Vets over the Kids?, not any more eh Babs.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Just for a bit of fun I thought about the scenario that, what if the kids had started from the start of the season instead of the current 4 vets that are out of the lineup. Due to being injured,scratched or demoted. So without further ado here are the results of my findings, which can be classed in anyway you want to judge them.

I have taken the current stats of Bert, Dan, Sammy and Stephen and compared their projected totals for 56 games against those of Gus,Riley and the 2 Tom's projected outputs.

At their present scoring rate after 56 games the combined vets have a total of 37 points, 18+19 . This moment in time they have played a total of 148 games for 26 points with a -35 rating. Which would be -50 over the combined 224 games. Broken down, Bertuzzi 8+6 -20, Cleary 4+5 -12, Weiss 4+4 -9 and Samuelsson 2+4 -9. Not good eh?

At the other end of the age scale we get a more happier outlook as fans.With the projected combined total of 126pts, 58+68. At present they have played a combined 111 games for 63 points with a +12 rating. This would be projected to be a +22 rating for the combined 224 games. The kids personal stats project as Nyqvist 24+18 +9, Tatar 16+13 +6, Sheahan 11+24 +7 and Jurco 7+13 even rating. This looks alot better overall for the team in general, i know these are hypothetical but which ever way you look at it all, the stats are more positive for the kids.

I know most of the spotlight has fallen on Gus and Tats but i think Riley and Tomas have done outstanding with Riley surprising me the most. Jurco will become a top top player and the thought of him and Mantha on the same line could be a very dangerous line for years to come.

Full steam ahead guys, and lets hope a couple of our D prospects can have the same sort of impact next year.

[martinezsvsu 240]

no need to put weiss in there

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

no need to put weiss in there

I agree. He's had a rough go this year coming off an injury plagued season straight to a groin issue and a sports hernia. After the Olympics, the real Weiss will be back methinks. Add him to the line up we have and we're looking good. Add a healthy Franzen and we're lethal.

I think that this year is a real lesson for Kenny and Babcock showing that you don't always have to be overripe, but ripe is good too. We have a great future at forward and with the likes of Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen and Mantha on their way as well, we're looking good. Add to the mix a guy or 2 out of Callahan, Tuzzi Jr, or Nastasiuk and you got some sandpaper.

On D, Ouellet, Sproul, Backman, Marchenko, Jensen and possibly De Haan sounds good if I remember correctly, we have a bright future there too. Then you have Mrazek and Patterson to try to steal a job from Howard in the coming years, all the naysayers claiming the Wings are "done" now that Lids retired have no clue whatsoever and they forget that despite Holland's latest signing bullpoop, we still have great scouts that whisper some pretty damn good names in his ear at the draft table.

[barabbas16 499]

Wait, so you guys have problems with the play of Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi this season. Got it. That's been made abundantly clear by a ridiculous amount of posters.

Weiss, though, it is ok for him to play like garbage. And don't give me he actually played better because he didn't. Weiss has sucked at least as badly as the rest of the players mentioned this season. He was terrible.

Weiss had a rough go of it coming off of an injury plagued season. Yeah, that's true. None of those other guys were coming off of injury plagued seasons, so that's totally different.

I get it, though.... Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt over those other guys because of all that he has given to the team in previous seasons. I mean, he contributed to a Stanley Cup victory in Detroit....

Seriously, though, can someone please explain to me this double standard?

Sorry - I know it isn't a Weiss thread. I agree that the kids are contributing better than the aforementioned veterans have this season, including Stephen Weiss (at least just as much as the others mentioned).

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Wait, so you guys have problems with the play of Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi this season. Got it. That's been made abundantly clear by a ridiculous amount of posters.

Weiss, though, it is ok for him to play like garbage. And don't give me he actually played better because he didn't. Weiss has sucked at least as badly as the rest of the players mentioned this season. He was terrible.

Weiss had a rough go of it coming off of an injury plagued season. Yeah, that's true. None of those other guys were coming off of injury plagued seasons, so that's totally different.

I get it, though.... Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt over those other guys because of all that he has given to the team in previous seasons. I mean, he contributed to a Stanley Cup victory in Detroit....

Seriously, though, can someone please explain to me this double standard?

Sorry - I know it isn't a Weiss thread. I agree that the kids are contributing better than the aforementioned veterans have this season, including Stephen Weiss (at least just as much as the others mentioned).

Weiss wasn't anywhere as bad as them.

He was just invisible, not good, not bad, just there.

[ben_usmc 253]

Wait, so you guys have problems with the play of Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi this season. Got it. That's been made abundantly clear by a ridiculous amount of posters.

Weiss, though, it is ok for him to play like garbage. And don't give me he actually played better because he didn't. Weiss has sucked at least as badly as the rest of the players mentioned this season. He was terrible.

Weiss had a rough go of it coming off of an injury plagued season. Yeah, that's true. None of those other guys were coming off of injury plagued seasons, so that's totally different.

I get it, though.... Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt over those other guys because of all that he has given to the team in previous seasons. I mean, he contributed to a Stanley Cup victory in Detroit....

Seriously, though, can someone please explain to me this double standard?

Sorry - I know it isn't a Weiss thread. I agree that the kids are contributing better than the aforementioned veterans have this season, including Stephen Weiss (at least just as much as the others mentioned).

There is no double standard. Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi, have been s***ty for more than just a season, none of them should have been signed, or should have retired. Weiss has played 26 games with the Wings and some speculating he started the season with the injury. We haven't even seen enough of Weiss to even develop an idea of his game like/hate. With in the last 4-5 years, Weiss was at one point a go to guy for his team, where Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi again should have been off the time for the last few years. He also is at least 5? years younger than all 3 of the other players and is in his prime years..... I'm pretty indifferent if he comes back or not considering the kids are great, How can't you see the difference in circumstances?

Edited February 5, 2014 by ben_usmc

[barabbas16 499]

There is no double standard. Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi, have been s***ty for more than just a season, none of them should have been signed, or should have retired. Weiss has played 26 games with the Wings and some speculating he started the season with the injury. We haven't even seen enough of Weiss to even develop an idea of his game like/hate. With in the last 4-5 years, Weiss was at one point a go to guy for his team, where Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi again should have been off the time for the last few years. He also is at least 5? years younger than all 3 of the other players and is in his prime years..... I'm pretty indifferent if he comes back or not considering the kids are great, How can't you see the difference in circumstances?

Ok, I disagree. There is a double standard. I guess I just look at it differently. How can't you see the similarities? Let's look at one example...

Weiss played only 17 games mast season due to injury. He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 4 points.

Samuelsson played only 9 games last season due to injury. He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 3 points.

One of the posts above clearly gives Weiss a pass for his poor play this season because of coming off of an injury. Samuelsson gets no such pass from anyone and is basically crucified on this board. And yet, in a way, he is in basically the exact same situation as Weiss.

double standard

n

1. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another

[Echolalia 2,961]

By that vague of a definition, any player comparison could easily be construed to be a double standard.

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm personally not giving Weiss the benefit of the doubt because he's coming off an injury plagued season. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think the sports hernia/groin issues have been a consistent issue since he's been a Wing, and I don't think we have seen Weiss play a game yet healthy.

[number9 3,297]

Ok, I disagree. There is a double standard. I guess I just look at it differently. How can't you see the similarities? Let's look at one example...

Weiss played only 17 games mast season due to injury. He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 4 points.

Samuelsson played only 9 games last season due to injury. He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 3 points.

One of the posts above clearly gives Weiss a pass for his poor play this season because of coming off of an injury. Samuelsson gets no such pass from anyone and is basically crucified on this board. And yet, in a way, he is in basically the exact same situation as Weiss.

double standard

n

1. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another

I agree with everything you said, but I give Weiss the benefit cause he's barely a vet, a lot younger than the other three. Still plenty of time to regain his form. The other 3 are at the end of their careers

[martinezsvsu 240]

we all need to give babs and holland a standing ovation for finally putting the best team on the ice instead of trying to be loyal and biting the bullet on who they spent a lot of money on.

as for weiss, i thought he looked decent out there this year. almost like another alfie, but for some reason he wasnt putting up points. maybe because he didnt have the chemistry with his linemates or the system or maybe he was just not healthy enough. i will say that he was pretty weak on the puck.

basically weiss shouldnt be on that list because of the eye test. maybe im just way more about watching games than looking at stat sheets though.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Holland’s new gospel on the matter

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140204/SPORTS0103/302040120/1128/rss16

“I don’t know if there are many players on the market who we feel are better than (young players the Red Wings currently have),” Holland said.

“I see us going into 2014-15 as a young team,” Holland said. “Given what these young players have shown here, what they’ve accomplished in the AHL (winning Calder Cup), and players we have down there, it’s working that way.”

[martinezsvsu 240]

im hoping to see callahan and ferraro in the line up often next year too!

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

Bert, Sammy, and Cleary are fine on your list. I wouldn't include Weiss. Sure hes a vet but hes a vet in his prime being only 30. Bert, Sammy, and Cleary are washed up vets on the wrong side of 35. I believe Weiss was a lot more hurt the first half of the season than was let on as he wanted to play and prove himself to a new club. Its worth holding off judgement on him for a while still before you could throw him in with the other 3.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I really like our forward group, especially if we can stay healthy. It's the Defense that I'm worried about and would like Holland to upgrade. Another vet could stabilize the bottom 4

[martinezsvsu 240]

I really like our forward group, especially if we can stay healthy. It's the Defense that I'm worried about and would like Holland to upgrade. Another vet could stabilize the bottom 4

for sure, the offense looks stacked with a healthy line up and keeping some kids up. but the defense... kronwall, E, and dekeyser are good. quincey kindl smith and lashoff... thats probably going to hold us back. next season ouellet and/or marchenko could be the answer.

[VM1138 1,921]

Ok, I disagree. There is a double standard. I guess I just look at it differently. How can't you see the similarities? Let's look at one example...

Weiss played only 17 games mast season due to injury. He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 4 points.

Samuelsson played only 9 games last season due to injury. He has played 26 games this season, poorly, and scored 3 points.

One of the posts above clearly gives Weiss a pass for his poor play this season because of coming off of an injury. Samuelsson gets no such pass from anyone and is basically crucified on this board. And yet, in a way, he is in basically the exact same situation as Weiss.

double standard

n

1. a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another

Others have made this point but I'll echo it. Weiss was invisible. He didn't cost us games and he wasn't "bad.". He was a disappointment but he didn't hurt us like Cleary and Sammy and Quincey and others have. Hence, he gets more of a benefit of the doubt.

No impact, while not good, is better than a negative impact.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Not to mention Cleary, Sammy and Bert have a history of being s***ty. We know it's the case with them. And they're super old. Weiss has been good in the past, is in his prime years and might finish off the season much better than he started.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

If Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson got hurt in camp and never got right, they'd get some benefit of the doubt. They've been healthy, just bad. Weiss gets the benefit of the doubt because he has been hurt all year. It is not speculation, it's documented fact unless you think that either Kahn or the team is lying about it. He's 30 years old and has a history of 50+ point seasons, there's no legitimate reason to think that he won't be productive when he gets back healthy.

[Buppy 1,720]

Weiss's play has hurt us more than the others, because he was supposed to be an important player. Sammy didn't get a regular spot until we were out of bodies and cap space, and even then it was 8 minutes on the 4th line. Neither Cleary nor Bert were as important, and both have produced more.

That said, regardless of performance, the evidence of past performance strongly suggests that Weiss should be a more effective player than any of the kids. Having him over Sheahan and Jurco is a no brainer, considering we do need penalty killers, we have 12 forwards better than both of them. They should not have been on the team. Tots only missed 8 games early in the year, and in those games the 4 vets produced 6g, 8p. Replacing any one of them with Tots wouldn't have made any significant difference.

The only real complaint is with Gus, who had the unfortunate distinction of being waiver exempt.

[Andy Pred 48 337]

guys, just to make a note. Im not actually bashing any player here as some have got upset over my inclusion of Weiss. What i have done is compared the stats of the vets that are out against the kids who have in theory taken on their roles. If Weiss was injured then he should have informed the staff before it got as bad as it did. What we shouldnt overlook is the fact that in the games Weiss has performed in when he's said he is 100% fit, he hasn't come over as a vet 2nd line center to date. New team or not, he should have put up better numbers than he has. Look at other teams signings and compare their new players and how they are adapting to their new systems and roles within the team.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

guys, just to make a note. Im not actually bashing any player here as some have got upset over my inclusion of Weiss. What i have done is compared the stats of the vets that are out against the kids who have in theory taken on their roles. If Weiss was injured then he should have informed the staff before it got as bad as it did. What we shouldnt overlook is the fact that in the games Weiss has performed in when he's said he is 100% fit, he hasn't come over as a vet 2nd line center to date. New team or not, he should have put up better numbers than he has. Look at other teams signings and compare their new players and how they are adapting to their new systems and roles within the team.

As many people here have stated. Let's wait till he's healthy to make judgements and comparisons.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I like how Weiss didn't use his injury as an excuse for his poor play. I almost expected him to lash out on Babcock when he was a regular 4th line center but he kept his mouth shut. I think the whole team knew he was playing with an injury then everyone realized he would need to have surgery because he wasn't cutting it

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Comparing an injured player in his prime to an old player past his prime is comparing apples to oranges. There is no double standard.

[gcom007 1,465]

Just want to echo the "wait and see" approach with Weiss. I get where those who are frustrated are coming from on some level, but given the injuries, his younger age and adjusting to a new team, I think it's fair to suggest that Weiss might end up being fine down the stretch. If he continues to struggle with injuries and be invisible, then he should be taking more of a beating from fans than our old guys; he'll deserve it maybe next year.

[barabbas16 499]

By that vague of a definition, any player comparison could easily be construed to be a double standard.

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm personally not giving Weiss the benefit of the doubt because he's coming off an injury plagued season. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think the sports hernia/groin issues have been a consistent issue since he's been a Wing, and I don't think we have seen Weiss play a game yet healthy.

Whether you think it vague or not, that is the definition. Therefore, I was correct in my use of the words.

I agree with everything you said, but I give Weiss the benefit cause he's barely a vet, a lot younger than the other three. Still plenty of time to regain his form. The other 3 are at the end of their careers

Others have made this point but I'll echo it. Weiss was invisible. He didn't cost us games and he wasn't "bad.". He was a disappointment but he didn't hurt us like Cleary and Sammy and Quincey and others have. Hence, he gets more of a benefit of the doubt.

No impact, while not good, is better than a negative impact.

Ok, these are the kind of responses I was looking for. I disagree that Weiss was just invisible and not bad. I think you're splitting hairs there, but ok. Obviously Weiss is younger than the other vets mentioned and just as obviously there is much more hope that he will turn it around, mainly because he is still here for another four years.

On the other hand, would you not also agree that Weiss very much has the possibility/potential to be a much worse signing than any of the others when it is all said and done? And, thus far in the Winged Wheel he has shown us nothing to lead us to believe that he is at all worth his contract?

I'll agree that if we just look at them on an even playing field, maybe Weiss hasn't played as poorly as Cleary, Sammy, and Bert this season. But he was supposed to be the 2nd line center, pulling the top 6 together. He was supposed to have a bigger, more prominent role than the others. He's getting paid like it too - about as much as two of those other guys.... and got a 5 year contract. The others all have contracts that are up after this season. Also, none of the others are playing right now. The guys that everyone wanted to be playing instead of them are playing. Weiss isn't playing, but the guy he replaced has lit it up in Tampa and Detroit has no real 2nd line center in his absence, what with injuries to Datsyuk and Zetterberg.... but part of the reason Weiss was signed was so that those two could play together.

For me, if I look at what was expected at the beginning of the season vs. what we've gotten so far.... I think Weiss is the furthest off the mark, currently, and the most disappointing.