Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Vets over the Kids?, not any more eh Babs.


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1 Andy Pred 48

Andy Pred 48

    Coming soon,"the slovak line" Marek and 2 Toms!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,885 posts
  • Location:Peterborough England

Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:18 PM

Just for a bit of fun I thought about the scenario that, what if the kids had started from the start of the season instead of the current 4 vets that are out of the lineup. Due to being injured,scratched or demoted. So without further ado here are the results of my findings, which can be classed in anyway you want to judge them.

 I have taken the current stats of Bert, Dan, Sammy and Stephen and compared their projected totals for 56 games against those of Gus,Riley and the 2 Tom's projected outputs.

 

At their present scoring rate after 56 games the combined vets have a total of 37 points, 18+19 . This moment in time they have played a total of 148 games for 26 points with a -35 rating. Which would be -50 over the combined 224 games. Broken down, Bertuzzi 8+6 -20, Cleary 4+5 -12, Weiss 4+4 -9 and Samuelsson 2+4 -9. Not good eh?

 

At the other end of the age scale we get a more happier outlook as fans.With the projected combined total of 126pts, 58+68. At present they have played a combined 111 games for 63 points with a +12 rating. This would be projected to be a +22 rating for the combined 224 games. The kids personal stats project as Nyqvist 24+18 +9, Tatar 16+13 +6, Sheahan 11+24 +7 and Jurco 7+13 even rating. This looks alot better overall for the team in general, i know these are hypothetical but which ever way you look at it all, the stats are more positive for the kids.

I know most of the spotlight has fallen on Gus and Tats but i think Riley and Tomas have done outstanding with Riley surprising me the most. Jurco will become a top top player and the thought of him and Mantha on the same line could be a very dangerous line for years to come.

 

Full steam ahead guys, and lets hope a couple of our D prospects can have the same sort of impact next year.


"What are you guys doing?" Reggie Dunlop
"Putting on the foil coach" Jeff Hanson
"Yeah, every game, you want some coach?" Steve Hanson
"Er, no. No thanks guys." Reggie Dunlop
"Make sure they don't leave the bench!" Reggie Dunlop.

#2 martinezsvsu

martinezsvsu

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 540 posts

Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:24 PM

no need to put weiss in there



#3 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,219 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:44 PM

no need to put weiss in there

I agree.  He's had a rough go this year coming off an injury plagued season straight to a groin issue and a sports hernia.  After the Olympics, the real Weiss will be back methinks.  Add him to the line up we have and we're looking good.  Add a healthy Franzen and we're lethal.  

 

I think that this year is a real lesson for Kenny and Babcock showing that you don't always have to be overripe, but ripe is good too.  We have a great future at forward and with the likes of Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen and Mantha on their way as well, we're looking good.  Add to the mix a guy or 2 out of Callahan, Tuzzi Jr, or Nastasiuk and you got some sandpaper.  

 

On D, Ouellet, Sproul, Backman, Marchenko, Jensen and possibly De Haan sounds good if I remember correctly, we have a bright future there too.  Then you have Mrazek and Patterson to try to steal a job from Howard in the coming years, all the naysayers claiming the Wings are "done" now that Lids retired have no clue whatsoever and they forget that despite Holland's latest signing bullpoop, we still have great scouts that whisper some pretty damn good names in his ear at the draft table.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#4 barabbas16

barabbas16

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 442 posts
  • Location:Parkersburg, WV

Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:21 PM

Wait, so you guys have problems with the play of Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi this season. Got it.  That's been made abundantly clear by a ridiculous amount of posters.

 

Weiss, though, it is ok for him to play like garbage.  And don't give me he actually played better because he didn't.  Weiss has sucked at least as badly as the rest of the players mentioned this season.  He was terrible.

 

Weiss had a rough go of it coming off of an injury plagued season.  Yeah, that's true.  None of those other guys were coming off of injury plagued seasons, so that's totally different.

 

I get it, though.... Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt over those other guys because of all that he has given to the team in previous seasons.  I mean, he contributed to a Stanley Cup victory in Detroit....

 

Seriously, though, can someone please explain to me this double standard?

 

Sorry - I know it isn't a Weiss thread.  I agree that the kids are contributing better than the aforementioned veterans have this season, including Stephen Weiss (at least just as much as the others mentioned).



#5 jimmyemeryhunter

jimmyemeryhunter

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,530 posts

Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:28 PM

Wait, so you guys have problems with the play of Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi this season. Got it.  That's been made abundantly clear by a ridiculous amount of posters.
 
Weiss, though, it is ok for him to play like garbage.  And don't give me he actually played better because he didn't.  Weiss has sucked at least as badly as the rest of the players mentioned this season.  He was terrible.
 
Weiss had a rough go of it coming off of an injury plagued season.  Yeah, that's true.  None of those other guys were coming off of injury plagued seasons, so that's totally different.
 
I get it, though.... Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt over those other guys because of all that he has given to the team in previous seasons.  I mean, he contributed to a Stanley Cup victory in Detroit....
 
Seriously, though, can someone please explain to me this double standard?
 
Sorry - I know it isn't a Weiss thread.  I agree that the kids are contributing better than the aforementioned veterans have this season, including Stephen Weiss (at least just as much as the others mentioned).


Weiss wasn't anywhere as bad as them.
He was just invisible, not good, not bad, just there.

#6 ben_usmc

ben_usmc

    Kenny Powers Fan

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,829 posts
  • Location:ypsilanti

Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:34 PM

Wait, so you guys have problems with the play of Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi this season. Got it.  That's been made abundantly clear by a ridiculous amount of posters.

 

Weiss, though, it is ok for him to play like garbage.  And don't give me he actually played better because he didn't.  Weiss has sucked at least as badly as the rest of the players mentioned this season.  He was terrible.

 

Weiss had a rough go of it coming off of an injury plagued season.  Yeah, that's true.  None of those other guys were coming off of injury plagued seasons, so that's totally different.

 

I get it, though.... Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt over those other guys because of all that he has given to the team in previous seasons.  I mean, he contributed to a Stanley Cup victory in Detroit....

 

Seriously, though, can someone please explain to me this double standard?

 

Sorry - I know it isn't a Weiss thread.  I agree that the kids are contributing better than the aforementioned veterans have this season, including Stephen Weiss (at least just as much as the others mentioned).

There is no double standard.  Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi, have been s***ty for more than just a season, none of them should have been signed, or should have retired.  Weiss has played 26 games with the Wings and some speculating he started the season with the injury. We haven't even seen enough of Weiss to even develop an idea of his game like/hate.   With in the last 4-5 years, Weiss was at one point a go to guy for his team, where Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi again should have been off the time for the last few years.  He also is at least 5? years younger than all 3 of the other players and is in his prime years.....  I'm pretty indifferent if he comes back or not considering the kids are great, How can't you see the difference in circumstances?


Edited by ben_usmc, 04 February 2014 - 11:35 PM.

There's no I in team, but there's a U in c***, so don't be little jealous c***s

#7 barabbas16

barabbas16

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 442 posts
  • Location:Parkersburg, WV

Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:54 PM

There is no double standard.  Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi, have been s***ty for more than just a season, none of them should have been signed, or should have retired.  Weiss has played 26 games with the Wings and some speculating he started the season with the injury. We haven't even seen enough of Weiss to even develop an idea of his game like/hate.   With in the last 4-5 years, Weiss was at one point a go to guy for his team, where Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi again should have been off the time for the last few years.  He also is at least 5? years younger than all 3 of the other players and is in his prime years.....  I'm pretty indifferent if he comes back or not considering the kids are great, How can't you see the difference in circumstances?

 

Ok, I disagree.  There is a double standard.  I guess I just look at it differently.  How can't you see the similarities?  Let's look at one example...

 

Weiss played only 17 games mast season due to injury.  He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 4 points.

 

Samuelsson played only 9 games last season due to injury.  He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 3 points.

 

One of the posts above clearly gives Weiss a pass for his poor play this season because of coming off of an injury.  Samuelsson gets no such pass from anyone and is basically crucified on this board.  And yet, in a way, he is in basically the exact same situation as Weiss. 

 

double standard

n
1. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another


#8 Echolalia

Echolalia

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,140 posts
  • Location:fab ferndale

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:08 AM

By that vague of a definition, any player comparison could easily be construed to be a double standard.

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm personally not giving Weiss the benefit of the doubt because he's coming off an injury plagued season. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think the sports hernia/groin issues have been a consistent issue since he's been a Wing, and I don't think we have seen Weiss play a game yet healthy.

#9 number9

number9

    All The Best Players Wear A 9

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,917 posts
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:25 AM


 
Ok, I disagree.  There is a double standard.  I guess I just look at it differently.  How can't you see the similarities?  Let's look at one example...
 
Weiss played only 17 games mast season due to injury.  He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 4 points.
 
Samuelsson played only 9 games last season due to injury.  He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 3 points.
 
One of the posts above clearly gives Weiss a pass for his poor play this season because of coming off of an injury.  Samuelsson gets no such pass from anyone and is basically crucified on this board.  And yet, in a way, he is in basically the exact same situation as Weiss. 
 
double standard
n
1. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another


I agree with everything you said, but I give Weiss the benefit cause he's barely a vet, a lot younger than the other three. Still plenty of time to regain his form. The other 3 are at the end of their careers

#10 martinezsvsu

martinezsvsu

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 540 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:30 AM

we all need to give babs and holland a standing ovation for finally putting the best team on the ice instead of trying to be loyal and biting the bullet on who they spent a lot of money on. 

 

as for weiss, i thought he looked decent out there this year. almost like another alfie, but for some reason he wasnt putting up points. maybe because he didnt have the chemistry with his linemates or the system or maybe he was just not healthy enough. i will say that he was pretty weak on the puck.

basically weiss shouldnt be on that list because of the eye test. maybe im just way more about watching games than looking at stat sheets though.



#11 rick zombo

rick zombo

    Grit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,283 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:33 AM

Holland’s new gospel on the matter

 

http://www.detroitne...0120/1128/rss16

 

 

“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

 

 

 

“I see us going into 2014-15 as a young team,” Holland said. “Given what these young players have shown here, what they’ve accomplished in the AHL (winning Calder Cup), and players we have down there, it’s working that way.”

"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#12 martinezsvsu

martinezsvsu

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 540 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:39 AM

im hoping to see callahan and ferraro in the line up often next year too!



#13 GoalieManPat

GoalieManPat

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,413 posts
  • Location:Swartz Creek, MI

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:49 AM

Bert, Sammy, and Cleary are fine on your list. I wouldn't include Weiss. Sure hes a vet but hes a vet in his prime being only 30. Bert, Sammy, and Cleary are washed up vets on the wrong side of 35. I believe Weiss was a lot more hurt the first half of the season than was let on as he wanted to play and prove himself to a new club. Its worth holding off judgement on him for a while still before you could throw him in with the other 3. 



#14 joesuffP

joesuffP

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,450 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:50 AM

I really like our forward group, especially if we can stay healthy. It's the Defense that I'm worried about and would like Holland to upgrade. Another vet could stabilize the bottom 4

#15 martinezsvsu

martinezsvsu

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 540 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:55 AM

I really like our forward group, especially if we can stay healthy. It's the Defense that I'm worried about and would like Holland to upgrade. Another vet could stabilize the bottom 4

for sure, the offense looks stacked with a healthy line up and keeping some kids up. but the defense... kronwall, E, and dekeyser are good. quincey kindl smith and lashoff... thats probably going to hold us back. next season ouellet and/or marchenko could be the answer.



#16 VM1138

VM1138

    Legend

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,609 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:09 AM


 
Ok, I disagree.  There is a double standard.  I guess I just look at it differently.  How can't you see the similarities?  Let's look at one example...
 
Weiss played only 17 games mast season due to injury.  He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 4 points.
 
Samuelsson played only 9 games last season due to injury.  He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 3 points.
 
One of the posts above clearly gives Weiss a pass for his poor play this season because of coming off of an injury.  Samuelsson gets no such pass from anyone and is basically crucified on this board.  And yet, in a way, he is in basically the exact same situation as Weiss. 
 
double standard
n
1. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another


Others have made this point but I'll echo it. Weiss was invisible. He didn't cost us games and he wasn't "bad.". He was a disappointment but he didn't hurt us like Cleary and Sammy and Quincey and others have. Hence, he gets more of a benefit of the doubt.

No impact, while not good, is better than a negative impact.
Check out my short e-book on the Red Wings' 1937 Stanley Cup championship entitled: "Nothing Could Keep 'Em Down." Please download it from my profile at Smashwords: https://www.smashwor...ile/view/victor

New e-book: The Spanish-American War: A Brief History. Relatively short, introductory read for casual history buffs and people who want to learn more about a forgotten war that changed America. Available at BN.com, Smashwords, Kobo, and Diesel E-Books right now. Same link as above.

#17 Z and D for the C

Z and D for the C

    This is the TBL forum, right?

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,035 posts
  • Location:D, Michigan

Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:47 AM

Not to mention Cleary, Sammy and Bert have a history of being s***ty. We know it's the case with them. And they're super old. Weiss has been good in the past, is in his prime years and might finish off the season much better than he started.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#18 DickieDunn

DickieDunn

    http://redwingsandotherthings.wordpress.com/

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,561 posts
  • Location:Belding

Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

If Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson got hurt in camp and never got right, they'd get some benefit of the doubt.  They've been healthy, just bad.  Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt because he has been hurt all year.  It is not speculation, it's documented fact unless you think that either Kahn or the team is lying about it.  He's 30 years old and has a history of 50+ point seasons, there's no legitimate reason to think that he won't be productive when he gets back healthy.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#19 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

Weiss's play has hurt us more than the others, because he was supposed to be an important player. Sammy didn't get a regular spot until we were out of bodies and cap space, and even then it was 8 minutes on the 4th line. Neither Cleary nor Bert were as important, and both have produced more.

 

That said, regardless of performance, the evidence of past performance strongly suggests that Weiss should be a more effective player than any of the kids. Having him over Sheahan and Jurco is a no brainer, considering we do need penalty killers, we have 12 forwards better than both of them. They should not have been on the team. Tots only missed 8 games early in the year, and in those games the 4 vets produced 6g, 8p. Replacing any one of them with Tots wouldn't have made any significant difference.

 

The only real complaint is with Gus, who had the unfortunate distinction of being waiver exempt.



#20 Andy Pred 48

Andy Pred 48

    Coming soon,"the slovak line" Marek and 2 Toms!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,885 posts
  • Location:Peterborough England

Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:51 PM

guys, just to make a note. Im not actually bashing any player here as some have got upset over my inclusion of Weiss. What i have done is compared the stats of the vets that are out against the kids who have in theory taken on their roles. If Weiss was injured then he should have informed the staff before it got as bad as it did.  What we shouldnt overlook is the fact that in the games Weiss has performed in when he's said he is 100% fit, he hasn't come over as a vet 2nd line center to date. New team or not, he should have put up better numbers than he has. Look at other teams signings and compare their new players and how they are adapting to their new systems and roles within the team.


"What are you guys doing?" Reggie Dunlop
"Putting on the foil coach" Jeff Hanson
"Yeah, every game, you want some coach?" Steve Hanson
"Er, no. No thanks guys." Reggie Dunlop
"Make sure they don't leave the bench!" Reggie Dunlop.





Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users