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Vets over the Kids?, not any more eh Babs.


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#21 Son of a Wing

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:59 PM

guys, just to make a note. Im not actually bashing any player here as some have got upset over my inclusion of Weiss. What i have done is compared the stats of the vets that are out against the kids who have in theory taken on their roles. If Weiss was injured then he should have informed the staff before it got as bad as it did.  What we shouldnt overlook is the fact that in the games Weiss has performed in when he's said he is 100% fit, he hasn't come over as a vet 2nd line center to date. New team or not, he should have put up better numbers than he has. Look at other teams signings and compare their new players and how they are adapting to their new systems and roles within the team.

 

As many people here have stated. Let's wait till he's healthy to make judgements and comparisons.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#22 joesuffP

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

I like how Weiss didn't use his injury as an excuse for his poor play. I almost expected him to lash out on Babcock when he was a regular 4th line center but he kept his mouth shut. I think the whole team knew he was playing with an injury then everyone realized he would need to have surgery because he wasn't cutting it

#23 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:45 PM

Comparing an injured player in his prime to an old player past his prime is comparing apples to oranges. There is no double standard.



#24 gcom007

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 07:43 PM

Just want to echo the "wait and see" approach with Weiss. I get where those who are frustrated are coming from on some level, but given the injuries, his younger age and adjusting to a new team, I think it's fair to suggest that Weiss might end up being fine down the stretch. If he continues to struggle with injuries and be invisible, then he should be taking more of a beating from fans than our old guys; he'll deserve it maybe next year.


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#25 barabbas16

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:05 PM

By that vague of a definition, any player comparison could easily be construed to be a double standard.

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm personally not giving Weiss the benefit of the doubt because he's coming off an injury plagued season. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think the sports hernia/groin issues have been a consistent issue since he's been a Wing, and I don't think we have seen Weiss play a game yet healthy.

 

Whether you think it vague or not, that is the definition.  Therefore, I was correct in my use of the words.

 

I agree with everything you said, but I give Weiss the benefit cause he's barely a vet, a lot younger than the other three. Still plenty of time to regain his form. The other 3 are at the end of their careers

 

Others have made this point but I'll echo it. Weiss was invisible. He didn't cost us games and he wasn't "bad.". He was a disappointment but he didn't hurt us like Cleary and Sammy and Quincey and others have. Hence, he gets more of a benefit of the doubt.

No impact, while not good, is better than a negative impact.

 

Ok, these are the kind of responses I was looking for.  I disagree that Weiss was just invisible and not bad.  I think you're splitting hairs there, but ok.  Obviously Weiss is younger than the other vets mentioned and just as obviously there is much more hope that he will turn it around, mainly because he is still here for another four years. 

 

On the other hand, would you not also agree that Weiss very much has the possibility/potential to be a much worse signing than any of the others when it is all said and done?  And, thus far in the Winged Wheel he has shown us nothing to lead us to believe that he is at all worth his contract?

 

I'll agree that if we just look at them on an even playing field, maybe Weiss hasn't played as poorly as Cleary, Sammy, and Bert this season.  But he was supposed to be the 2nd line center, pulling the top 6 together.  He was supposed to have a bigger, more prominent role than the others.  He's getting paid like it too - about as much as two of those other guys.... and got a 5 year contract.  The others all have contracts that are up after this season.  Also, none of the others are playing right now.  The guys that everyone wanted to be playing instead of them are playing.  Weiss isn't playing, but the guy he replaced has lit it up in Tampa and Detroit has no real 2nd line center in his absence, what with injuries to Datsyuk and Zetterberg.... but part of the reason Weiss was signed was so that those two could play together.

 

For me, if I look at what was expected at the beginning of the season vs. what we've gotten so far.... I think Weiss is the furthest off the mark, currently, and the most disappointing.



#26 barabbas16

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:12 PM

Comparing an injured player in his prime to an old player past his prime is comparing apples to oranges. There is no double standard.

 

You have a standard for apples and you have a standard for oranges.... except apples and oranges are actually both players on the Detroit Red Wings.  There is a double standard.  Weiss gets a pass for sucking and Sammy/Cleary/Bert don't. 



#27 Dabura

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:21 AM

barabbas, what's the issue? Weiss was hurt from the get-go, essentially. The other three have been mostly healthy. That distinction alone warrants different standards. I mean, sure, Weiss has been a disappointment. And, sure, it's true that he hasn't really done anything to distinguish himself from the other three. But we can be pretty sure that that's because he was playing through an injury. So, Weiss gets an asterisk, whereas the others are simply too old. Granted, it's not their fault that they're old.


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#28 matthewdanna

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:36 AM

Going back to how this thread started...

 

I do think we would have been better served starting the season playing the younger guys more and scratching the vets, but I don't know by how much. With the GR guys, maybe the start in the AHL helped them get their mojo and their confidence going and now they're reading for the big time. Tatar, on the other hand should have started from the jump and I would have waived Sammy from day 1. But, then again, maybe Tatar is playing angry.

 

Without being able to go back in time and prevent some of the injuries we have had (Z, Pav, Mule, DD, Helm, Alfe, Howie all have missed plenty of games) I don't know how many more wins we would have.

 

Maybe the Vets got the benefit of the doubt for longer than they deserved, but what's done is and done. At the very least we can be happy that they're making a better effort to keep the best players on the ice. I mean how many people would have thought, or even requested, that Jurco be playing over Cleary. Nyquist sure, but Jurco? AWESOME!

 

How many people thought Riley would be this badass? Now its like he can't we sent down.

 

Anyways, we need wins. And if we can keep winning then I believe we are going to keep as many of the GR guys up as possible.



#29 dirtydangles

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:56 AM

Going back to how this thread started...

 

I do think we would have been better served starting the season playing the younger guys more and scratching the vets, but I don't know by how much. With the GR guys, maybe the start in the AHL helped them get their mojo and their confidence going and now they're reading for the big time. Tatar, on the other hand should have started from the jump and I would have waived Sammy from day 1. But, then again, maybe Tatar is playing angry.

 

Without being able to go back in time and prevent some of the injuries we have had (Z, Pav, Mule, DD, Helm, Alfe, Howie all have missed plenty of games) I don't know how many more wins we would have.

 

Maybe the Vets got the benefit of the doubt for longer than they deserved, but what's done is and done. At the very least we can be happy that they're making a better effort to keep the best players on the ice. I mean how many people would have thought, or even requested, that Jurco be playing over Cleary. Nyquist sure, but Jurco? AWESOME!

 

How many people thought Riley would be this badass? Now its like he can't we sent down.

 

Anyways, we need wins. And if we can keep winning then I believe we are going to keep as many of the GR guys up as possible.

The team is actually exciting to watch now. I used to just know what was going to happen out there with Bert and Cleary making the same halfhearted plays in the offensive zone and no creativity whatsoever. Now we play with speed and things happen out there if you look away for a quick second. Obviously or D is hurting but that happens when you have young guys playing all over the place - but at least they have the legs left to back check regularly and will learn with time. 

 

Sheahan has got to be my favourite young gun along with Nyquist. I was so down on Riley after the DUI last year that I didn't think he deserved to pull on a Wings sweater - but god has he changed my mind to the point where I am the biggest Sheahan fanboy out there.


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#30 Buppy

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 02:26 AM

...I was so down on Riley after the DUI last year that I didn't think he deserved to pull on a Wings sweater - but god has he changed my mind to the point where I am the biggest Sheahan fanboy out there.

So basically... It's ok to drive drunk if you're good at hockey? :tounge2:



#31 GoalieManPat

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:43 AM

So basically... It's ok to drive drunk if you're good at hockey? :tounge2:

 

But only if wearing a teletubby costume! Thats the key.



#32 dirtydangles

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

So basically... It's ok to drive drunk if you're good at hockey? :tounge2:

Of course not. I'm only a fanboy of his on-ice play  :clap:


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#33 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 10:57 AM

 

You have a standard for apples and you have a standard for oranges.... except apples and oranges are actually both players on the Detroit Red Wings.  There is a double standard.  Weiss gets a pass for sucking and Sammy/Cleary/Bert don't. 

 

Except you're ignoring all the facts about age and injuries while covering your ears with your hands and shouting "NOT LISTENING!"



#34 joesuffP

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 04:32 PM

It's so funny that Holland believed Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Alfredsson and Kronwall wasn't enough veteran presence for this team

#35 roboturner

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 08:52 PM

It's so funny that Holland believed Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Alfredsson and Kronwall wasn't enough veteran presence for this team

Yeah I didn't really get this mindset either. There is more than enough Vet presence on the ice and in the locker room. Absolutely no need to resign a broken down Cleary for those roles. Lets just thank the Universe Cleary turned down that rumored initial offer of 3 YEARS and who cares whatever dollar amount it was!

 

The kids have proven what a dangerous team this can be with them on it and it shouldn't have taken half the season and a TON of injuries to ice the best possible line-up.


This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#36 barabbas16

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 02:49 PM

barabbas, what's the issue? Weiss was hurt from the get-go, essentially. The other three have been mostly healthy. That distinction alone warrants different standards. I mean, sure, Weiss has been a disappointment. And, sure, it's true that he hasn't really done anything to distinguish himself from the other three. But we can be pretty sure that that's because he was playing through an injury. So, Weiss gets an asterisk, whereas the others are simply too old. Granted, it's not their fault that they're old.

 

Dabura, there is no issue.  I just don't see it the same way.  And, I was trying to spark a friendly debate on the subject so I could understand the opposite point of view.  I think I've got it now, but I still disagree.

 

Thanks.







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