to see something happen so you have some news to get excited about. But easing fan boredom is a poor excuse for making a trade.

 

I just don't see why we would make a move now. Our season is crap and going to get worse. Unless we are getting Crosby for Quincey, there isn't a good fit atm. Deadline deals are very expensive. More than off season deals. Why pay the higher prices now, when we need several pieces. better off waiting until summer. let the kids come up and play and see what they can do.

I would agree (though not necessarily with "crap and going to get worse" part), and it would seem Holland does too. However, not all deadline deals are expensive and/or rentals. Something like the Stuart deal would make sense; a veteran defensive defenseman wouldn't likely cost a lot. Most teams looking for defenseman at the deadline tend to focus on puck-movers.

 

A scorer probably isn't likely, since the demand is usually so high. But there's a lot of teams with little cap space, so who knows.



#766 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 26 February 2014 - 01:51 AM

 

 

That depends on what you mean by "do all they can" and "upgrade the team".

 

If you mean upgrade for this year, there's a hell of a lot that could be done that would be incredibly stupid from an organizational standpoint. If you mean upgrading the organization as a whole, upgrading for the future without sacrificing this year or upgrading this year without sacrificing the future (or both), that "all they can" list is likely to be pretty short.

 

Sounds to me like you just want to see something happen so you have some news to get excited about. But easing fan boredom is a poor excuse for making a trade.

 

 

 

Well let me be a bit more clear. I never advocated mortgaging the future for a quick fix, but let's not kid ourselves whether we're talking about this year, next year or 4 years down the line this team needs to upgrade. IMHO the worst thing an organization can do is over value their prospects, which is something that the Wings organization is prone to do. While it's fun to watch all these young kids play, very few prospects turn into good NHL players and even fewer prospects turn into stars. There is a reason that Holland went out and spent 30 mil on Weiss: there is just no way to build a competitive team with only AHL players. So what happens to all the prospects the WIngs have in Grand Rapids? They can't all play for the Wings. Some will end up stuck in Grand Rapids for far too long overshadowed by overpriced veterans as in Nyquist's case while the team suffers, other will be playing for the WIngs but will spend much less time on the ice which will hinder there development. So while it might hurt to part with younger talent(who we can;t be sure are even going to be any good), it is a necessary part of the business. That being said every team should have their untouchables; a list which should include guys like: Tatar, Nyquist, and several others. They just can't all be labeled untouchable. Kindle had a good season last year, which most likely raised his value on the open market but management overvalued him, held on to him and now he is struggling. Holland believes in his prospects so much that he went out and got Quincey back for a first rounder after just letting him leave because of roster space. 

 

Injuries not withstanding this team was built with far too many holes in it, and to plug those holes trades have to be made. Ever since more and more teams started re-signing their young players before they become free agents; the free agent market has had fewer top players on it and most of them want big bucks. Even mediocre players are cleaning up. With the Salary cap, free agency has become a terrible place to rebuild a team. As much as we would all love to keep our young prospects for the fear of them becoming good players somewhere else it's just not plausible. So I beliveve that there is nothing wrong with trading a few younger players along with draft picks to help improve a team, you just have to be smart about the trade you make. Quincey for a first rounder equals bad trade, but finding a way to get a guy like Vanek or Girardi for example and having exclusive negotiating rights with them, will help the team now and in the future.   


"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#767 Shaman

Shaman

    Die hard Red Wing fan and realist.

  • Silver Booster
  • 3,841 posts
  • Location:Kalamazoo Michigan (WMU)

Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:30 AM

 

Well let me be a bit more clear. I never advocated mortgaging the future for a quick fix, but let's not kid ourselves whether we're talking about this year, next year or 4 years down the line this team needs to upgrade. IMHO the worst thing an organization can do is over value their prospects, which is something that the Wings organization is prone to do. While it's fun to watch all these young kids play, very few prospects turn into good NHL players and even fewer prospects turn into stars. There is a reason that Holland went out and spent 30 mil on Weiss: there is just no way to build a competitive team with only AHL players. So what happens to all the prospects the WIngs have in Grand Rapids? They can't all play for the Wings. Some will end up stuck in Grand Rapids for far too long overshadowed by overpriced veterans as in Nyquist's case while the team suffers, other will be playing for the WIngs but will spend much less time on the ice which will hinder there development. So while it might hurt to part with younger talent(who we can;t be sure are even going to be any good), it is a necessary part of the business. That being said every team should have their untouchables; a list which should include guys like: Tatar, Nyquist, and several others. They just can't all be labeled untouchable. Kindle had a good season last year, which most likely raised his value on the open market but management overvalued him, held on to him and now he is struggling. Holland believes in his prospects so much that he went out and got Quincey back for a first rounder after just letting him leave because of roster space. 

 

Injuries not withstanding this team was built with far too many holes in it, and to plug those holes trades have to be made. Ever since more and more teams started re-signing their young players before they become free agents; the free agent market has had fewer top players on it and most of them want big bucks. Even mediocre players are cleaning up. With the Salary cap, free agency has become a terrible place to rebuild a team. As much as we would all love to keep our young prospects for the fear of them becoming good players somewhere else it's just not plausible. So I beliveve that there is nothing wrong with trading a few younger players along with draft picks to help improve a team, you just have to be smart about the trade you make. Quincey for a first rounder equals bad trade, but finding a way to get a guy like Vanek or Girardi for example and having exclusive negotiating rights with them, will help the team now and in the future.   

Nice wall of text, but to pretty much destroy it:

 

Current asking price for Steve Ott: First round draft pick and a top level prospect.

 

Any player that would constitute an upgrade and not a patch would be a player that would be a lot better than a Steve Ott level player. Thus would probably mean mortgaging the future to get said player. 


Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#768 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,851 posts

Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:33 AM

Is Murray out of his mind a first and a top level! prospect for Steve Ott? Lol the Sabres better come to reality soon or Miller, Ott and Moulson are walking for zero in the summer. Same goes to Snow and his asking prices no one will give up a first top level and b prospect for 2 months of Vanek.

Edited by frankgrimes, 26 February 2014 - 11:38 AM.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#769 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,431 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:39 AM

What a team says that they want and what they'll actually take are usually two different things.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#770 BottleOfSmoke

BottleOfSmoke

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,992 posts
  • Location:It's so hot in the P

Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:44 AM

@AnsarKhanMLive: Holland said he will not sell at the trade deadline. Would like to make a hockey trade if possible. Trade that helps now and in future.

@AnsarKhanMLive: Holland won't trade a top prospect for a rental he said.

LGWsig_zpsa75c5d1e.jpg

 


#771 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,431 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:48 AM

@AnsarKhanMLive: Holland said he will not sell at the trade deadline. Would like to make a hockey trade if possible. Trade that helps now and in future.

@AnsarKhanMLive: Holland won't trade a top prospect for a rental he said.

 

He shouldn't trade a top prospect for a rental, not necessarily trade a guy just to get a pick if it's going to hurt the chances of making the playoffs.  I don't think dumping Quincey would be a big deal, and certainly if he can get a pick for Cleary or Bertuzzi he should, but anything else should be something that improves the team for this year and going forward.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#772 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:52 AM

Nice wall of text, but to pretty much destroy it:
 
Current asking price for Steve Ott: First round draft pick and a top level prospect.
 
Any player that would constitute an upgrade and not a patch would be a player that would be a lot better than a Steve Ott level player. Thus would probably mean mortgaging the future to get said player.


Trading prospects for good players and then keeping them is not the same thing as mortgaging your future for a patch.
There are always plenty of trades made and not all of them are of the Ott for the entire farm system variety.

"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#773 Son of a Wing

Son of a Wing

    London Lions Captain

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,756 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:01 PM

Trading prospects for good players and then keeping them is not the same thing as mortgaging your future for a patch.
There are always plenty of trades made and not all of them are of the Ott for the entire farm system variety.

 

So you're talking a Bobby Ryan type deal or a lesser version of that or what? 

 

Any way you look at it, if you have a proven roster player coming back with term and value then your going to give up a valuable roster player and/or top prospect and/or high draft pick. 


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#774 RyanBarnes!

RyanBarnes!

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,933 posts

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:10 PM

Sproul being called up is interesting. Kindl is the only defenseman out from what I know. Could there be a trade?

Calling up a defenseman would then indicate that Holland is looking to move a defenseman, but any defenseman on the team must be replaced. Kronwall is not being traded. Dekeyser is not being traded. Lashoff will not yield much return. That leaves Ericsson, Smith and Quincey. Doubt they would trade Ericsson. To make a trade, it should be an upgrade. So maybe a Smith/Quincey and Nyquist for ?

I'm not sure what is out there, but Holland like veterans. I would hope someone with a physical presence.
"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#775 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,431 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:18 PM

 

Well let me be a bit more clear. I never advocated mortgaging the future for a quick fix, but let's not kid ourselves whether we're talking about this year, next year or 4 years down the line this team needs to upgrade. IMHO the worst thing an organization can do is over value their prospects, which is something that the Wings organization is prone to do. 

 

I disagree with the premise that the Wings overvalue their prospects.  Not trading prospects and not following through with some of the trade suggestions that fans make-some of which are completely off the wall, doesn't mean that they're overvaluing their prospects.  It means that they place good value on them, and won't make a move just to make a move.  They have a lot better handle on what they can be reasonably be expected to do than anyone outside of the organization, and generally keep the guys that turn into good players and the guys they move usually don't turn into anything special.  Between the salary cap situation and a limited number of top players being moved compared to what it was like before the cap, it doesn't make a lot of sense to go over the top of some of the trades that are made, and a lot of fans tend to overvalue what the Wings have to trade anyway.  

 

I'll use the Bobby Ryan trade as an example.  I saw a lot of people saying that a package of Nyquist, Ouellet or Kindl, and a first would have been the same as Silfverberg and Noesen and a first.  Not so.  Silfverberg is bigger and younger than Nyquist, who at that point had just had a good career at Maine and a so-so NHL debut, and was a higher draft pick.  Noesen was also bigger, younger, and projects to be as good or better than Ouellet, and is younger and potentially better than Kindl.  In order to have gotten Ryan, Holland would have had to add value, and that's assuming the Ducks weren't set on getting SIlfverberg to the point of not wanting anyone the Wing had.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#776 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,461 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:22 PM

Wish we could pry Boyle out of SJ

#777 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:25 PM

 

So you're talking a Bobby Ryan type deal or a lesser version of that or what? 

 

Any way you look at it, if you have a proven roster player coming back with term and value then your going to give up a valuable roster player and/or top prospect and/or high draft pick. 

 

And I would have no problem trading a roster player/plus. My thought is that with the way this team has looked, other then several players should we even have untouchables? 

 

The problem is that whether any team would be willing to trade anyone decent if a guy like Abby were included plus picks/prospects?. 


"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 


#778 RyanBarnes!

RyanBarnes!

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,933 posts

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:28 PM

Wish we could pry Boyle out of SJ

Boyle is 37, but maybe he has a couple of season's left in him still. Definitely a Holland type of move. I would not give up Smith for him though.

Edited by RyanBarnes!, 26 February 2014 - 12:29 PM.

"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#779 Son of a Wing

Son of a Wing

    London Lions Captain

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,756 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

 

And I would have no problem trading a roster player/plus. My thought is that with the way this team has looked, other then several players should we even have untouchables? 

 

The problem is that whether any team would be willing to trade anyone decent if a guy like Abby were included plus picks/prospects?. 

 

That's fair.  As far as untouchables go, aside from Dats, Z and Kronner and NTCs, I think Holland would move anyone if the right deal presented itself.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#780 wings87

wings87

    Wake Up!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:33 PM

 

I disagree with the premise that the Wings overvalue their prospects.  Not trading prospects and not following through with some of the trade suggestions that fans make-some of which are completely off the wall, doesn't mean that they're overvaluing their prospects.  It means that they place good value on them, and won't make a move just to make a move.  They have a lot better handle on what they can be reasonably be expected to do than anyone outside of the organization, and generally keep the guys that turn into good players and the guys they move usually don't turn into anything special.  Between the salary cap situation and a limited number of top players being moved compared to what it was like before the cap, it doesn't make a lot of sense to go over the top of some of the trades that are made, and a lot of fans tend to overvalue what the Wings have to trade anyway.  

 

I'll use the Bobby Ryan trade as an example.  I saw a lot of people saying that a package of Nyquist, Ouellet or Kindl, and a first would have been the same as Silfverberg and Noesen and a first.  Not so.  Silfverberg is bigger and younger than Nyquist, who at that point had just had a good career at Maine and a so-so NHL debut, and was a higher draft pick.  Noesen was also bigger, younger, and projects to be as good or better than Ouellet, and is younger and potentially better than Kindl.  In order to have gotten Ryan, Holland would have had to add value, and that's assuming the Ducks weren't set on getting SIlfverberg to the point of not wanting anyone the Wing had.

 

I don't think it's just a Red Wing issue, most teams in every sport overvalue their prospects. I think it has a lot to do with hoping young players become good so that the organization can save on salary instead of getting proven players and paying them more. I just wish the team would sometimes put hope aside and realize that the player they love so much is just isn't as good as they think he is.  


"He usually shows up when the game is over and tries to be the hero. Puts his cape on and goes and flies out there." ~ Franzen 






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users